Scrupulousity²

[Ponyguy]

Is it only me, or does anyone else think that many, if not most, people participating here at CAF are scrupulous to an excessive degree?

Does anyone else think that a pleasant “medium” should be sought in everything in our lives, from quantity of food we eat, to how we dress, to the vehicles we drive, and even to the quantity of sex we share with our spouses?

I’ve spent a few weeks here at CAF trying to observe how other Catholics think, behave (or misbehave in the recent case of one particular guy ), live and react in 21st century Catholicism. I rather expected to see a reasonably bell-curve of reactions to various stimuli, approximating what I’ve observed as a long-term Catholic and “elder member” of our parish and diocese. However, the level of scrupulosity I’ve observed here at CAF far exceeds the amount I’ve observed at a few parishes here in the Midwest. Perhaps the 90th percentile of Catholics (who have easily-accessible internet access) don’t bother to pursue or simply observe their professed religious beliefs on-line.

Personally, I try to seek a balance between one extreme and another; “enough food” to stay healthy, but not “so much” that I become obese; enough play time to keep me happy, but not to the detriment of my chores; enough sleep to maintain my body’s requirements, but not so much that I’m lazy; enough participation and volunteering at Church activities to serve the parish, but not so much that I neglect my family and external friends; and the list continues. I’m not so up-tight that I need to go to confession after looking at what could be a CopperTone sunscreen advertisement, but I certainly don’t seek out smut at a bookshop or on my computer screen.

Last night, at her insistence, my wife, daughter and I went to JCPenney’s to purchase a couple of new pants and T-shirts for me (my late birthday & Grandfather/Father’s Day gifts) and we happened to walk through the "Ambrielle, LilyfromFrance, Liz Co, Olga, Play-Tex, and a few more brands" department, and as I walked through the swinging 44DD-mammaried mannequin on display, I wondered to myself just how people here at CAF would deal with such a display of estrogen empowerment. Is it a sin? Or is looking at those human udder-covers simply a joke? From the opinions and replies I’ve observed from a good many here at CAF, JCPenney ought to install walk-through confessionals at their exits.

"God is the definitive LIGHT and Satan is the definitive DARKNESS; We humans are all simply various shades of grey."

 

[rapunzel77]

lol, I understand what you are saying but you are probably getting a skewed view of CAF and other forums. Due to the anonymous nature of the internet, people often times are more free to say and ask stuff they normally wouldn’t do IRL. There are many questions that are nagging people so they ask them in the hopes that someone can give them an answer. I wouldn’t judge the whole forum solely on the scrupulous ones.

LOL about the lingerie manniquin .

 

[Rence]

Is it only me, or does anyone else think that many, if not most, people participating here at CAF are scrupulous to an excessive degree?

I hope I’m not offending anyone. And I apologize in advance if I do, but… yeah, I do agree with your observation.

Does anyone else think that a pleasant “medium” should be sought in everything in our lives, from quantity of food we eat, to how we dress, to the vehicles we drive, and even to the quantity of sex we share with our spouses?

I’ve spent a few weeks here at CAF trying to observe how other Catholics think, behave (or misbehave in the recent case of one particular guy ), live and react in 21st century Catholicism. I rather expected to see a reasonably bell-curve of reactions to various stimuli, approximating what I’ve observed as a long-term Catholic and “elder member” of our parish and diocese. However, the level of scrupulosity I’ve observed here at CAF far exceeds the amount I’ve observed at a few parishes here in the Midwest. Perhaps the 90th percentile of Catholics (who have easily-accessible internet access) don’t bother to pursue or simply observe their professed religious beliefs on-line.

I too haven’t experienced this in real life. In real life, I find that most practicing catholics try to achieve a balance. I think that the internet kind of attracts all kinds of people from both sides of the spectrum, with the quiet middle-ground right there in the middle and do so quietly. But the internet also allows people to be more “free”? in their interactions with others because it’s easier to disconnect from the person sitting at the opposite side of the computer screen. I don’t think most people would be so negative and rude if they were speaking face-to-face with the person with whom they disagree.

But I’ve met a lot of great people here, some I share ideas and thoughts with, and some I don’t. And it’s really nice to disagree with someone but still be mindful of each other while doing so. And I’ve also been exposed to a lot of things that I wasn’t introduced to as a youngster, like the CCC in depth and the encyclicals. There are some nice book recommendations here. It’s a good learning resource. But you have to be able to separate scrupulosity, from total chaos and have a resource for separating the truth from the false.

 

[shelby2014]

I am getting a complex from CAF because I do not think I am scrupulous enough. But seriously, the way I balance scrupulosity (which I admit I do not examine my conscience strong enough) is wondering if it will help me get to heaven. At least the scrupulous are very aware of how much they need grace. I agree with the happy medium, though, but I know I could be doing better in my own life, too.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Is it only me, or does anyone else think that many, if not most, people participating here at CAF are scrupulous to an excessive degree?

Does anyone else think that a pleasant “medium” should be sought in everything in our lives, from quantity of food we eat, to how we dress, to the vehicles we drive, and even to the quantity of sex we share with our spouses?

I’ve spent a few weeks here at CAF trying to observe how other Catholics think, behave (or misbehave in the recent case of one particular guy ), live and react in 21st century Catholicism. I rather expected to see a reasonably bell-curve of reactions to various stimuli, approximating what I’ve observed as a long-term Catholic and “elder member” of our parish and diocese. However, the level of scrupulosity I’ve observed here at CAF far exceeds the amount I’ve observed at a few parishes here in the Midwest. Perhaps the 90th percentile of Catholics (who have easily-accessible internet access) don’t bother to pursue or simply observe their professed religious beliefs on-line.

Personally, I try to seek a balance between one extreme and another; “enough food” to stay healthy, but not “so much” that I become obese; enough play time to keep me happy, but not to the detriment of my chores; enough sleep to maintain my body’s requirements, but not so much that I’m lazy; enough participation and volunteering at Church activities to serve the parish, but not so much that I neglect my family and external friends; and the list continues. I’m not so up-tight that I need to go to confession after looking at what could be a CopperTone sunscreen advertisement, but I certainly don’t seek out smut at a bookshop or on my computer screen.

Last night, at her insistence, my wife, daughter and I went to JCPenney’s to purchase a couple of new pants and T-shirts for me (my late birthday & Grandfather/Father’s Day gifts) and we happened to walk through the "Ambrielle, LilyfromFrance, Liz Co, Olga, Play-Tex, and a few more brands" department, and as I walked through the swinging 44DD-mammaried mannequin on display, I wondered to myself just how people here at CAF would deal with such a display of estrogen empowerment. Is it a sin? Or is looking at those human udder-covers simply a joke? From the opinions and replies I’ve observed from a good many here at CAF, JCPenney ought to install walk-through confessionals at their exits.

"God is the definitive LIGHT and Satan is the definitive DARKNESS; We humans are all simply various shades of grey."

Short answer: Yes, I agree.

In another forum, there was a poster who was completely convinced that all rock music is the devil’s music, everybody who listens to it is sinning mortally, and that if you listen to it you are also intellectually inferior for listening to Bach.

I’m sorry, but I am not convinced that liking rock music makes me a bad Catholic.

 

[rpp]

Methinks you are using 20th/21st ideas and trying to apply them to to unchangeable truths. Do not confuse scrupulosity with faithfulness to the Truth. Morality and Church doctrines cannot change as they are based on the revealed truth truth from God.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Methinks you are using 20th/21st ideas and trying to apply them to to unchangeable truths. Do not confuse scrupulosity with faithfulness to the Truth. Morality and Church doctrines cannot change as they are based on the revealed truth truth from God.

No, I’m not. I believe all Catholic dogmas. I still like rock music

 

[rpp]

No, I’m not. I believe all Catholic dogmas. I still like rock music

I like some rock music as well. I was responding to the OP, not your post.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I like some rock music as well. I was responding to the OP, not your post.

Ah. Sorry.

 

[Rence]

Short answer: Yes, I agree.

In another forum, there was a poster who was completely convinced that all rock music is the devil’s music, everybody who listens to it is sinning mortally, and that if you listen to it you are also intellectually inferior for listening to Bach.

I’m sorry, but I am not convinced that liking rock music makes me a bad Catholic.

Whatever music you listen to or movies you see are not “bad” or “good”, they are what you make of them, and what kind of reaction you let them have on you.

If listening to rock makes you want to be permiscuous, then I would say you have more of a problem than listening to rock music I see nothing wrong with music itself, unless it is putting inappropriate images or thoughts in you. So I agree with you: listening to rock music (or pop) doesn’t make one a bad catholic

 

[Miserys_Fence]

I agree with the OP that there seems to be quite a bit of over-scrupulosity in here; I also agree with the posters who suggested that this may be due to the anonymity factor of being online.

I found the Catholics I know in real life aren’t quite so timid about using their own God-given intellect and common sense to sort things out. But when I log on here and see entire threads devoted to “Is it a sin to ______?” or “Should we support _______?,” it makes me nervous about the new religion I’ve chosen, but also gives me insight to where all the Catholic stereotypes come from. What a pity that it’s often Catholics themselves who perpetuate these myths.

Miz

 

[OraLabora]

CAF isn’t the Church. But I do agree with the OP’s comment.

No arguments with the Catholic definition of the “Truth”. But the reality of life and our fallen nature is that no single human will ever be able to conform to it 100%. Even the Pope has a confessor. Many posters fail to see that, and fail to show mercy to those at different points on their faith walk, or with difficulties conforming to or even understanding the Truth as the Church teaches it (I also have issues with some teachings).

I also do believe in a balanced life, one thing that attracted me to Benedictines. Nothing done to extremes, not even prayer. A good balance between work, prayer, recreation, nutrition, exercise, etc.

Yes, you can be a decent Catholic and own a nice car, live in a nice neighborhood, drink good wine, and listen to rock (or other) music as long as you don’t neglect your duties as a charitable and merciful Catholic.

A well-know local broadcaster for Catholic radio that is also an oblate (and getting on in years) told us the anecdote of the time he was reading a spiritual book on the rooftop deck of his apartment building while sipping on a whiskey. A Calvinist lady friend showed up for a visit, and tore a strip out of him for drinking whiskey while reading spiritual matters. He failed to see the connection. As would I. Finally she asked him what he thought of her religious views because clearly she wasn’t getting through to him.

He told her calmly “I think you’re a heretic and a schismatic”. She left in a huff, somewhat understandably. But he had piqued her curiosity, and she came back to apologize a few weeks later and announce that she had begun RCIA to convert Catholicism, as her research had shown that his rather imprudent comment was, in fact, 100% true. The Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways and clearly is not averse to using a glass of fine scotch to get the message across…

 

[Portrait]

I am getting a complex from CAF because I do not think I am scrupulous enough. But seriously, the way I balance scrupulosity (which I admit I do not examine my conscience strong enough) is wondering if it will help me get to heaven. At least the scrupulous are very aware of how much they need grace. I agree with the happy medium, though, but I know I could be doing better in my own life, too.

Dear shelby2014,

As Christians who called to pursue holiness, “without which no one shall see the Lord” (Heb. 12: 14), is not a certain degree of scrupulosity in order for all of us? Clearly, if one is truly in earnest and striving to enter into life eternal, then this will surely entail having to renounce certain practices and habits, certain pleasures and, possibly, certain places (e.g. the dens of vice and iniquity). Invariably if one talks in this manner nowadays, one is likely to be branded a “Puritan prude” or a “joyless prigg”. However, before we hastily dismiss it as some sort of religious fanaticism, we ought to realize that there is a very spiritually healthy element to it, as well as being a vital and indispensable part of a man’s sanctification, thus rendering him fit for Heaven.

It is an undeniable fact that certain pleasures and pursuits are not compatible with the devout life. Of course the life of faith is more than merely having a clearly-defined list of taboos, “faith, hope and love” are equally indispensable as are works of mercy, but only a fool would deny that “do’s” and “dont’s” are also an integral part of it as well. For example, our own ethical intuition tells us that watching violent and salacious films and tv programmes is not acceptable for the Christian, niether is rock/pop music with all of its immoral and occultic associations.

It goes without remark, that any Christian who is earnestly seeking to keep themselves “unstained from the world” (Jam. 1: 27), will, especially in the current hedonistic climate of the West, almost certainly face accusations of being overscrupulous and incorrigibly narrow-minded and bigoted, that is inevitable. Perhaps we need to focus upon our dear Lord; never singular, never an ascetic, enjoying the good things of this world, a good companion of men, and yet all the while aloof, aloof from the iniquity and sin that abounded around Him. There was this wonderful balance; He was in the midst of it and yet all the time he was completely untainted and unpolluted by it. Neverttheless, Jesus was also quite emphatic regarding self-denial; He said that if any man would be His disciple that man must take up his cross daily and deny himself. Now this surely implies renunciation to a certain degree and abstinence from worldly pleasures and pursuits, especially the questionable and immoral variety.

As Christians, living up to the ardous demands of our religion is not some optional extra for the very thoroughgoing and committed, but a requirement for all who name the name of Christ. That is holiness and if this involves a prudent scrupulosity then so be it.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[upbeatjonm]

This is a good discussion.

I waver between being moderate and being scrupulous. Actually, I am amazed that people are not more scrupulous. Let me explain:

If it is true that most people chose the wide road that leads to destruction, and few are saved, then it seems that the prudent step would be to examine our lives and actions in a very detailed and “scrupulous” manner, since the punishment is so severe. I am amazed at how many “good” Catholics and Christians in general just go along with the mainstream.

 

[Bookcat]

One should seek to follow Christ as his disciple …with joy and faithfulness…

one should avoid either laxity on the one hand or scruples on the other…

seeking to have a well formed conscience (particularly informed by the Teachings of the Church) and make judgments etc guided by the virtue of prudence etc

 

[baltobetsy]

First, we need to make the important distinction between scrupulosity and having a delicate conscience.

Scrupulosity very (maybe most) often refers to a kind of religious obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) which is a great impediment to living the Christian life. It is characterized by worry that minor matters are sinful, that venial sins and imperfections are really mortal sins, that one has not confessed properly and therefore the confessions are invalid and need to be repeated. Sufferers often deal with unwanted impure or blasphemous thoughts and the fear that one is destined for hell as a result. There are quite a number of CAF members who suffer terribly from this kind of scrupulosity, and that is in no way a good thing. Their thread titles are things like, “Was my confession valid?” or “Is XXX a sin?” or “Did I lie when I XXX?” or “Did I commit the unforgivable sin?” or “Did I sin by breaking this promise?” Not every such thread is from a person with OCD-type scrupulosity, but many are. Such people need serious help from a priest and/or a physician.

The other use of the word “scrupulosity” refers to those who have a delicate conscience and take care to observe their obligations to God very seriously. This is a good thing.

Both of these groups tend to post on CAF. However, CAF is not a representative sample of the Church as a whole.

The first group is obsessed with knowing if they can be saved and are grasping at anything that might give a helpful answer. By the way, nothing we can do really helps them - they need professional spiritual guidance and often medical treatment.

The second group could almost be said to have religion as a “hobby.” I don’t mean that in any disrespectful way, just that it is an interest that they pursue with pleasure. Just as people who love cooking might read several food blogs every day because they want to, this group participates in CAF. The rest of the population, having interests other than religion, tend not to come to CAF.

So that’s what gives the serious Catholics such a majority on the boards. People who care less aren’t going to bother coming here at all, for the most part. And as for those who do care - here we are!

Betsy

 

[Bookcat]

First, we need to make the important distinction between scrupulosity and having a delicate conscience.

Scrupulosity very (maybe most) often refers to a kind of religious obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) which is a great impediment to living the Christian life. It is characterized by worry that minor matters are sinful, that venial sins and imperfections are really mortal sins, that one has not confessed properly and therefore the confessions are invalid and need to be repeated. Sufferers often deal with unwanted impure or blasphemous thoughts and the fear that one is destined for hell as a result. There are quite a number of CAF members who suffer terribly from this kind of scrupulosity, and that is in no way a good thing. Their thread titles are things like, “Was my confession valid?” or “Is XXX a sin?” or “Did I lie when I XXX?” or “Did I commit the unforgivable sin?” or “Did I sin by breaking this promise?” Not every such thread is from a person with OCD-type scrupulosity, but many are. Such people need serious help from a priest and/or a physician.

The other use of the word “scrupulosity” refers to those who have a delicate conscience and take care to observe their obligations to God very seriously. This is a good thing.

Both of these groups tend to post on CAF.

The first group is obsessed with knowing if they can be saved and are grasping at anything that might give a helpful answer. By the way, nothing we can do really helps them - they need professional spiritual guidance and often medical treatment.

The second group could almost be said to have religion as a “hobby.” I don’t mean that in any disrespectful way, just that it is an interest that they pursue with pleasure. Just as people who love cooking might read several food blogs every day because they want to, this group participates in CAF. The rest of the population, having interests other than religion, tend not to come to CAF.

So that’s what gives the serious Catholics such a majority on the boards. People who care less aren’t going to bother coming here at all, for the most part. And as for those who do care - here we are!

Betsy

Very good overview. I would add that scrupulosity per se does not = OCD (I know you did not say it did…but some think this is the case) though it can be “related” and some of the things for OCD can assist those with problems with scruples (I was a double major for a while…so studied some psychology …and worked in a crisis center at times with those with even terrible OCD) …though of course a person may have OCD and scrupulosity!

and I would note that scruples can have various kinds and degrees…and can even be “a passing scruple” …or one can have a “tendency to scruples” but otherwise have a delicate conscience…

and to note what a delicate conscience is…I would add that such a person seeks very carefully to avoid even small sins…and can distinguish the finer details often…but with out scruples (thought they could tip at times)

 

[presidentjlh]

Is CAF more “rigid” (so to speak) than the average Catholic? I’d say yes, but, they are still good people, and are full of great wisdom. Their insight has helped me become a better Catholic (Although at first I went through a horrible month of continuous anxiety and scrupulosity over sin that it was very difficult to further my spiritual life). Don’t get wrong, I sure as heck am not perfect, and I am very, very thankful that my parish hears confessions every Saturday. (An 18 year old guy in the modern world has a bit of a difficult struggle I 'd say)

Of course, sometimes I think some members on CAF go a little overboard. I respect their opinions, and think on them, but I still find some issues. These are mostly less controversial issues such as the aforementioned “rock music” and on the subject of kissing (I’m a poster that tends to think the Church is a little more allowing than some on here.) I am a great believer in the idea of Mercy, and that most people go to Heaven.

You could sum up my opinion on Mercy as follows: Myself, I have the hard route of life. My salvation will be difficult. When it comes to the salvation of others, on the other hand, I tend to lean towards the idea that God will be merciful to them. (It helps me get by.) I don’t know what God does, I don’t pretend to.

 

[shelby2014]

Dear shelby2014,

As Christians who called to pursue holiness, “without which no one shall see the Lord” (Heb. 12: 14), is not a certain degree of scrupulosity in order for all of us? Clearly, if one is truly in earnest and striving to enter into life eternal, then this will surely entail having to renounce certain practices and habits, certain pleasures and, possibly, certain places (e.g. the dens of vice and iniquity). Invariably if one talks in this manner nowadays, one is likely to be branded a “Puritan prude” or a “joyless prigg”. However, before we hastily dismiss it as some sort of religious fanaticism, we ought to realize that there is a very spiritually healthy element to it, as well as being a vital and indispensable part of a man’s sanctification, thus rendering him fit for Heaven.

It is an undeniable fact that certain pleasures and pursuits are not compatible with the devout life. Of course the life of faith is more than merely having a clearly-defined list of taboos, “faith, hope and love” are equally indispensable as are works of mercy, but only a fool would deny that “do’s” and “dont’s” are also an integral part of it as well. For example, our own ethical intuition tells us that watching violent and salacious films and tv programmes is not acceptable for the Christian, niether is rock/pop music with all of its immoral and occultic associations.

It goes without remark, that any Christian who is earnestly seeking to keep themselves “unstained from the world” (Jam. 1: 27), will, especially in the current hedonistic climate of the West, almost certainly face accusations of being overscrupulous and incorrigibly narrow-minded and bigoted, that is inevitable. Perhaps we need to focus upon our dear Lord; never singular, never an ascetic, enjoying the good things of this world, a good companion of men, and yet all the while aloof, aloof from the iniquity and sin that abounded around Him. There was this wonderful balance; He was in the midst of it and yet all the time he was completely untainted and unpolluted by it. Neverttheless, Jesus was also quite emphatic regarding self-denial; He said that if any man would be His disciple that man must take up his cross daily and deny himself. Now this surely implies renunciation to a certain degree and abstinence from worldly pleasures and pursuits, especially the questionable and immoral variety.

As Christians, living up to the ardous demands of our religion is not some optional extra for the very thoroughgoing and committed, but a requirement for all who name the name of Christ. That is holiness and if this involves a prudent scrupulosity then so be it.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Yes, thank you, that is a good way of stating what I believe.

What I am saying is that I think I am not scrupulous enough, or that my conscience is not as well formed as I thought it once was (considering that in my younger days I was a bit of a pharisee). The complex I get is I believe related to this seeming terror that perhaps someting small, not done on purpose, and long ago repented will somehow qualify as a mortal sin and separate us permanently from God. I want to do better at identifying and confessing and repenting of these venial sins, but it is sometimes hard to separate a good, honest attempt at growing closer to God and breaking sin’s hold on us (which will never be done in this lifetime) and real scrupulosity.

I am now studying my communion saint, St. Margaret of Cortona - at an initial pass through her book, I would say she suffered from scruples. But she never did. And now she’s a saint. So I realize I am severely lacking in my examination of conscience and performance of mortifications.

 

[MichelleByrne]

This is funny, I was just going to post a thread called Thinking Too Much. I am married to a “purist” - someone who is over-scrupulous. And this is exhausting to me. Jesus came to the poor and un-educated people. Surely we aren’t all expected to bang our heads against walls whenever we have a moral dilemma. We can pray, consult a priest, help one another, but some of these threads make my head spin. I tend toward simplicity not complexity. It must be awful to have this problem though.