SDA: Defend your opinion that the CC has gone into apostasy

[Esdra]

Hi folks,

in another thread the following issue came up:

I had written:

esdra:

However, I’d like to demonstrate that worshipping God on Sunday, the first Day of the week, was not “invented by the** Catholics after they had gone into apostasy”**, but clearly says in the New Testament.

Then Gabriel of 12 wrote:
Gabriel of 12:

Excuse me? agreement? Esdra’s take on Catholic apostacy requires clarification here if agreement can be found between Catholics and Protestants; I don’t mean to de thread here, but I disagree with the apostacy comment, from the way Esdra stated it.
"Esdra:

However, I’d like to demonstrate that worshipping God on Sunday, the first Day of the week, was not “invented” by the Catholics after they had gone into apostasy, but clearly says in the New Testament.

Quote:

benidict:

Thank you. I agree with you whole heartedly. There are many issues that Protestants and Catholics are in agreement on, and these you listed are a few. Peace

and

I would invite an SDA to prove its Catholic Church apostacy claim from history. Grant it if the invitation is welcomed on a new thread.

The point to all this is; To make a claim of a “Catholic apostacy” proven by the “new testament”, from a commentary should be clarified as opinon or other, but I took the commentary as if it were common knowledge here, and supported by another Catholic in total agreement.

All (name removed by moderator)ut is welcome!

in Christ,

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thank you Esdra, I am sure interested for the SDA’s to provide any physical or historical proof that the Catholic Church fell into apostacy, outside of an opinon of history. Unless the opinion or teaching is from one living in the age of the proposed apostacy, so as not to try and force a 19th century mindset “opinion” into an understanding and mindset from antiquity.

I am willing to see if historical facts can be provided on both sides of this issue.

 

[benidict]

:coffeeread: Yes, Id like to see what their views are on this too. Great thread!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Proof #1 of total Catholic apostacy: Sunday worship.

Proof #2 of total Catholic apostacy: baby sprinkling

Proof #3 of total Catholic apostacy: Mary worship

Historically it cannot be denied that 1 and 2 of these practices began very early in the history of the Church. 3 didn’t start until the 4th century.

 

[Esdra]

Proof #1 of total Catholic apostacy: Sunday worship.

Proof #2 of total Catholic apostacy: baby sprinkling

Proof #3 of total Catholic apostacy: Mary worship

Historically it cannot be denied that 1 and 2 of these practices began very early in the history of the Church. 3 didn’t start until the 4th century.

Aha, i see.

And that’s all? No other reasons?

Sunday worship says in the Bible. (see my post here.)

(According to Catholics) Baby sprinkling says in the Bible (Acts 18:8) ('though I as a Baptist don’t think so.)

Well, and first of all Mary isn’t worshipped but honoured. (Although when you have a look at Medjugorje or Lourdes or so. Or see certain people in general one can easily get the feeling that Catholics indeed worship Mary.) And secondly I personally think that only God in the Holy Trinity should be worshipped (or honoured).
And thirdly Catholics also say that the “worship” (meaning honouring ) of Mary also says in the Bible. (John 19:27)
'Though on the other hand I’ve found an interesting website quoting Jeremiah 44 to explain that “worshipping Mary” is even idolterous!)

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Sunday worship and visits to the synagogues on the Sabbath was practiced by the (first Jewish Christians) apostles. The temple gets destroyed in 70 a.d all the Christians flee to Pella, while the persecution continues as such that the Jews excommunicate all Christians from their synagogues.

As Paul washes his hands of proclaiming Christ to the Jews (first) (Acts 13;46-47) from within their synagogues, was were a Jewish Christian would find all the gathering of Jews so as to hear Christ crucified proclaimed, not just on the Sabbath but “everyday” in the temple area See Acts 2:46. Then Paul goes out into the Gentiles, where the common practice of attending their gathering on the first day “Sunday” continues with prayer, communal life in the breaking of bread and teachings of the apostles See Acts 2:42.

The Catholic church continues this biblical practice daily, not just on the Sabbath (Saturday).

Sunday biblical worship by Paul to break bread Acts 20: 7 On the first day of the week (Sunday) when we gathered to break bread Paul spoke…vs. 11 (after the liturgy of the word) Paul breaks bread with them. In 1Corinthians16:2… Paul instructs the Corinthians to take up a collection… a practice which continues in the Catholic liturgy every first day of the week “Sunday”.

Did Paul and the apostles fall into apostasy? when the apostles themselves celebrated COMMUNION in the BREAKING OF BREAD and PRAYERS on the SUNDAY, TAKING UP A COLLECTION ON SUNDAY, to which the Catholic Church continues these biblical principles on Sunday not to mention every day, except taking up the collection.

Paul’s teaches the Christians not to let NO ONE pass judgement on us in matters of food, drink…or Sabbath Please read Colossians 2:16

Now I will give an SDA view support if they think they are true to the temple sacrifice worship, which does not exist anymore since 70 a.d destruction. That the apostles themselves by following Jesus our savior apostatized from the temple worship. But that position will not make SD A’s Christian.

Marsha Adams;7585834]Proof #1 of total Catholic apostasy: Sunday worship

.

Sprinkling? Sprinkling is not new in the covenants of God. Moses used sprinkling of the blood upon the people of God which symbolized the coming prophet Ezekiel 36:25 "I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities… I will cleanse you… I will place a new spirit within you. Ezekiel tells us God will do all this from SPRINKLING? This prophecy gets revealed and fulfilled in the new covenant baptismal waters when the the Catholic Church baptises with sprinkling, pouring and immersion.

How is sprinkling an apostasy, when Moses did it, the prophets announced its coming with water and Peter does it to the many thousands who were baptised in a single day at Pentecost (Acts 2:40), there was no lake or river in the city of Jerusalem when Peter preached at Pentecost and 3000 were baptised… how else did Peter baptise the three thousand souls in the city? Ezekiel’s words come to pass, Peter sprinkled clean water which gave them a new spirit, a new heart and baptism washed away all their impurities…

When and where is sprinkling considered to be an apostasy? When it is performed in the temple in Jerusalem. (Acts 2:39 The Pentecost scene references baptism promised to the children… “For the promise is made to YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN (present tense) and to ALL THOSE FAR OFF” (future tense) parentheses mine.

Proof #2 of total Catholic apostacy: baby sprinkling

cont’

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;

First of all this false claim already does not hold water, there is never no such thing that exist in the Catholic Church as “Mary worship”.

The fourth century council only confirmed the Christians to hold on to the already belief that Mary is “Theotokos” God bearer. This is not worship, this is clarifying an already apostolic belief that Mary is Mother of God incarnate to heretics who denied this apostolic faith.

History records “veneration” high respect for Jesus Mother never worship from and angel Gabriel who greets Mary as royalty who “hails” Mary as full of grace = highly favored of God, this is the same respect paid by mortal believers. Elizabeth also greets Mary as “blessed among women” while under the inspiration of the HOLY SPIRIT. She also reverences Mary with great veneration by asking Mary "how does this happen to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?

Even sacred scripture venerates Jesus Mother here recorded from St. Luke 2:48 …"from NOW ON will ALL AGES CALL ME BLESSED…

This same biblical homage is paid to the Mother of Jesus in writings from the Early Church Fathers dating back to the second century for example St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Irenaeus, Tertullian, Aristides, St. Gregory Nazianzen in the fourth, St. Cyril of Alexandria in the ffth, from here when the persecution of the Catholic church is lifted the list of Saints who venerated the blessed Virgin Mary become endless to today in the Catholic Church.

Where is the proof of apostasy?

The great Saints, and greatest minds that ever lived on earth who venerated the blessed Virgin Mary with great respect and reverence as Catholics do today since biblical times, who fought against heretics, Idolaters and the like, are being accused of worshipping Mary?

Although these writers from antiquity possessed a great love for the blessed Virgin Mary, expressing ones Love without knowing the disposition the Saint has for Love God apart from Mary, should not be falsely accused of worshipping Mary. This holds true to today. Don’t make false judgements without learning the disposition of the believer first otherwise one would falsely accuse the angel Gabriel and Elizabeth for worshipping Mary.

Peace be with you

Proof #3 of total Catholic apostacy: Mary worship

Historically it cannot be denied that 1 and 2 of these practices began very early in the history of the Church. 3 didn’t start until the 4th century.

 

[Esdra]

cont;

First of all this false claim already does not hold water, there is never no such thing that exist in the Catholic Church as “Mary worship”.

The fourth century council only confirmed the Christians to hold on to the already belief that Mary is “Theotokos” God bearer. This is not worship, this is clarifying an already apostolic belief that Mary is Mother of God incarnate to heretics who denied this apostolic faith.

History records “veneration” high respect for Jesus Mother never worship from and angel Gabriel who greets Mary as royalty who “hails” Mary as full of grace = highly favored of God, this is the same respect paid by mortal believers. Elizabeth also greets Mary as “blessed among women” while under the inspiration of the HOLY SPIRIT. She also reverences Mary with great veneration by asking Mary "how does this happen to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?

Even sacred scripture venerates Jesus Mother here recorded from St. Luke 2:48 …"from NOW ON will ALL AGES CALL ME BLESSED…

This same biblical homage is paid to the Mother of Jesus in writings from the Early Church Fathers dating back to the second century for example St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Irenaeus, Tertullian, Aristides, St. Gregory Nazianzen in the fourth, St. Cyril of Alexandria in the ffth, from here when the persecution of the Catholic church is lifted the list of Saints who venerated the blessed Virgin Mary become endless to today in the Catholic Church.

Where is the proof of apostasy?

The great Saints, and greatest minds that ever lived on earth who venerated the blessed Virgin Mary with great respect and reverence as Catholics do today since biblical times, who fought against heretics, Idolaters and the like, are being accused of worshipping Mary?

Although these writers from antiquity possessed a great love for the blessed Virgin Mary, expressing ones Love without knowing the disposition the Saint has for Love God apart from Mary, should not be falsely accused of worshipping Mary. This holds true to today. Don’t make false judgements without learning the disposition of the believer first otherwise one would falsely accuse the angel Gabriel and Elizabeth for worshipping Mary.

Peace be with you

Historically it cannot be denied that 1 and 2 of these practices began very early in the history of the Church. 3 didn’t start until the 4th century.

Hi Gabriel,

thank you. Actually, I wanted to response to that (Marsha’s post) yesterday (and actually did, but the post didn’t show up! )
I have explained point one nearly the same. With point 2, well I am on the side of the Adventists so to speak. (Being a Baptist).
And with point 3 I am also more on the side of the Adventists. 'Though I wouldn’t accuse Catholics “worshipping” Mary, although one can get the feeling. Especially laity often deeply honour Mary (She even has Churches of her own! Especially here in Austria) so that one could easily think (not being a Catholic) that she is in fact worship. I also think of places of Medjugorje or Lourdes…
But I think that Jesus God and the Holy Spirit (and maybe Angels) should be honoured. And the Triune God worshipped of course.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I agree with you. But based on the SDA perception of history, when they start talking about the Church’s apostacy those are the things and many others the base their claims on.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Your welcome Esdra; Viewing these aspects from Catholicism without full knowledge and understanding of the sacrament of baptism instituted by Jesus Christ can lead one into misunderstanding, misconceptions of the Apostolic faith of baptism practiced since Pentecost unchanged. It is the SDA’s view and or Baptist view that is new and foreign to these revealed biblical teachings from Christ and his apostles.

As far as the blessed Virgin Mary is concerned I have a special devotion to our blessed Mother, because it is because of her, who lead me to Jesus Christ. Catholics who reveal a special devotion to the blessed Virgin Mary only points to the greater Love and Worship one gives to God alone, somehow this “fear of God” in Love and worship only given to God does not get revealed much from those looking in from the outside, because our worship is displayed and practiced in Liturgy. There is much more to reveal here in posture and prayer outside of the liturgy, it would suffice to learn that veneration of the blessed Virgin Mary is never worship to her, but she leads us always to worship God through her son, to whom she brings to us (the world in all ages).

But one need not have a devotion to the blessed Virgin Mary in order to be in good standing with the Catholic Church. Coming to the accurate understanding and knowledge of her doctrines reveals and gives testimony how great our God is and that “nothing is impossible for God”, and the great promises that await us in heaven are revealed through her son as her life gives testament to Jesus body and soul, on earth as it is in heaven.

I would recommend learning of these doctrines correctly from the Catholic Church before denouncing them because they are revelations from God.

Peace be with you

Esdra;7589628]

Hi Gabriel,

thank you. Actually, I wanted to response to that (Marsha’s post) yesterday (and actually did, but the post didn’t show up! )
I have explained point one nearly the same. With point 2, well I am on the side of the Adventists so to speak. (Being a Baptist).
And with point 3 I am also more on the side of the Adventists. 'Though I wouldn’t accuse Catholics “worshipping” Mary, although one can get the feeling. Especially laity often deeply honour Mary (She even has Churches of her own! Especially here in Austria) so that one could easily think (not being a Catholic) that she is in fact worship. I also think of places of Medjugorje or Lourdes…
But I think that Jesus God and the Holy Spirit (and maybe Angels) should be honoured. And the Triune God worshipped of course.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I have exhausted the LDS claim of a “total apostacy” which has never been proven. But I have never really seriously looked into or heard the SDA view of a “apostasy” in the Catholic Church. If they claim to an apostacy they should have a date and time and who it was that caused an apostacy. But to point to a Catholic faith position because they protest against it, or it teaches contrary to their new belief’s is not being truthful to their apostacy claim.

Thank you for pointing these out.

Marsha Adams;7589956]I agree with you. But based on the SDA perception of history, when they start talking about the Church’s apostacy those are the things and many others the base their claims on.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I have exhausted the LDS claim of a “total apostacy” which has never been proven. But I have never really seriously looked into or heard the SDA view of a “apostasy” in the Catholic Church. If they claim to an apostacy they should have a date and time and who it was that caused an apostacy. But to point to a Catholic faith position because they protest against it, or it teaches contrary to their new belief’s is not being truthful to their apostacy claim.

Thank you for pointing these out.

The SDAs look at the apostasy as a gradual falling away over time, rather than a one time event. More a case of error crept in until finally it was not longer the Church. You know that they do not believe the Catholic Church existed until hundreds of years after Christ’s death. That is why they reject St. Peter as being the first pope.

Face it, Gabriel, its a messed up denomination quilted together from many odd notions.