Seal and intent to confess

[glendab]

Okie dokie. I found out a little about the word “just” a few minutes ago and thought I’d share it. A “just” reason is sickness as in the Priest can hear your Confession outside the Confessional at your sick bed in the home or the hospital or anywhere if there is a danger of death and also like the soldiers on a ship waiting to deploy. That is also an occasion for General Absolution as well. Another “just” reason is when they visit prisoners or those in the mental health ward. Another “just” reason, (the use of the office) is when a person makes an appointment to have a talk with the Priest at the Rectory and as a happenstance of the conversation, Confession is requested. Of course in this instance the Priest would be well advised to actually take the person asking into the Church where the Confessional is located unless it is a bad time, like the middle of the night because they talked into the wee hours. Another “just” reason can be at a Conference or Seminar when there aren’t any Confessionals but the occasion arises when Confession is part of the experience. He said something else but I have to go soon so that’s enough for now.

Glenda

 

[Paleocon]

Okie dokie. I found out a little about the word “just” a few minutes ago and thought I’d share it. A “just” reason is sickness as in the Priest can hear your Confession outside the Confessional at your sick bed in the home or the hospital or anywhere if there is a danger of death and also like the soldiers on a ship waiting to deploy. That is also an occasion for General Absolution as well. Another “just” reason is when they visit prisoners or those in the mental health ward. Another “just” reason, (the use of the office) is when a person makes an appointment to have a talk with the Priest at the Rectory and as a happenstance of the conversation, Confession is requested. Of course in this instance the Priest would be well advised to actually take the person asking into the Church where the Confessional is located unless it is a bad time, like the middle of the night because they talked into the wee hours. Another “just” reason can be at a Conference or Seminar when there aren’t any Confessionals but the occasion arises when Confession is part of the experience. He said something else but I have to go soon so that’s enough for now.

Glenda

 

[babochka]

Actually a proper analogy to communion would be if you saw a priest passing through a park with the Eucharist, and asked to receive (this can be done outside Mass provided the Eucharist is already consecrated).

Right, but this would be unlikely, as would it be unlikely for a person sitting on a park bench ask a random priest walking by to hear his or her confession. But what if two people met in the park and struck up a conversation; a fallen-away Catholic and a priest. As an outgrowth of the conversation, the Catholic, who has been teetering on the edge of returning to the Church, decides in that moment, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to courageously ask the priest if he will hear her confession. What is the right thing for the priest to do? Inform her that Confessions are heard in his nearby parish every Saturday from 3-4, and he hopes to see her there? Or take this moment of God’s Grace for what it is: an opportunity for a sinner to be reconciled to the Church in that very instant? What priest would not hear the Confession, right there on the park bench?

There are all sorts of scenarios and I don’t think we should be in the business of second-guessing priests and/or penitents and determining for ourselves if the reason was “just”. If the Church meant to give firmer guidelines, the Church would most certainly do so.

 

[Paleocon]

Right, but this would be unlikely, as would it be unlikely for a person sitting on a park bench ask a random priest walking by to hear his or her confession. But what if two people met in the park and struck up a conversation; a fallen-away Catholic and a priest. As an outgrowth of the conversation, the Catholic, who has been teetering on the edge of returning to the Church, decides in that moment, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to courageously ask the priest if he will hear her confession. What is the right thing for the priest to do? Inform her that Confessions are heard in his nearby parish every Saturday from 3-4, and he hopes to see her there? Or take this moment of God’s Grace for what it is: an opportunity for a sinner to be reconciled to the Church in that very instant? What priest would not hear the Confession, right there on the park bench?

I agree.

 

[babochka]

Okie dokie. I found out a little about the word “just” a few minutes ago and thought I’d share it. A “just” reason is sickness as in the Priest can hear your Confession outside the Confessional at your sick bed in the home or the hospital or anywhere if there is a danger of death and also like the soldiers on a ship waiting to deploy. That is also an occasion for General Absolution as well. Another “just” reason is when they visit prisoners or those in the mental health ward. Another “just” reason, (the use of the office) is when a person makes an appointment to have a talk with the Priest at the Rectory and as a happenstance of the conversation, Confession is requested. Of course in this instance the Priest would be well advised to actually take the person asking into the Church where the Confessional is located unless it is a bad time, like the middle of the night because they talked into the wee hours. Another “just” reason can be at a Conference or Seminar when there aren’t any Confessionals but the occasion arises when Confession is part of the experience. He said something else but I have to go soon so that’s enough for now.

Glenda

I’m interested in reading more of what you came across. Can you share the link when you get a chance?

 

[glendab]

Hello Babochka.

I’m interested in reading more of what you came across. Can you share the link when you get a chance?

No link, it was a chat.

Glenda

 

[babochka]

Okie dokie. I found out a little about the word “just” a few minutes ago and thought I’d share it. A “just” reason is sickness as in the Priest can hear your Confession outside the Confessional at your sick bed in the home or the hospital or anywhere if there is a danger of death and also like the soldiers on a ship waiting to deploy. That is also an occasion for General Absolution as well. Another “just” reason is when they visit prisoners or those in the mental health ward. Another “just” reason, (the use of the office) is when a person makes an appointment to have a talk with the Priest at the Rectory and as a happenstance of the conversation, Confession is requested. Of course in this instance the Priest would be well advised to actually take the person asking into the Church where the Confessional is located unless it is a bad time, like the middle of the night because they talked into the wee hours. Another “just” reason can be at a Conference or Seminar when there aren’t any Confessionals but the occasion arises when Confession is part of the experience. He said something else but I have to go soon so that’s enough for now.

Glenda

I’m not sure of the source that you used, but I found this in the Commentary on the Code of Canon Law. There is quite a bit more, but I’m not able to cut and paste, so I’m going to keep it to the most relevant part.

books.google.com/books?id=JKgZEjvB5cEC&pg=PA1149&lpg=PA1149&dq=just+cause+for+hearing+a+confession+outside+the+confessional&source=bl&ots=GK2HNCBz3j&sig=tO1caqAbHExJ7-Fqw7wndd9M25w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SQIiVLKxOM2QyASbzYDICg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=just%20cause%20for%20hearing%20a%20confession%20outside%20the%20confessional&f=false

As is obvious, the “just cause” also includes the very many circumstances outside of churches and oratories, whether homes or hospitals or entirely secular places, where the hearing of confessions is reasonably requested.

This quote would seem to be at odds with the information you posted, but since you didn’t provide the source, I can’t really compare the two.

 

[babochka]

No link, it was a chat.

A chat with whom? With what authority does he or she speak?

I was able to find this:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_20020502_misericordia-dei_en.html

*
9. Concerning the place and confessional for the celebration of the Sacrament, it should be remembered that:
a) “the proper place to hear sacramental confessions is a church or an oratory”,(26) though it remains clear that pastoral reasons can justify celebrating the Sacrament in other places.(27)
b) confessionals are regulated by the norms issued by the respective Episcopal Conferences, who shall ensure that confessionals are located “in an open area” and have “a fixed grille”, so as to permit the faithful and confessors themselves who may wish to make use of them to do so freely.(28*)

This is the only official document I was able to find that deals with the subject. The guidelines are so vague as to be non-existent, which leads me to believe that the Church intends to leave this matter up to the discretion of the priest. If you can find better guidelines from an official source, such as the Vatican, or even some issued by a local bishop, I’d be very interested in seeing them.

Otherwise, I don’t think we should be questioning the judgement of our priests in this matter. Lacking definitive guidelines from church authorities, it is left to the individual priest to decide “just reason”. You personally might not be comfortable with confession held outside of a confessional, and others might agree with you, but is it not our call to make. The call belongs to each priest, in each circumstance, within the very broad guidelines given by the church. I presume that each priest makes his decision with the good of souls in mind.
**

 

[smichhertz]

Hi twf,

Here are some brief answers to your questions.

If an individual has no intention to confess his or her sins, has no intention to seek absolution, but just happens to step into the little booth at the back of the church to inform father that he has planted a bomb in the church, why does the seal apply?

The seal does not apply, as they did not go to confession.

Is there something in Church law which states that any conversation within the confessional booth is bound by the seal?

No, it has nothing to do with physical location but with the sacrament itself. No sacramental Confession, no seal.

It seems to me that if the individual has NO intention to confess his or her sins, no intention to participate in the sacrament, the fact that he or she is in the confessional booth is immaterial. What am I missing?

Nothing, that is correct.

 

[glendab]

Hello Babochka.

I’m not sure of the source that you used, but I found this in the Commentary on the Code of Canon Law. There is quite a bit more, but I’m not able to cut and paste, so I’m going to keep it to the most relevant part.

books.google.com/books?id=JKgZEjvB5cEC&pg=PA1149&lpg=PA1149&dq=just+cause+for+hearing+a+confession+outside+the+confessional&source=bl&ots=GK2HNCBz3j&sig=tO1caqAbHExJ7-Fqw7wndd9M25w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SQIiVLKxOM2QyASbzYDICg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=just%20cause%20for%20hearing%20a%20confession%20outside%20the%20confessional&f=false

This quote would seem to be at odds with the information you posted, but since you didn’t provide the source, I can’t really compare the two.

There is no link. I’d had a chat. That means from my lips to someone’s ears and from their lips to my ears. I’d have to give you a name and phone number so you could take him to task about his explanation but sorry, I’m not giving you anyone’s phone number or their name. I don’t really think you’d demand that before you concede that the “just” causes I listed are really just causes for hearing confession outside the Confessional.

Glenda

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

Now, if you were to add something to your imaginary story that would make it different, it might be an actual Confession.

It might be helpful to outline what constitutes a confession.

Canon 959 states that it consists of a faithful who confesses his sins to a lawful minister, with sorrow for those sins and a purpose of amendment, and receives from God through the absolution given by that minister forgiveness of sins they have committed after baptism.

We can note that the de minimus requirement is that the penitent be baptized for validity.

.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

The various bishop’s conferences do have the authority to issue norms for how confessionals are designed—but that authority has a condition attached: confessionals with screens must always be available.

Another little noted provision is that no priest can be compelled to hear confessions face-to-face.

In 1994 the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts, with the Holy Father’s approval, responded to inquiries regarding confessionals:

“… according to Canon 964, paragraph 2, of the Code of Canon Law, the minister of the sacrament, for a just cause and excluding cases of necessity, can legitimately decide, even in the eventuality that the penitent ask for the contrary, that sacramental confession be received in a confessional with a fixed grille.”

Generally priests of the FSSP do not do face-to-face confession and when a confessional isn’t available, will often contrive make-shift screen.

.

 

[Hopey]

You’re not missing anything. Well, not anything with regard to the Seal. What you’re missing is that you’re giving too much credibility to people who don’t know what they’re writing about.

…

WE KNOW NOTHING! STOP AXING US!

 

[babochka]

Hello Babochka.

There is no link. I’d had a chat. That means from my lips to someone’s ears and from their lips to my ears. I’d have to give you a name and phone number so you could take him to task about his explanation but sorry, I’m not giving you anyone’s phone number or their name. I don’t really think you’d demand that before you concede that the “just” causes I listed are really just causes for hearing confession outside the Confessional.

Glenda

I have no problem with the scenarios that you list as just reasons. I think all of those reasons are excellent examples of good reasons to hear confessions outside of a church or oratory. In fact, I came up with similar examples when I wrote in a previous post:

Retreats and World Youth Day come to mind. On one retreat I attended, one priest was hearing confessions in the church. A second priest was hearing confessions in the small chapel in the guest house, and a third priest was hearing confessions in his own room in the guesthouse.

So yes, I freely concede the reasons that you listed would be just, but I do not believe that the church intends that just cause be limited to such reasons. Since the Church does not appear to have listed guidelines for confessors in this matter, all you or I have to go on is opinions: yours, mine, and those of others whom we respect. I know of a good number of faithful, orthodox, even conservative priests who interpret the canon broadly. I even know of at least one case in which an FSSP priest who heard a confession in the Church parking lot, and FSSP priests are not exactly known for their liberalism. ( I don’t know the circumstances of this last example, but I assume that, in the best judgement of the priest, there was just cause.) Even Fr. David, on this very forum, has stated that it can be as simple as “I have a toothache”. So you disagree with my opinion and those of the people whom I have consulted. You have failed to cite a single official document that supports your opinion. I have also been unable to cite documents which specifically list some of the examples that I have given as acceptable, which leads us back to the best judgement of the priest in question. I believe that a priest who would hear a confession in unusual circumstances, citing just reason for doing so, would almost always have only the good of souls in mind. I think that shows respect for the importance of the sacrament.

 

[glendab]

Hello Babochka.

…Certainly, the ordinary place for confessions (in the Latin Rite) is a confessional. In my rite, canon law states that it is a “church or oratory”, as we don’t use confessionals. Either way, the intent is the same. The proper place is designated. But there are many, many good (just) reasons to hear confessions in other places. Examples that would be stronger than mine, but less than grave, would be when there are a large number of penitents and priests, but few confessionals. Retreats and World Youth Day come to mind. On one retreat I attended, one priest was hearing confessions in the church. A second priest was hearing confessions in the small chapel in the guest house, and a third priest was hearing confessions in his own room in the guesthouse. This was a good reason.

(I apologize that I had to edit your comments considerably, in order to fit my response. I hope I didn’t misrepresent your position.)

God’s ways are mysterious! Praise the Lord. I had the good fortune of having a Byzantine Catholic Rite Priest for Confession this very Saturday. He sometimes covers for my Parish Priest on Saturdays and he really does an excellent job of the Latin Rites even when he does Mass for us. It is obvious to me, at least, that he is trying to be Holy. I talked to him about all of this and he assured me that my views are correct. He also told me how Confessions are to be heard in his normal place, standing in front of the Icon, etc. I think I pretty much know what I need to know now and was thankful to God and him for having my question answered. One thing he stressed was that even though there are no confessional walls around the penitent and Priest in the Byzantine Rite way of hearing a confession, everything remains secret and sealed and quite anonymous. He simply “forgets” everything.

Glenda

 

[babochka]

Hello Babochka.

God’s ways are mysterious! Praise the Lord. I had the good fortune of having a Byzantine Catholic Rite Priest for Confession this very Saturday. He sometimes covers for my Parish Priest on Saturdays and he really does an excellent job of the Latin Rites even when he does Mass for us. It is obvious to me, at least, that he is trying to be Holy. I talked to him about all of this and he assured me that my views are correct.

Well, I’m glad you got an answer that agreed with your previous ideas. As it turns out, I also discussed the matter with my own pastor and confessor, and received, not surprisingly, an answer that confirmed my own. It just shows that there is a wide variety of interpretations out there! Ask a dozen priests, get a dozen answers…

He also told me how Confessions are to be heard in his normal place, standing in front of the Icon, etc. I think I pretty much know what I need to know now and was thankful to God and him for having my question answered. One thing he stressed was that even though there are no confessional walls around the penitent and Priest in the Byzantine Rite way of hearing a confession, everything remains secret and sealed and quite anonymous. He simply “forgets” everything.

You and I must have very different understandings of the word “anonymous”. To me, and according to the dictionary, anonymous means “not named or identified.” The priest, and anyone else who happens to be in the church, sees you when you walk up, sees you when you are confessing, and sees the absolution. Even if I were to go to confession at the Latin Rite parish where my pastor sometimes hears confessions and happened to go behind the screen, I wouldn’t be anonymous to him, just unseen. Of course, Byzantine confessions are under the same seal and secret, but truly, they are far from anonymous. If the priest knows you, he knows who you are. Nothing anonymous about it. My priest has told me that, while he remembers specific sins confessed, he never is able to associate them with specific people. I think it is a special grace given by God to priests, this ability to forget. Otherwise, we would drive them insane with the burden of our sins.