Seal of confession for non-priest

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confusedlost

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Hi, I’m new here - this site is confusing; hard to know where I am at - hope this is the right place to post. Hope I can find my post again. 🙂

I have been catholic all my life and was an avid reader throughout my life on my faith, church history and spirituality - but do to some specific issues about 8 months ago I began to research my faith regarding concerns that I had always stuffed away as wrong to ask (wrong to question the catholic church)

Regarding ‘seal of confession’

When I was in confirmation class, many many years ago, the priest showed us the confessional and explained that was where confessions were heard (a little strange since this was a confirmation class not a first communion class). One girl turned to another and said that one of her friends went to confession, and one time her friend had heard the father of another friend confessing and had told her friend what her father had confessed.

Since then I have noticed how easy it is for others to hear confession – in my area most churches have taken away the 2 sided confessional – but people still line up at times right next to the wall of the confession and since you can still hear at times even when sitting in the pews, you can certainly get a good hearing right next to it.

There is no effort by the catholic church to make the confession private – not even white noise or thick confessional, etc.

Last time I went there was a family outside waiting, they were friendly. After I came out they just sort of stared at me unfriendly and sort of embarrassed like – I have trouble hearing and so I can speak a bit loudly and I wonder how much of a ear full they may have got.

What is the point of the church claiming ‘seal of confession’ when it know it is broken regularly every time confessions are heard? And people do talk, that is a fact of human nature.
 
I’m sorry you experienced that sort of behavior. It’s completely inappropriate. Is it possible that it seemed like they were disapproving, but weren’t really? I’m sure you could take your concern to your pastor and request confession at a separate time. I’ve been to confession in my pastor’s office before. Express your concern about being loud because you’re hard of hearing. Don’t let the actions of someone else keep you from the sacrament of confession.

I think it’s a little unfair to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Church in this matter. The blame lies with the people who are actively listening to the confession then having the audacity to repeat what they heard. That act is sinful on its own.

I have never heard anything anyone confessed while waiting in lie. That includes when I’m next and standing right by the door. I imagine that if I could hear, I would move so I wouldn’t. I definitely wouldn’t stand there and try to listen much less repeat something I accidentally overheard.
 
It sounds like something is terribly wrong at your particular parish. If you’re hard of hearing but can still hear what other people are saying in the confessional, then there is something wrong with the confessionals; they’ve been constructed poorly, or what have you.

You have a canonical right to a private confession. I recommend that you bring this up with your pastor; and, if nothing happens as a result, go to the bishop.
 
confusedlost said:
Hi, I’m new here - this site is confusing; hard to know where I am at - hope this is the right place to post. Hope I can find my post again. 🙂

I have been catholic all my life and was an avid reader throughout my life on my faith, church history and spirituality - but do to some specific issues about 8 months ago I began to research my faith regarding concerns that I had always stuffed away as wrong to ask (wrong to question the catholic church)

Regarding ‘seal of confession’

When I was in confirmation class, many many years ago, the priest showed us the confessional and explained that was where confessions were heard (a little strange since this was a confirmation class not a first communion class). One girl turned to another and said that one of her friends went to confession, and one time her friend had heard the father of another friend confessing and had told her friend what her father had confessed.

Since then I have noticed how easy it is for others to hear confession – in my area most churches have taken away the 2 sided confessional – but people still line up at times right next to the wall of the confession and since you can still hear at times even when sitting in the pews, you can certainly get a good hearing right next to it.

There is no effort by the catholic church to make the confession private – not even white noise or thick confessional, etc.

Last time I went there was a family outside waiting, they were friendly. After I came out they just sort of stared at me unfriendly and sort of embarrassed like – I have trouble hearing and so I can speak a bit loudly and I wonder how much of a ear full they may have got.

What is the point of the church claiming ‘seal of confession’ when it know it is broken regularly every time confessions are heard? And people do talk, that is a fact of human nature.
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Any individual that hears a confession or part of it is bound by the seal of confession. That applies all the times whether or not the individual is a priest and whether or not the hearing is intentional or unintentional (e.g. translator/aid vs. passerby).
 
confusedlost said:
in my area most churches have taken away the 2 sided confessional – but people still line up at times right next to the wall of the confession and since you can still hear at times even when sitting in the pews, you can certainly get a good hearing right next to it.

There is no effort by the catholic church to make the confession private – not even white noise or thick confessional, etc.
Click to expand...
I’m so sorry to hear about your experience. That has never been the case in my area. All of the churches play white noise or a loud chant cd when hearing confessionals. Usually the speakers are located right near the confessional to help cover the noise.

Also, lines are always started a good distance away from the confessional to prevent anyone from overhearing.

Perhaps you might find it worth while to talk to your priest about it? You could offer to purchase a stereo and a chant CD and donate it to the church, or just simply request that the line start further back from the confessional.
 
Cristiano said:
Any individual that hears a confession or part of it is bound by the seal of confession. That applies all the times whether or not the individual is a priest and whether or not the hearing is intentional or unintentional (e.g. translator/aid vs. passerby).
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I believe that the Code of Canon Law only addresses the confessor and any one present in an official capacity (actually I believe it only addresses interpreters). It does not say anything about anyone who hears in part or in whole the confession of another.
 
I agree that that was very inappropriate and should not happen.

Everyone (not just the priest) who has knowledge of any sins confessed in the confessional are obligated not to violate the sacramental seal. Here is the relevant passage from the Code of Canon Law:

Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.

§2. The interpreter, if there is one, and all others who in any way have knowledge of sins from confession are also obliged to observe secrecy.

Therefore, even if someone does overhear, they are also bound by pain of sin not to reveal that information. And if they do reveal that information (which would be sinful), those they reveal it to are likewise bound to secrecy, on down the line. No one can morally divulge the topic of another’s Confession for any reason under any circumstances.

I would talk to the pastor about your concern. In a parish in my area, concerns over this led them to create a sign that says “Line for Confession starts here” as a way of pushing people back out of ear shot. I am very thankful for that! 🙂
 
Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.

§2. The interpreter, if there is one, and all others who in any way have knowledge of sins from confession are also obliged to observe secrecy.
 
There is no real “seal” for any non-priest. However, repeating or listening to someone’s Confession should be treated as a very serious matter; it would seem repeating the confession would be gossip, and possibly a mortal sin for whoever committed the gossip.

On the other hand, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, #1467, treats the seriousness of the seal on the priest. It would seem that the priest hearing the Confession has a serious obligation to assure that the “seal of the Sacrament” is NOT broken. For example, it would be unconscienceable for a priest to attempt to hear a Confession in the middle of a subway car. He IS RESPONSIBLE for the “seal”, so it would follow he has to take necessary care to assure the “seal” is not broken.

All this being said, in your situation where you are hard of hearing, it would seem to be prudent to make an appointment with a priest…even on a regular occurence… so you may confess in private.

Peace.
 
TheMc said:
Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.

§2. The interpreter, if there is one, and all others who in any way have knowledge of sins from confession are also obliged to observe secrecy.
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Nice! 👍

We both posted the same canon at exactly the same time. Eerie. 😛 😉
 
Thanks for posting it. I don’t know how I missed the “all others” part.
 
Joe_5859 said:
I agree that that was very inappropriate and should not happen.

Everyone (not just the priest) who has knowledge of any sins confessed in the confessional are obligated not to violate the sacramental seal. Here is the relevant passage from the Code of Canon Law:Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.

§2. The interpreter, if there is one, and all others who in any way have knowledge of sins from confession are also obliged to observe secrecy.Therefore, even if someone does overhear, they are also bound by pain of sin not to reveal that information. And if they do reveal that information (which would be sinful), those they reveal it to are likewise bound to secrecy, on down the line. No one can morally divulge the topic of another’s Confession for any reason under any circumstances.

I would talk to the pastor about your concern. In a parish in my area, concerns over this led them to create a sign that says “Line for Confession starts here” as a way of pushing people back out of ear shot. I am very thankful for that! 🙂
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In the words of a TV ad man, “but wait, there’s more!”
Can. 1388 §1. A confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; one who does so only indirectly is to be punished according to the gravity of the delict.**
§2. An interpreter and the others mentioned in can. 983, §2 who violate the secret are to be punished with a just penalty, not excluding excommunication**.
Not just punishable by the pain of sin…

The point being if you overheard a confession and then start spreading it around, you could ruin a person’s reputation. That person would have the right to take the rumormonger to an ecclesial court. (And that is exactly what should happen)
 
Thank you for all your posts and helpful suggestions.

(side issue - I get really lost on this site - what is the best/easy way to find one’s way around and to find one’s post?)

Thank you to the 2 people who found the ‘canon law’ on this issue.
 
confusedlost said:
Thank you for all your posts and helpful suggestions.

(side issue - I get really lost on this site - what is the best/easy way to find one’s way around and to find one’s post?)

Thank you to the 2 people who found the ‘canon law’ on this issue.
Click to expand...
I believe the default is that, once you post on a thread, you are subscribed to it. If you are logged in at CAF, simply click on the “Profile” tab above, and it will show you all of the threads to which you have subscribed that have new posts. (There is also the option at the bottom to “View all subscribed threads”, including those with no new posts.)

If you click on the little picture of the downward arrow that is just to the left of the thread title, it will automatically take you to the first unread post of that thread so you can pick up right where you left off without having to scroll through all thes posts you already read.

That’s how I do things, any way. :o Hope that helps!
 
‘I think it’s a little unfair to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Church in this matter. ‘
(I don’t know how to copy like some people to show when something is a quote from one of the posts - the above is a quote from a poster)

It is the responsiblity of the Catholic Church to guard and protect the Sacraments;

It is the duty of the priest, church leaders, to especially guard the ‘seal of confession’ since it is the only way that people will feel safe to confession major/deadly sins (that is why the seal is there in the first place) – since it is the Catholic Church that requires all its members in grave sin must go to confession to be forgiven (or go to hell).
Just like it is the duty of the priest to use the right formula for Baptism in order for it to be valid, etc.

When the church and the priests do not take it seriously to try to protect the confidentiality of the Sacrament, why shouldn’t people think it is ok to listen in and talk about others sins.
As one other person posted, and I think it is the mentality of most people to tend to think it is the priest and he alone that is under the seal of confession; and the lack of effort made to keep privacy makes it seem all the more unimportant to not listen in or talk about afterwards.
People gossip, people get curious - that is a fact of life – even those who don’t want to hear should not be put in temptation’s way.

If someone can hear, and they can, how then will no one ever know and how will it never be told – that is a contradiction.
If a seal is broken on a medication, the product advices to throw it out; don’t trust that someone has not tempered with it. If the seal of confession is broken because others can hear – then there is no seal to start with, it is already broken.
  • when I was young I would plug my ears at times to try to keep from hearing others confessions when it was 2 sided. And I tried not to go with a family member on the other side.
  • Even now that it is one sided for most parishes – few people move away when the person inside is quite loud and easy to hear. (I live in California and you add the Fan in the confessional and people naturally raise their voices).
Jesus knew the hearts of people, that is why He didn’t trust Himself to them – if it is ‘sealed’ the Church needs to be the first to show Respect for this Sacrament and keep anyone that is not a priest from hearing it to the VERY Best of their ability – not the least to no effort.
‘But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men’ John 2:24
 
confusedlost said:
‘I think it’s a little unfair to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Church in this matter. ‘
(I don’t know how to copy like some people to show when something is a quote from one of the posts - the above is a quote from a poster)

It is the responsiblity of the Catholic Church to guard and protect the Sacraments;

It is the duty of the priest, church leaders, to especially guard the ‘seal of confession’ since it is the only way that people will feel safe to confession major/deadly sins (that is why the seal is there in the first place) – since it is the Catholic Church that requires all its members in grave sin must go to confession to be forgiven (or go to hell).
Just like it is the duty of the priest to use the right formula for Baptism in order for it to be valid, etc.

When the church and the priests do not take it seriously to try to protect the confidentiality of the Sacrament, why shouldn’t people think it is ok to listen in and talk about others sins.
As one other person posted, and I think it is the mentality of most people to tend to think it is the priest and he alone that is under the seal of confession; and the lack of effort made to keep privacy makes it seem all the more unimportant to not listen in or talk about afterwards.
People gossip, people get curious - that is a fact of life – even those who don’t want to hear should not be put in temptation’s way.

If someone can hear, and they can, how then will no one ever know and how will it never be told – that is a contradiction.
If a seal is broken on a medication, the product advices to throw it out; don’t trust that someone has not tempered with it. If the seal of confession is broken because others can hear – then there is no seal to start with, it is already broken.
  • when I was young I would plug my ears at times to try to keep from hearing others confessions when it was 2 sided. And I tried not to go with a family member on the other side.
  • Even now that it is one sided for most parishes – few people move away when the person inside is quite loud and easy to hear. (I live in California and you add the Fan in the confessional and people naturally raise their voices).
Jesus knew the hearts of people, that is why He didn’t trust Himself to them – if it is ‘sealed’ the Church needs to be the first to show Respect for this Sacrament and keep anyone that is not a priest from hearing it to the VERY Best of their ability – not the least to no effort.
‘But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men’ John 2:24
Click to expand...
Man, everytime I try to help someone around here, it gets thrown back at me. Argh!

So, no fault lies with the people repeating a confession then? It’s ALL the Church’s fault?
 
Thank you Joe for the helpful info on how to get around and find my posts.

Thank you for the canon laws and for the good info everyone.
 
Post quote: ‘Man, everytime I try to help someone around here, it gets thrown back at me. Argh!’
I felt this post to be a bit angry.

I made a statement regarding the duty of the Church to protect the seal of confession. I stand by that statement and I hope the church does too.

The seal is to be protected, just like any Sacrament which is the duty of the priest to ensure that it is valid. Once that seal is unprotected, the seal is gone. This is of extreme importance to the Sacrament of Confession.

And as I also said: even for those who don’t want to hear someone else’s confession, should not be put in temptations way. It is important that we all take it seriously.
We are sinners (as James said, if you say you have no sin, you are a liar) and as sinners we are, weak. There would be no need for a ‘seal of confession’ if people did the right thing by nature, and then we wouldn’t need the seal to begin with.

And how many people know the seal pertains to them too? How many people can be truly trusted - I trust the priest when I go to confession, but it would be pure foolishness to trust everyone in the church - otherwise just have it be a public confession to begin with, and how many would confession then?

As a few others posted there are canon laws – and they do clearly pertain to all – which I am very happy the church takes it seriously enough to make to totally clear it pertains to all. And a law requires that the ones that made it, take it the most seriously, the church leaders.

How many people don’t gossip – ever? How many people do I want to know my confession besides the priest?
I have read and researched a lot and I didn’t know about the canon laws until today - and Yes those laws pertain to all - but how many people, if ever, have heard of the ‘seal’ being applied to them - we say ‘the priest’ must not break the seal - how often to we say ‘no one must break the seal of confession’ or else be excommunicated.
We are called sheep in the Bible for a good reason – we follow and those we trust to lead are the priests and church leaders.

Prevention is worth a pound of cure.
 
one last thing:

does anyone really want to walk out of the confessional and know that everyone now knows their sins - even if they never tell another soul?

There is the ‘screen’ so that even the priest doesn’t need to know who you are and your specific sins. And many of us still go to different parishes to confess anyway.
We don’t go to all this trouble to remain anonymous just so that those outside the confessional can both know our sins and know our faces.

There are - this I heard in the past, may be true or not - some people from other denominations who at sometimes for major problems may go to a catholic priest to discuss/confess because of the ‘seal’ of confession which gives them assured privacy to discuss an issue openly. It is very reassuring and loving this for the catholic church to do; which makes it all the more important to make sure it is truly secret/sealed.

Do we tell someone a secret in a place that it might be overhead by others? Do we say that those others are now responsible for not passing it on? The goal was for no one else to hear in the first place.
 
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