Scrupulosity, religious OCD or something else?

[Monica4316]

Do you pray the rosary? I mean, by yourself, as a regular devotion?

If not, I strongly suggest that you do so. If you are experiencing a spiritual attack in addition to mental issues, it will help with that. But more than that, perhaps the gentle, loving Mother of God can help you move past your fear and understand Jesus as He really is. I recommend that while you pray each mystery, you meditate on how that particular mystery manifests God’s mercy and humility.

For instance, the Annunciation - meditate on the fact that God asked Mary if she would accept the Son of God in her womb, He did not force or coerce her in any way, no threats, etc. Meditate on the extraordinary humility of God in submitting Himself to Mary’s will and then in becoming a tiny, helpless unborn child in the her womb.

For the Wedding at Cana, meditate on the fact that, again, Jesus obeyed His mother in making the wine out of water - and that He did it in kindness to the married couple and the wedding guests. He *wanted *them to celebrate and have a good time!

And so on, for each of them.

I also think you need to see a good therapist. No one should have to suffer the mental anguish you are suffering, and it is not a normal part of religious belief.

 

[uglygal]

There probably is an evil spirit influencing you, judging from your thoughts and words directed at Jesus. I don’t know if you’re possessed, but you probably are being influenced and spiritually attacked.

Why would God allow this? For all these years?
What does he get from me being attacked and my misery?

 

[uglygal]

I’d like to help you with one part of what you said, uglygal. If you accidentally don’t believe what the Church does on some matter, that isn’t going to send you to Hell. Only if you purposely reject what the Church teaches are you at risk.

I do, deep down in my conscience and heart, reject alot of things.
I reject that there is no salvation outside of the church
I reject that human souls are saved by the blood of Christ
I reject the pope is infallible

so I am at risk?

 

[Monica4316]

Why would God allow this? For all these years?
What does he get from me being attacked and my misery?

don’t believe that God is allowing this cause He likes to see you suffer! that is not true at all! He is allowing this for your growth. Trials NEVER make sense while we’re in them. Maybe He’s just waiting for this lesson to be over the more you trust Him, the sooner it will be over, because maybe the whole lesson is in trust? remember it’s a choice.

I do, deep down in my conscience and heart, reject alot of things.
I reject that there is no salvation outside of the church
I reject that human souls are saved by the blood of Christ
I reject the pope is infallible

so I am at risk?

I think that might give an opportunity for the devil to attack you further.
but there might be some misunderstanding too…

The Church doesn’t teach that only Catholics will be saved… that’s not what ‘salvation is only in the Church’ means. What it means is that graces that we need for salvation come to God through the Church, in the Sacraments… and in the teachings… and we have access to fulness of truth… but the graces can reach those who are not in perfect communion with the Church too, like Protestants. They are united to it through their Baptism but not in perfect union. They can also be saved.

Believing in salvation through Christ is fundamental to the faith. I suggest you read more about this and pray. If Christ’s Blood can not save us, what can? God is the only one who is just and righteous enough to offer a sacrifice for sin… but He doesn’t need to and only a human can do it… so God becomes a Man and dies for us and offers Himself to the Father for us… this perfect act of love atones for ALL sins

If you have trouble with Papal infallibility, meditate on Peter being the ‘rock’ and receiving the keys to the Kingdom. Maybe this would help: catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp

God bless

 

[beckycmarie]

Why would God allow this? For all these years?
What does he get from me being attacked and my misery?

I know this must be next to impossible to understand right now, but in the end, all of this suffering will work for your own good (Romans 8:28).

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him.”

I’ll post links to the Seven Steps to Self-Deliverance and Spiritual Warfare Prayer Catalog, but I really think you need to be under the guidance of a priest and a good psychologist or therapist.

Seven Steps to Self-Deliverance

Spiritual Warfare Prayer Catalog

You also might try the Prayer for Inner Healing and Prayer for Deliverance, both by Fr. Gabriele Amorth, Exorcist of Rome. They can be found on this page.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

My advice would be not to stop believing. It will not make you happier. I have some scruples myself, however, no matter how bad they get I can honestly say I have a much better life than before I believed. If there were no consequences for not believing, I would still choose it, it gives you such a better life.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

If you think you might have OCD, make an appointment for a psychiatric evaluation. Don’t just go to any therapist or counselor. Unless they are a licensed psychologist or a psychiatrist, they will not be qualified to make a diagnosis nor to provide the specialized treatment OCD requires. Try to find a treatment center that specializes in OCD or anxiety disorders. If you do have OCD, it is a medical condition and it can be controlled.

 

[uglygal]

In what way have you turned your heart toward Him? What have you done so far in pursuing a relationship with Him, just to clarify?

I turned my heart to Him completely. It all began ten years ago (ten years ago this year - maybe its coming full circle?)

I believed in Him sooo much. I don’t know how to put into words the depth and breadth of my faith in Him.
I went to Church often, very often, I prayed everyday, i consecrated myself to Him with so many consecrations, I spent months scouring the internet just looking for information on Jesus and how to be better for him, I went to Eucharistic adoration, prayer meetings, charismatic prayer meetings, I prayed the rosary, I isolated myself from the world to be unworldy, I practiced hate of self, When I was 19 I investigated many many communities so that I could become a nun for Jesus. Several years later I dedicated my effort and time to trying to establish a religious community for him.

Then one day I woke up, my eyes opened. And I saw that all my efforts, all my love, all the time I had spent for Him had been wasted.

(Some prior posts
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=200801
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217121)

I prayed the rosary alot then. Why did Mary not protect me? She was a goddess for me, infallible, perfect, so loved by God and I wanted to be like that. Loved by God.
Why did she let me fall so far and so hard?
For gods greater glory?
What of Jesus? I was left as a nobody, with no vocation, no calling to be a nun, no divine mission, just nothing. And it hurt!

It hurts still. It broke my heart.
I broke my heart (and consequently my life) in pursuing a relationship with him.

Then I came across the writings of St Therese Lisieux. They impressed me, and then I learned of the novena and how St Therese promised she would give a rose.
I scoured the net for more information and found all these stories of a lady who needed a carpenter and prayed to St Therese, and asked for a pink rose and then got one. And another so and so who needed a job or to find a hairdresser or just wanted to test if the novena worked and got roses from her. At times they could even pick the colour and number of roses. It was a novena that “was never know to fail”

So I did it. I wanted St Therese to ask Jesus if he loved me and to give me a rose as a sign of his love.
I never got one.
As dumb as it may sound that drove a knife through my heart and ripped it apart. That hurt. It hurt so much. It still hurts. :bighanky:
I still at times cry myself to sleep, why didn’t I get a rose?
He could have given me a rose if he wanted to. But he chose not to.
He spat on me.
It still hurts very deeply. It always will.

And i struggle how you all just excuse him. Oh he’s god he can do what he wants.
he hurt me very deeply. And he can just do it. WHY??
Don’t bother answering, I already know the answer. he is god so he can do what he wants. he has mercy on whoever he wants and there’s nothing you can do about it.
But it hurts. He broke my heart.
That’s why I’m afraid, that why I’m depressed.
Whilst I look at those who hurt me in His name, those who abused me and spread lies about me - they are always loved by him. Always so confident in his love for them. They never tried as hard as I did but they are good.

The only words I can think of from the Bible that I can relate to and sum up my experience of Him are Romans 9.

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—***in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, **bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? *23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ "[j]
**

 

[exoflare]

He could have given me a rose if he wanted to. But he chose not to.
He spat on me.

“You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.”

 

[Monica4316]

I’m very sorry you are going through this I wish I could say something that would help…

In your other post you mentioned the jansenist heresy… there’s a reason it’s a heresy! I don’t think Jesus is like how you described Him… I think as you were advancing spiritually, the devil started putting lies into your heart to get you to doubt His love for you… you don’t have to be perfect for Jesus to love you! He loves you as you are… first we realize His love, then we become perfected…

I don’t know why all this happened to you, but I’ve had many times too when I didn’t get answers to prayers… when I begged God to answer me and nothing happened, but I kept on begging until He did… it sometimes takes so much perseverence, we can’t give up! And then I saw that it took so long because that’s how we grow in virtue…

Remember how Jesus felt forsaken by God on the Cross? Have you ever considered His suffering? He didn’t only suffer physically… but spiritually and emotionally as well. He suffered more than any of us in that hour. He is one with the Father and felt forsaken.

Was He forsaken? NO! Then He rose to life on the third day and ascended into Heaven…

Neither are you forsaken! don’t believe that
I’ve gone through times of feeling completely rejected by God, like He doesn’t want me, doesn’t want to have mercy on me… but we come out of those times if we don’t despair and lose faith! it’s the devil who wants us to despair… we have strength when we believe

regarding your vocation… there are Saints who were VERY close to God and weren’t religious. They even considered Christ their Spouse but they weren’t religious. It doesn’t mean that God loves you less!

I’m familiar with the St Therese novena… the point of it is not to receive a rose. The point is to ask St Therese to pray for you. She prayed for me many times when I didn’t receive roses or any signs.

:hug1:

 

[Monica4316]

So I did it. I wanted St Therese to ask Jesus if he loved me and to give me a rose as a sign of his love.
I never got one.

what if this is because He already gave you a much greater sign of His love? look at the Crucifix… that is greater than a rose… if you were the only person in the world, He still would have died for you. That is the greatest sign of God’s love! Christ is the invisible God made visible to us…He shows us what God is like. What is He like? He lets His creatures murder Him in order to save them

 

[Student09]

I turned my heart to Him completely. It all began ten years ago (ten years ago this year - maybe its coming full circle?)

I believed in Him sooo much. I don’t know how to put into words the depth and breadth of my faith in Him.
I went to Church often, very often, I prayed everyday, i consecrated myself to Him with so many consecrations, I spent months scouring the internet just looking for information on Jesus and how to be better for him, I went to Eucharistic adoration, prayer meetings, charismatic prayer meetings, I prayed the rosary, I isolated myself from the world to be unworldy, I practiced hate of self, When I was 19 I investigated many many communities so that I could become a nun for Jesus. Several years later I dedicated my effort and time to trying to establish a religious community for him.

Then one day I woke up, my eyes opened. And I saw that all my efforts, all my love, all the time I had spent for Him had been wasted.

What do you mean they were wasted. What were you trying to achieve? What were you hoping for?

These are all outward actions that you have listed but there is nothing mentioned about the inward dispositions that led to the actions. Jesus looks at the heart, not the actions. As many saints have said, He has no need of our works - only our love.

 

[beckycmarie]

Then one day I woke up, my eyes opened. And I saw that all my efforts, all my love, all the time I had spent for Him had been wasted.

I think one day you were deceived, and you gave into the deception.

Then I came across the writings of St Therese Lisieux. . . . It was a novena that “was never know to fail”

So I did it. I wanted St Therese to ask Jesus if he loved me and to give me a rose as a sign of his love.
I never got one.
As dumb as it may sound that drove a knife through my heart and ripped it apart. That hurt. It hurt so much. It still hurts. :bighanky:
I still at times cry myself to sleep, why didn’t I get a rose?
He could have given me a rose if he wanted to. But he chose not to.
He spat on me.
It still hurts very deeply. It always will.

I hope your story will give pause to anyone reading this who has ever propagated one of these superstitious novenas “never been known to fail.” When they do fail, they can leave devastation in their wake when it involves a vulnerable soul.

The reason you didn’t get a rose is because the way this novena was presented was a superstitious lie. I know you can’t let go of all your hurt, but perhaps you can let go of the pain over this incident.

 

[Student09]

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—****in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, **bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? *23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ "[j]
*

You made a dismissive comment earlier about Aquinas, but this is exactly the sort of thing where Aquinas is so helpful. In the Summa Theologica he makes it very clear that God does not take away our free will. The “vessels of wrath” refers to people whom God created, knowing that they would reject Him. He is outside of time, so He knew everything they would do; He could have not created them, but He decided to create them even knowing the choice they would make. Why? Only God knows; there must have been some great good to come out of it. But He absolutely did not not not force them or in any way coerce them to make that choice. He created them with the human dignity of free will and allowed them to make their choice, in accordance with their human dignity.

It’s a difficult doctrine to understand for a variety of reasons, not least because we cannot truly conceptualize what it means to be in eternity, outside of time and yet inclusive of all time and creating in time … it’s interesting to think about.

 

[uglygal]

“You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.”

I did not put him to the test.

St Therese said she would send roses. the Catholic church endorses her, there are many testimonies of her sending roses on many websites (do a websearch for yourself) and she promised to send a rose AND the novena to her is never known to have failed.

I did not put god to the test. I believed what he said through his saint and his church.

I’m sorry if i come across as unpleasant. Every time I think and talk about this I feel like my head is going to explode uch:

 

[Student09]

I did not put him to the test.

St Therese said she would send roses. the Catholic church endorses her, there are many testimonies of her sending roses on many websites (do a websearch for yourself) and she promised to send a rose AND the novena to her is never known to have failed.

I did not put god to the test. I believed what he said through his saint and his church.

You are taking it too literally. Catholics on the internet say lots of things. Point me to a document written by the pope that says that everyone who prays the novena to St. Therese will get a rose.

St. Therese often used poetic and metaphorical language. She also referred to herself as a flower. Obviously, she was not a literal flower.

So, did you have any response to my post on Aquinas’ theology of reprobation …?

 

[aspirant]

If you think you might have OCD, make an appointment for a psychiatric evaluation. Don’t just go to any therapist or counselor. Unless they are a licensed psychologist or a psychiatrist, they will not be qualified to make a diagnosis nor to provide the specialized treatment OCD requires. Try to find a treatment center that specializes in OCD or anxiety disorders. If you do have OCD, it is a medical condition and it can be controlled.

I agree completely with this recommendation. I also strongly recommend a good spiritual director. This is a matter for professionals.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Dear Uglygal,

First of all, I want to say that I wish I knew you better. I can venture some thoughts on parts of what you said, but there is much depth to your story that I don’t understand.

I agree with aspirant and others who have posted here who have said finding a good psychologist and spiritual director would be the best option.

I am very sorry you have been suffering so much, and I’m certain that Jesus is sorrowful over this too. He never takes any pleasure in seeing anyone suffer. Never.

uglygal:

I believed in Him sooo much. I don’t know how to put into words the depth and breadth of my faith in Him.
I went to Church often, very often, I prayed everyday, i consecrated myself to Him with so many consecrations, I spent months scouring the internet just looking for information on Jesus and how to be better for him, I went to Eucharistic adoration, prayer meetings, charismatic prayer meetings, I prayed the rosary, I isolated myself from the world to be unworldy, I practiced hate of self, When I was 19 I investigated many many communities so that I could become a nun for Jesus. Several years later I dedicated my effort and time to trying to establish a religious community for him.

Then one day I woke up, my eyes opened. And I saw that all my efforts, all my love, all the time I had spent for Him had been wasted.

Do you think maybe you burned yourself out with striving too hard? You were putting so much energy into what was going on. I don’t know; I’m just wondering what you think. One of Jesus’ great desires is to bring us rest. The saints took time out to be quiet and they tried to rest themselves and find time for peace and silence. Jesus also, during His life on Earth, took time out to walk alone quietly in the hills with God so that He could just be quiet and rest after all His great works among the multitudes.

You were doing so much for God, I wonder if you were taking the time to really rest and just quiet yourself for a while. If I light a fire and set all the fuel ablaze immediately, but fail to add any more in, the fire will eventually fizzle. We need that rest and peace of mind. I don’t know what was going on in you though; I only offer this as a thought.

A second thought I had is about this “hate of self” and “isolation from the world” practice. This may be different from what you’ve previously thought, but we are called to love ourselves. Not our sins – we aren’t called to love that – but we as people are made in God’s Image and so are deeply, intrinsically valuable and deserving of love.

The “hatred of self” that the saints felt is not hatred of their whole selves but hatred of their sins, and they didn’t have to force that feeling through great effort of their own. It spilled into them naturally over time as a result of their love for God.

When you love brother or sister and offend them, it hurts you when you realize you’ve done wrong and you want to make reparations. That is the same with the love of God. You feel sorry for your sins and displeased with your sinful acts because you love God. And we don’t need to force that feeling if it doesn’t come spontaneously. We shouldn’t focus on it but on God and His love and mercy, and on thanking Him for the good things we know He has done for us in our lives.

I had a time in my Christian life where I fiercely condemned myself for each sin. I was miserable as a result. Later, I learned to instead focus on thanking God for His goodness rather than focusing on myself like that and condemning myself so horribly. My love of God greatly increased when I came to think that way. It’s much better for our hearts, and it is what God wants of us, for He wants us to live in love. You don’t need to hate yourself. You should love yourself, because you are God’s child and you should be loved .

Your username, “uglygal” even seems to reflect a self-image of hating the self. That isn’t what Jesus wants of us; He wants us to love ourselves (just not our faults), to love our neighbors and to love God. And to rest.

I sincerely believe you were misinterpreting Christian teachings about “hating the self.” This term is an extreme way of describing being sorry for our sins, which is all you’re called to do in this area. You don’t have to hate yourself and you should not hate yourself.

Another concern I had when I read what you just said is what you said about isolating yourself from the world. Some people are called to this, but are you really sure that you were? Because it might have caused you to form fewer relationships and friendships, and these can be avenues through which God’s love and peace can pour into people’s lives. Friendships, real, good friendships, are gifts for which we should thank God. They are good for us and healthy. They make us happier and at a spark into our lives. Christians are called to fellowship, because we are a family.

There are a small number of people who are called to live as hermits, but they are definitely the minority, and even they are not truly separated from the community, for they have a profound and loving sense of the Communion of Saints all around them, so they don’t feel alone. They are the exception in the Christian family, though. If you weren’t called to such a journey, I think this separation may possibly have hurt you inside, this being alone. Being alone, you wouldn’t get as much support from your brothers and sisters and wouldn’t feel as much love washing over you through them. Loving Jesus in our brothers and sisters and feeling His love through them is part of what makes our relationship with God joyful.

What do you think about that? I can’t talk about these things for sure; I’m just wondering.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Just continuing from my last post and wrapping up what I was thinking, which may or may not be right . . .

From what I read in your post, uglygal, it looks to me like you were pouring a whole lot of energy into pious activities while at the same time assaulting yourself head-on with self-hatred and isolation (which I don’t personally think were a good idea for you to practice), and at the same time, you may not have been taking the time to rest and find Jesus’ peace. I just suspect, though maybe I am wrong, that you burned yourself out and where you really need to find Jesus is in quiet and rest.

 

[JRKH]

Just continuing from my last post and wrapping up what I was thinking, which may or may not be right . . .

From what I read in your post, uglygal, it looks to me like you were pouring a whole lot of energy into pious activities while at the same time assaulting yourself head-on with self-hatred and isolation (which I don’t personally think were a good idea for you to practice), and at the same time, you may not have been taking the time to rest and find Jesus’ peace. I just suspect, though maybe I am wrong, that you burned yourself out and where you really need to find Jesus is in quiet and rest.