Scruples or Not?

[JoeFreedom]

Over the past few years, I have been seeking a deeper understanding of my faith, the Catholic religion, and walking with Jesus and trying to remove any activity of sin. I believe strongly in heaven, hell and purgatory. I was growing stronger in my faith and as I did, I started to realize all of the things I was doing that were wrong (sin), but I knew that Jesus died on the cross to pay the debt for my sins.

With prayer and the Holy Spirit, I have been able to stop the actions, at least the major ones, the mortal sins, and have been to confession to repent for those actions and seek forgiveness from God. I have truly changed for the better.

But then as I kept studying, reading, praying, growing deeper in my faith, I started to realize that there is no way I can ever be good enough to go to heaven, ever. Ever.

Over the past few months I’ve delved deeper into my depression, angst, worry and pure fear that what I’m doing is a sin. I feel that there is no possible way I can stop the thoughts in my head. It is very easy to stop actions of sinning, (e.g.: stealing things, shooting someone), but thoughts just happen.

I know the devil knows I am very weak when it comes to the temptation of women and sex. I am getting physically ill at times with this because I can’t seem to control it. Let me explain.

When I see a woman, almost and nearly every and any woman, my mind simply strays to sex. Not necessarily with that woman, but thoughts of sex, thoughts of “she’s attractive” and that I want to admire her, or sometimes, “body parts” (e.g.: breasts, etc.) just pop into my head if I look at a woman and it is worse when the woman is attractive. Woman are everywhere (obviously), at work, on television, etc. Even when a woman is modestly dressed, I still will unintentionally look at a woman and say to myself, wow, she has a nice body, or again, thoughts like “mmm breasts” will pop into my head. I turn away, and I try not to look, but the thoughts are still there. It’s really bad if I’m watching something on t.v. (I don’t watch shows that are intentionally sinful, {I like educational and scientific shows, etc}) but commercials come on and there are is commercial about a beach with women in bathing suits and all my mind does is think “sex, women, mmmm”. It doesn’t have to be that is directed at them, but I’m worried simply that this thought is in my head, it was caused by that woman.

I’ve been to confession over and over on this and I don’t know whether or not I’m slipping into lust (which is defined as desire) and thus adultery and thus a mortal sin and thus I’m going to hell. Desire is so ambiguous. Of course these women are attractive, or the woman in the bathing suit or nice body (even modestly dressed) are desirable. But knowing that they are desirable, or thinking “mmmm” she’s hot, or having these thoughts, I believe that they are lustful.

The moment I get out of confession, I feel like I start mortally sinning again, and thus when I take the sacrament of the eucharist, I am then again in mortal sin, because I have unconfessed thoughts.

The father keeps telling me to say a prayer for those woman who are immodestly dressed, but what about the ones that aren’t? I can’t work, because I feel like I am just in a state of constant mortal sin.

I’m losing my faith because of this. I’m mean, why would God create women for us and not realize that we men are attracted to them? How can any man and woman not feel lust for each other when they are attracted to each other? If we are to get married, how is this even possible? I feel like I’ve been set up for total failure and thinking that is another mortal sin because I’m questioning God’s plan. I can’t win! If I can’t win, what’s the point?

 

[sscott]

Speak to your priest about scrupulosity. It is a psychiatric condition for which you need help. Let your priest assist you with this problem before it gets worse.

 

[Inquiringperson]

Over the past few years, I have been seeking a deeper understanding of my faith, the Catholic religion, and walking with Jesus and trying to remove any activity of sin. I believe strongly in heaven, hell and purgatory. I was growing stronger in my faith and as I did, I started to realize all of the things I was doing that were wrong (sin), but I knew that Jesus died on the cross to pay the debt for my sins.

With prayer and the Holy Spirit, I have been able to stop the actions, at least the major ones, the mortal sins, and have been to confession to repent for those actions and seek forgiveness from God. I have truly changed for the better.

But then as I kept studying, reading, praying, growing deeper in my faith, I started to realize that there is no way I can ever be good enough to go to heaven, ever. Ever.

Over the past few months I’ve delved deeper into my depression, angst, worry and pure fear that what I’m doing is a sin. I feel that there is no possible way I can stop the thoughts in my head. It is very easy to stop actions of sinning, (e.g.: stealing things, shooting someone), but thoughts just happen.

I know the devil knows I am very weak when it comes to the temptation of women and sex. I am getting physically ill at times with this because I can’t seem to control it. Let me explain.

When I see a woman, almost and nearly every and any woman, my mind simply strays to sex. Not necessarily with that woman, but thoughts of sex, thoughts of “she’s attractive” and that I want to admire her, or sometimes, “body parts” (e.g.: breasts, etc.) just pop into my head if I look at a woman and it is worse when the woman is attractive. Woman are everywhere (obviously), at work, on television, etc. Even when a woman is modestly dressed, I still will unintentionally look at a woman and say to myself, wow, she has a nice body, or again, thoughts like “mmm breasts” will pop into my head. I turn away, and I try not to look, but the thoughts are still there. It’s really bad if I’m watching something on t.v. (I don’t watch shows that are intentionally sinful, {I like educational and scientific shows, etc}) but commercials come on and there are is commercial about a beach with women in bathing suits and all my mind does is think “sex, women, mmmm”. It doesn’t have to be that is directed at them, but I’m worried simply that this thought is in my head, it was caused by that woman.

I’ve been to confession over and over on this and I don’t know whether or not I’m slipping into lust (which is defined as desire) and thus adultery and thus a mortal sin and thus I’m going to hell. Desire is so ambiguous. Of course these women are attractive, or the woman in the bathing suit or nice body (even modestly dressed) are desirable. But knowing that they are desirable, or thinking “mmmm” she’s hot, or having these thoughts, I believe that they are lustful.

The moment I get out of confession, I feel like I start mortally sinning again, and thus when I take the sacrament of the eucharist, I am then again in mortal sin, because I have unconfessed thoughts.

The father keeps telling me to say a prayer for those woman who are immodestly dressed, but what about the ones that aren’t? I can’t work, because I feel like I am just in a state of constant mortal sin.

I’m losing my faith because of this. I’m mean, why would God create women for us and not realize that we men are attracted to them? How can any man and woman not feel lust for each other when they are attracted to each other? If we are to get married, how is this even possible? I feel like I’ve been set up for total failure and thinking that is another mortal sin because I’m questioning God’s plan. I can’t win! If I can’t win, what’s the point?

I believe it would be best for you to set up an appointment with a priest that you trust.

 

[Nogginer]

Remember that three conditions have to be met to commit mortal sin:
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

Perhaps the condition of deliberate consent is not met in your lustful thoughts. Only you and God can know. We cannot control every thought that enters our minds. Sometimes thoughts just pop up into our brains without us wanting to think them. Sin is in the will, so as long as you do not fully consent to the thoughts, welcoming them, entertaining them, and enjoying them, you do not commit mortal sin. Perhaps you feel some pleasure from those thoughts, but even then, so long as you do not fully desire to think them, there is no mortal sin. In fact, it may not be a sin at all. If you feel some pleasure but do not consent to it at all, then it is merely a temptation, and not even a venial sin.

The instant you realize you are thinking sinful thoughts, pray a quick prayer, asking God to help you and deliver you from the temptation, then immediately turn your mind to focus on something else. If you do that, you can be sure there is no mortal sin. By the way, focusing on something else to take your mind off the thoughts is oftentimes more effective than merely trying not to think them. Its hard to be free of the thoughts when we are trying not to think about them, because while trying not to think of them we may accidentally think of them more. If I tell you “Don’t think about trees” you will probably start involuntarily thinking about trees. But do not worry, if this happens, so long as you do not fully consent to sinful thoughts and wish you were rid of them, there is no mortal sin.

As the other posters suggested, it would help to talk to a good priest.

Whether the thoughts are mortal sins or not, keep praying, and God will help you through this. You said God delivered you from many of your sins, then why should these lustful thoughts be too big for Him to handle? Remember: “Nothing is impossible with God”. He’s carried you this far, and He can carry you through this next problem. Don’t lose hope!

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Recall that there are three conditions for mortal sin. For thoughts that you don’t explicitly consent to and dwell on, full consent of will is not there. For at least some of the thoughts you mentioned, grave matter isn’t there. It is not sinful to notice a woman’s beauty. Of course, as far as I am aware, pretty much every male experiences unintentional thoughts that would be sinful to dwell on occasionally, but be sure you’re not exaggerating the gravity of what is going on.

I would join in the others in suggesting you speak to your priest again, but with an emphasis on asking him to help you determine what is lustful and what is not, especially to the degree of mortal sin.

 

[Bookcat]

A few points.

The fact that one happened to notice a beautiful or attractive girl or even a well proportioned person- does not mean one has sinned. Let alone lusted (set aside your general dictionary - rather turn to theology for theological definitions). And attraction is different than lust.

The fact that a thought went through your mind - that it “happened” to you automatically when you happened to see an attractive girl does not mean one has sinned.

All sorts of thoughts can happen to us out of the blue…

The fact that a thought happened to one- does not mean per se there was any sin.

Though something may be a temptation that one needs to avoid - but we cannot remove all temptation from being around us - remote occasions will always be there.

And for mortal sin one needs not only grave matter, but full knowledge and deliberate (complete) consent…

(though some need some medical/professional assistance in this area…such as medication etc for they deal with OCD etc -I am not saying you are but I add this for readers)​

Now…

For the next few moments --try real hard NOT to think of an Apple.

…then scroll down.

What did you think of?

An apple.

Even though your will was against it -you did not want to think of an apple.

Try hard not to think of something - can rather bring it to mind - and fear of something can make it worse. This one will find not only in modern works but ancient spiritual works.

The best thing to do with such thoughts is not to fight them directly --not fear that they will come—simply *do not consent *and simply and calmly turn to something else…(or it may be best to keep doing the good thing one is doing…like they come out of the blue when your at work …keep working …etc)

(one can gently - conversi ad Dominum - turn towards the Lord -perhaps with an act of love or a short prayer which is a very ancient practice - pm me if you if you need more).

Ignore such unwanted thoughts like one would ignore a hissing goose or a barking dog. One does not stop to argue with a hissing goose or a barking dog does one? No one keeps on walking…and at most laughs at them…

(as noted above the image there comes from a Carthusian Monk from centuries ago…)

If one sees an attractive girl - remember first she is a person - “wow she is beautiful” Or “she is attractive” or “Praise God for all beauty” …and generally - keep walking.

And one needs a reasonable custodia occculorum (custody of the eyes). Is important. But it needs to be a reasonable and prudent exercise. Like looking calmly away from persons who are rather immodestly dressed etc. Such is particularly important at in places like the beach. But I mean calmly…without stress without undue fear. One can be quick and calm at the same time.

And if you used the term - scruples - if scruples become a struggle - get a regular confessor - that is the age old practice in the Church. He can assess if you do and direct you. Even if for only a short time for they may be “transient scruples”.

(feel free to pm me if I can be of further help).

 

[brigid12]

When those thoughts come to you, pray a “Hail Mary”, a “Memorare”, a Hail Holy Queen or some other prayer to our Mother. She will always help you with impurity.

 

[JoeFreedom]

I used to believe that all that was needed for salvation was belief in Jesus Christ, belief that He is the Son of God and that He gave His life for our salvation. I thought that is all that was necessary. I called myself a Christian. We are saved if we believed. I believed. I still believe that. Maybe?

Then I became Catholic. And Catholicism is the one true faith. But Catholicism is more right than I am, so I must be wrong.

Now the more I study Catholicism, the more I find it is all about confession to a priest. Damned if do something wrong during the week and can’t find a priest before I die. Oh well, too bad, now I’m doomed. I can’t believe God would be so cruel like that. I never used to believe that. But somehow, with everything I’ve now heard, especially a lot of stuff I read here…

Sure, as I studied, I realized how much sinning I was doing, and of course, that was an enlightening experience, and through that experience, I’ve stopped doing many actions that God considers sinful.

But the more I study, the more I realize that Catholicism is much more than that. I think most of us think we are okay, when we really are not. Just look at any list of mortal sins (here’s one site: followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php) and I’ve probably done half these. But the problem is that I didn’t even know I was doing them. Take lying. We’ve all done it. But I thought as long as I didn’t break the 10 commandments, I was okay. But when it’s all broken down like that, we mortally sin all the time! I would have to be expected to know all of these (and I’m sure someone will tell me that is the case, and that is what I believe)… ignorance of the law (or commandments) is no excuse.

Pretty much anything and everything is considered a sin and how it is interpreted I don’t know. The rules that have been set up are impossible to follow and are setting us for failure.

The bible is pretty clear on what it says. God’s word is infallible and so if it is written it is true.

There are passages that say acting foolish is sinful, eating too much is gluttony and that is a deadly sin, and if I despise someone for almost running me off the road, I’ve probably committed another litany of sins.

Staring at a woman for too long, that is a sin, because at that point, I’ve now lusted. Can’t go to a beach ever again. Can’t ever go to a pool. Too many women dressed in scantily bikinis. Too much temptation. Most of those people doomed to hell. Taking too long of a look they are. God says that once treasure finds us, we should sell everything and follow it. If I am too do that, I interpret that as drop everything and follow Jesus and get rid of anything that could cause temptation (also: if the eye tempts us, cut it out, if the hand tempts us, cut it off)… get rid of temptation: television, computer, don’t go out, do think, don’t talk… all could cause temptation and sin.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Since I was not raised Catholic (baptized Catholic, then family converted to Lutheran while I was 3, confirmed Lutheran, then RCIA and confirmed Catholic ~7-8 years ago.) But really didn’t start coming truly to the Lord until a year ago.

With that said. Grave matter (lust is a grave matter), full knowledge (I know that I know that it is a sin to look and feel attracted, even get a sense of happiness at her attractiveness) and complete consent (look away, then look back because I know she is attractive and want to look because she is attractive).

Not mortal sin?

It is true that He has helped me through other things and get past them. And my priest has advised me to say a prayer for them, but all I would ever do all day long is pray. I have to work… He also told me that now that I am realizing a deeper understanding of my faith, I also see how flawed I am, and that is causing me distress. But that doesn’t mean it’s okay what I’m doing. God’s word is His word and just because I struggle with it doesn’t make it okay. And this whole thing about how Catholicism works is got me all stressed out. If I never converted, I probably wouldn’t worry about it and instead, just give it up to God to take care of. But now I have all these Catholic rules.

 

[janiruchan]

Since I was not raised Catholic (baptized Catholic, then family converted to Lutheran while I was 3, confirmed Lutheran, then RCIA and confirmed Catholic ~7-8 years ago.) But really didn’t start coming truly to the Lord until a year ago.

With that said. Grave matter (lust is a grave matter), full knowledge (I know that I know that it is a sin to look and feel attracted, even get a sense of happiness at her attractiveness) and complete consent (look away, then look back because I know she is attractive and want to look because she is attractive).

Not mortal sin?

It is true that He has helped me through other things and get past them. And my priest has advised me to say a prayer for them, but all I would ever do all day long is pray. I have to work… He also told me that now that I am realizing a deeper understanding of my faith, I also see how flawed I am, and that is causing me distress. But that doesn’t mean it’s okay what I’m doing. God’s word is His word and just because I struggle with it doesn’t make it okay. And this whole thing about how Catholicism works is got me all stressed out. If I never converted, I probably wouldn’t worry about it and instead, just give it up to God to take care of. But now I have all these Catholic rules.

i**t is much a greater to sin to underestimate the love and mercy of God. **The cross was not given to us to weigh us down but to show to us that greater than our sin is the Love and mercy of God.Focus on the love of God and not your sins…You are a work in progress…St Therese of the child Jesus comments that despair and hopelessness are subtle forms of pride, trust in oneself and impatience. If you want to be better, change and treasure every steps. Change your attitude towards the cross. Perhaps you have to be more forgiving and loving to yourself. Perhaps you need to ask for more grace from God, especially patience, humility and docility…
The Lord doesn’t tire forgiving us, it is us who easily get tired of asking for forgiveness from God (Pope Francis) You dont become holy in an instant Anyhow, it’s still a great grace to be knowledgeable and conscious of your sins…you’re pretty much in the way. Any saint would say they sin everyday, but they dont focus on the fall but in rising…That’s why persevere in your prayer life…are you serving the Church? perhaps try also to focus your energy in pleasing God through works rather than analyzing yourself everyday…The world needs your prayer…I tell you. God already knows you are sinful so dont keep on repeating your self-accusation…it’s not helping you or the world.

 

[Bookcat]

But the more I study, the more I realize that Catholicism is much more than that. I think most of us think we are okay, when we really are not. Just look at any list of mortal sins (here’s one site: followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php) and I’ve probably done half these.

That site is not one to recommend (I would not use it) - so I would look elsewhere for your formation.

 

[Bookcat]

With that said. Grave matter (lust is a grave matter), full knowledge (I know that I know that it is a sin to look and feel attracted, even get a sense of happiness at her attractiveness) and complete consent (look away, then look back because I know she is attractive and want to look because she is attractive).

Not mortal sin?

For the future - no. Not from what you note there as it reads.

Such would be a scruple.

(you can address what has happened in the past with ones confessor - tell him your confusion when you confess what happened in the past)

Now if one engages with full knowledge and complete consent in lustful thoughts or seeks to arouse oneself deliberately – that sort of thing is grave matter. But just to notice an attractive person - even if one deliberately notices again is not per se lust.

Read again my long post above.

And I will add:

Catechism: 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes. scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Jimmy Akin senior apologist at Catholic Answers:

"Jesus said…:

You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart [Matt. 5:27-28].

Translated a bit more literally, he singled out those who look at a woman “to lust after her.” (i.e., purposefully looking at her in order to incite lustful fantasies, not just looking at her and feeling attraction.)"

Dr. Peter Kreeft - famous quite orthodox Catholic Philosopher:

"Most people misunderstand the meaning of the word lust. They think it simply means strong sexual desire, or passion. And since that is natural and normal, they think Christianity teaches that something natural and normal is sinful.

But lust does not mean simply sexual desire, but deliberately inflaming your sexual desire for a woman or man who is not your wife or husband, or deliberately planning co commit adultery with them…

We are justly praised or blamed only for the good or evil things we freely choose, not for feelings and instincts that arise without our free choice. For instance, when you see a very attractive person of the opposite sex, your head naturally turns and your heart beats fast. That is not lust. But if you start to command your mind to fantasize about what it would feel like to go to bed with that person, that is lust."

From pg 95-96 “Your Questions God’s Answers” Ignatius Press.

Yes - men commit mortal sins by looking lustfully at women. Yes that happens. Such is a mortal sin (grave matter - and mortal sin if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent).

One can yes sin mortally (gravely -same thing) interiorly and even in looking at a person -but that is when there is lust. Sexual attraction is not per se lust.

Giving with full knowledge - complete consent to sexual thoughts and desires. That is lust. Seeking or consenting to sexual pleasure outside of marriage - that is lust.

A good regular confessor can help you work on these things.

If one sees an attractive girl - remember first she is a person - “wow she is beautiful” Or “she is attractive” or “Praise God for all beauty” …and generally - keep walking.

And one needs a reasonable custodia occculorum (custody of the eyes). Is important. But it needs to be a reasonable and prudent exercise. Like looking calmly away from persons who are rather immodestly dressed etc. Such is particularly important at in places like the beach ( and yes do not stare at women in bikini’s that can yes lead to lust). But I mean calmly…without stress without undue fear.* One can be quick and calm at the same time*. It is important yes to know yourself and know how to look away. And it is important not to confuse simple attraction with the grave sin of lust.

 

[Bookcat]

There are passages that say acting foolish is sinful, eating too much is gluttony and that is a deadly sin

Reason, the virtue of temperance, and good judgement of conscience can guide one in ones eating. Though it is to be noted that what is contrary to temperance for one is not for another and as at least one Saint reminds us–this is a area that is a difficult one where many struggle.

Also note that often one is dealing with venial sin --not serious (an example of serious gluttony is loosing ones reason via being drunk…). It is important to note this for some get confused on this subject.

We should seek to live by virtue here and to eat reasonably…

Individual acts of overeating…intemperance (gluttony in this sense) are ordinarily a “venial matter” for venial sin…

(Now certain uncorrected habits that cause at least in the short term -serious problems -can become grave…like perhaps your doctor tells you if you keep eating 7 pieces of cake a day you will seriously harm your health or drop dead in three months…)

A confessor can assist one.

 

[Bookcat]

Take lying. We’ve all done it. But I thought as long as I didn’t break the 10 commandments, I was okay. But when it’s all broken down like that, we mortally sin all the time!

Note too that lying is yes sinful but most often not mortal but venial. Not that such makes it ok - of course not - (and truth is very important) but it is important to understand the difference between grave matter (murder, adultery and other sexual sins, knocking off a bank, deciding to murder someone, abortion, etc) and venial matters. Yes we will sin venially even daily -for which we pray “forgive us our trespasses…” in the Lords Prayer daily or some other way of prayer and contrition (venial sins can be forgiven in many many ways) and yes we seek to avoid such and repent of course - but also it is important in your conversion to come to understand the difference. Often those who come to a new profound encounter with Christ and conversion within the Church can have a bit of vertigo about sin - and can have even “transient scruples” that need to be cleared up. It is important to have a regular confessor to meet with who knows you and can guide you. And of course to use solid resources like the Catechism and the Compendium of the Catechism etc.

 

[WestonGrant]

Based on what you’re saying, you seem to be suffering from scrupulosity. Guilt that leads you to want to be better and repent is from God. Guilt that leads to despair and giving up (which sounds an awful lot like what you’re describing) is not from God.

Having impure thoughts that “pop into your head” is not a sin. When you dwell on them intentionally and derive satisfaction from them, then you begin to own them and your free will is making a choice. At that point, more sin is involved.

But the Church also recognizes that habits of behavior can lessen your culpability for such sins.

In the end, it helps to know what kind of person you are. Do you tend to feel guilty and ashamed too easily? Or do you tend to think you never do anything wrong? You sound like the former, not the latter.

And people who tend to feel too guilty and ashamed need to give themselves a break or else they’ll fall into a much worse sin: despair. This is a sin against hope. It leads to not seeking reconciliation any longer and THAT can certainly cut a person off from God.

Don’t fall into that. You need to find a good confessor and/or spiritual director.

Hang in there.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Sorry all for not responding. My Internet at home has gone “toast” and so I am responding discretely at work. I appreciate all of the responses.

I have an appointment to see the Father after work today…

 

[lucia_kay]

Hi, I don’t know if anyone has suggested this to you yet, but the book, “searching for and maintaining peace” is very helpful for anxiety and scruples. My conformation sponsor suggested it to me about a month ago, and I have been so blessed to read it. I hope this helps.