Seal of confession?

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Ok.
Not everyone who enters the confessional, during the time of confessions, and says “something”, is intending to confess nor is it considered attempting to confess. Is that a fair understanding?

So, if I go into a confessional, kneel down behind the screen, say something, that MAY or MAY NOT be kept under the seal. Right?
It depends on what you say.

To use my earlier example, if you say “Father, I just put the vases in the closet” (and nothing more than that before or after) well, that’s not protected by the seal. That sort of thing happens to priests all the time. Father is in the confessional, and people who are not confessing merely open the door and say things like “I left your keys on the hook” or “Father Smith asked me to tell you that he went to visit the hospital” or “the dry cleaner called, the altar cloths are ready” None of those are protected by the seal just because they happen to be said inside the confessional (remember, said by people who aren’t confessing).

If what you say has any resemblance to a confession, then it’s protected. No doubt, no hesitation.
 
Just one last time, the way I am reading what she wrote:

The person is in the confessional during confession time.

What is said is this:
“I’m sorry but I’m really angry and don’t want to be here. (Mass that day) I’m just doing what I’m forced to do bc I feel I have to.”

The person is attempting to confess anger at being at Mass that day? Being forced by ogre mom/dad to go?

Saying that, in that setting, although anger is not always a sin, is not an attempt to confess?
 
I read it as #4 example.
But you don’t?
I did too, but it’s apparent it was not according to the rubrics Fr is describing.

Which is rather flumoxing to me, but that’s my problem.😊
 
It appears that the confusion is arising over the first words “I’m sorry”.

Written words do not convey the emotion with which they are spoken. One can say I’m sorry…" in an aggressive, angry tone and the hearer does not here contrition, but anger. In this circumstance, “I’m sorry” may only mean “I’m sorry to unload on you but I have to tell someone - I am really angry about being coerced to go to…” The lead-in has nothing to do with confession; it is a semi-apology for bothering someone, not an apology for the anger.

On the other hand, one can say “I’m angry” in a low, contrite tone, and the hearer hears contrition, sadness, sorrow, (and etc.).

Neither the OP nor anyone else in this thread heard the individual who walked into the confessional (and according to the postings) started off with “I’m angry”, but the priest heard it. From the priest’s comments, it appears that he immediately perceived anger, not contrition.

Granted the fact that some people have not been to confession in a long time and may not know what is a fairly standard format for starting a confession (“Bless me, Father, for I ahve sinned. My last confession was XXXX ago and these are my sins:”), it is possible to start a confession by just getting directly to the matter - the sin(s).

But in doing so, most people who are intent in confessing sins are not going to come in and start in with an angry tone of voice, in a manner that is complaining rather than confessing.

In charity, we need to presume that a) the priest thoroughly understands the requirements of the seal of confession, and b) that he follows the the requirements of the seal.

The reaction of the priest, assuming a) and b) above, is that the individual who entered the confessional had no intent on confessing any sins real or perceived. It appears they were angry, and without being able to direct questions to them, we don’t know why they chose to vent at the priest. Perhaps they felt he was at fault for their feeling they were being compelled; it is not a stretch that they were somehow blaming the priest in part for their being present against their will (anger is not particularly logical in the objects it is expressed against).

As to the individual who addressed the priest, they may or may not have expected the matter to be under any seal; and given that many people do not understand the parameters of the seal that would not be surprising. Or the individual might not have even thought of the seal; they may just have presumed that if they expressed anger about something, the one to whom they expressed anger would not say anything no matter where or when the anger was expressed, or under what circumstances.

Or they may have never stopped to think about whether or not their comments would be confidential. They were just angry and venting. Emotions tend to trump logic, and anger is excellent at doing so.

The point that FrDavid96 is making is that most people who enter the confessional intend to start the sacrament of reconciliation. That does not mean that everyone who enters does so (my example of the the drunk applies). It is not a matter of “law”; it is a matter of intent.

One who intends to start the sacrament is given the seal by the Church, that the confessor may not reveal what was said (or not said - that is, they cannot reveal the substance of the confession). One who does not intend to start the sacrament (the drunk, or in this case, an angry individual coming in to spout off) does not start it and so there is nothing for the seal to attach to.

There is an entirely separate matter, and that is the issue of discretion. Discretion might indicate that something one person said to a priest should not be repeated to another, not because of any presumed privacy on the part of the one person, but simply because some things are best left unsaid. That one person may be telling others the same matter; they may even do it within the hearing of the priest, but discretion may be the wiser course even after it is clear that the speaker does not intend to keep things private.

As we know little about the conversation between the OP and the priest and have heard only one side, discretion within this thread would be appropriate; the priest is not available to defend themselves. That is not a statement about the OP in any way; just a suggestion that we not besmirch the priest’s character.

Would it have been better that he not have said what occurred? Maybe, but not having any opportunity to hear his side, we cannot actually judge that, only surmise. And that risks speaking for or against his reputation.
 
Just one last time, the way I am reading what she wrote:

The person is in the confessional during confession time.

What is said is this:
“I’m sorry but I’m really angry and don’t want to be here. (Mass that day) I’m just doing what I’m forced to do bc I feel I have to.”

The person is attempting to confess anger at being at Mass that day? Being forced by ogre mom/dad to go?

Saying that, in that setting, although anger is not always a sin, is not an attempt to confess?
No. The person is not attempting to confess anger. The person is not attempting to confess anything. That was clear to the priest.
 
A penitent who is not truly sorry for the sin. Again, the priest tells the penitent to come back later

I was taught that you did not have to feel sorry for the sin, simply accept the fact that the church has spoken and declared the “action” a sin.
I’m sure this has happened to lots of us. I simply cannot always feel remorse for some things I have done but I accept the fact that I am wrong. I know it might be a loop hole, but I like to have by bases covered just in case:D
 
I did too, but it’s apparent it was not according to the rubrics Fr is describing.

Which is rather flumoxing to me, but that’s my problem.😊
This is not about rubrics.

It is about having the intent to go to Confession, and/or making an attempt to go to Confession. I just don’t know how many times I can keep repeating that. The Seal of Confession is absolute, but it applies only to Confession and any attempt to go to Confession.

If there is no attempt and/or intent to celebrate the Sacrament, then there is no Seal of the Sacrament.

There’s nothing to be worried about, not with regard to the Seal of Confession.
 
sigh

Once again.

I will state clearly that I am not presuming or implying anything about the priest. I’m not even disagreeing with him/ or father here.

Saying I’m bothered by this new to me understanding of the seal or my obvious misunderstanding of it’s non application to this event, is not a declaration against his character.

If anything, one could argue it’s a declaration against my own!😊
 
No. The person is not attempting to confess anger. The person is not attempting to confess anything. That was clear to the priest.
"The priest then refused to listen further stating they were not spiritually prepared to give confession and told them to seek further counsel elsewhere. "

That is the response the priest gave. And it still wasn’t an attempt?

I understand her being very uncomfortable.

I am aware that when I priest asks someone to do this, seek counsel elsewhere, that even if you make an appointment with him, you usually have to start at ground zero because, in my experience, you can not say “I said in confession X”. They have just said, to me, what is it that is bothering you/concerning you that you need help with?
 
A penitent who is not truly sorry for the sin. Again, the priest tells the penitent to come back later

I was taught that you did not have to feel sorry for the sin, simply accept the fact that the church has spoken and declared the “action” a sin.
I’m sure this has happened to lots of us. I simply cannot always feel remorse for some things I have done but I accept the fact that I am wrong. I know it might be a loop hole, but I like to have by bases covered just in case:D
Starting off with “I’m sorry” does not necessarily refer to what follows. See my post 44. Someone who comes in angry and wants to vent their anger is not a penitent. They are just an angry person.

A penitent - one who intends to confess sins (whether or not feeling remorse, or being truly sorry) comes in and starts the sacrament.

One who does not intend to start the sacrament does not start it (like the drunk, or the person telling the priest the altar linens are ready, or someone coming in to vent anger at the priest).
 
This is not about rubrics.

It is about having the intent to go to Confession, and/or making an attempt to go to Confession. I just don’t know how many times I can keep repeating that. The Seal of Confession is absolute, but it applies only to Confession and any attempt to go to Confession.

If there is no attempt and/or intent to celebrate the Sacrament, then there is no Seal of the Sacrament.

There’s nothing to be worried about, not with regard to the Seal of Confession.
I don’t want you to keep repeating yourself either as I am just trying to understand it also - what attempt is - etc - with what was given.

I am all for giving everyone the benefit of the doubt.
 
sigh

Once again.

I will state clearly that I am not presuming or implying anything about the priest. I’m not even disagreeing with him/ or father here.

Saying I’m bothered by this new to me understanding of the seal or my obvious misunderstanding of it’s non application to this event, is not a declaration against his character.

If anything, one could argue it’s a declaration against my own!😊
Do you think he was attempting confession then even though he stated he was only there because his parents told him he had to be?

Completely off topic, but I’ve just realised you have 10 kids! :eek:
 
sigh

Once again.

I will state clearly that I am not presuming or implying anything about the priest. I’m not even disagreeing with him/ or father here.

Saying I’m bothered by this new to me understanding of the seal or my obvious misunderstanding of it’s non application to this event, is not a declaration against his character.

If anything, one could argue it’s a declaration against my own!😊
I know, and yes, I understand. It was just a caution to others.

And I would not expect most people to understand the issue, as it is not exactly an everyday occurrence. We all tend to make presumptions, and often they are right, or at least not wrong. Sometimes they are based on too little information, but this situation is a bit towards the esoteric.
 
"The priest then refused to listen further stating they were not spiritually prepared to give confession and told them to seek further counsel elsewhere. "

That is the response the priest gave. And it still wasn’t an attempt?
That’s right. It was not an attempt. The priest clearly -]said/-] determined (at least based on what we read) that it was not an attempt at the Sacrament.
I understand her being very uncomfortable.
I am aware that when I priest asks someone to do this, seek counsel elsewhere, that even if you make an appointment with him, you usually have to start at ground zero because, in my experience, you can not say “I said in confession X”. They have just said, to me, what is it that is bothering you/concerning you that you need help with?
But now you’re talking about something different. You’re talking about an actual Confession (or an attempt at one). That changes things–of course it does.
 
This is not about rubrics.

It is about having the intent to go to Confession, and/or making an attempt to go to Confession. I just don’t know how many times I can keep repeating that. The Seal of Confession is absolute, but it applies only to Confession and any attempt to go to Confession.

If there is no attempt and/or intent to celebrate the Sacrament, then there is no Seal of the Sacrament.

There’s nothing to be worried about, not with regard to the Seal of Confession.
Well I can yell right back at you I guess.

Rubrics, laws, rules, call it anything you want I don’t care.

The point is that according to what constitutes a valid confession, by what you have explained here, this person didn’t meet the requirement and thus there was no seal.

Which obviously means there’s no concern about the seal being broken and only concern about whether it exists at all for some circumstances.
 
Do you think he was attempting confession then even though he stated he was only there because his parents told him he had to be?

Completely off topic, but I’ve just realised you have 10 kids! :eek:
BINGO! This looks to be like what is the problem! The kid should have started with the magic words Bless me Father, for I have sinned. But he didn’t. I get both sides…
 
That’s right. It was not an attempt. The priest clearly said (at least based on what we read) that it was not an attempt at the Sacrament.

But now you’re talking about something different. You’re talking about an actual Confession (or an attempt at one). That changes things–of course it does.
The priest said they were not spiritually prepared to give a confession, not that they were not attempting to confess. The way I read it they attempted to confess but did not have the right contrition (OR, trying to confess something that isn’t a sin - anger).

The second part I included is because, me at least, believe when we kneel down in the confessional, during confession time, that we are attempting to confess something (confession) even if it isn’t a sin or we need additional help afterwards (counseling).
 


If anything, one could argue it’s a declaration against my own!😊
Hello,

There is no need to be ashamed. The situation you brought up here is very delicate and involves matters that are seldom addressed with the precision necessary for accuracy (if that makes sense). A person could write a thesis on the topic as you have presented it and still not cover all the bases.

I will also say that I have no problem seeing why you would be distressed at having heard the priest publicly speak of the event in question. You have said that you have spoken to a real-life priest and/or bishop about this. I would not hesitate to do so again, if the opportunity arises.

Dan
 
Well I can yell right back at you I guess.

Rubrics, laws, rules, call it anything you want I don’t care.

The point is that according to what constitutes a valid confession, by what you have explained here, this person didn’t meet the requirement and thus there was no seal.
Right. Not because of what I said though, because the priest who was actually involved determined that there was no attempt at confession. It’s an important point. I cannot make that determination from where I sit, but the priest in that situation did make that decision.
Which obviously means there’s no concern about the seal being broken
Right. There is no concern about the Seal being violated in the situation that’s been described.
and only concern about whether it exists at all for some circumstances.
I don’t know what you mean by this last part.
 
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