Seal of confidentiality, not in Confessional

[AndyF]

Can the Church confer on individuals a Seal of Confidentiality in certain cases?

For instance could information be of such importance that this Seal is given someone outside of the confessional context, either in the form of a promise or has a official policy?. A deeper promise to discretion is what I had in mind.

Just wondering.

AndyF

 

[1ke]

There is no such thing as a “seal of confidentiality.”

There are certainly laws regarding confidentiality of priest/penitent, both civil and church. There are also laws in some places that afford certain levels of confidentiality to conversations between a priest/pastor and parishioner in the context of ‘counseling.’ Similar to a doctor-patient privilege.

And, of course, teachings regarding detraction would apply:

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:

• of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;

 

[Gertabelle]

I don’t know about any official Church practice of this sort, but I do remember the incidence in which an abbess ordered her sisters under their vow of obedience (and therefore pain of mortal sin) not to say a single negative word about their abbey, or anything that could be construed as negative, when being interviewed by members of the Nazi party.

In that sense, a superior of a religious house could use this “power” (if you will) to create a seal of confidentiality.

Gertie

 

[puzzleannie]

Can the Church confer on individuals a Seal of Confidentiality in certain cases?

For instance could information be of such importance that this Seal is given someone outside of the confessional context, either in the form of a promise or has a official policy?. A deeper promise to discretion is what I had in mind.

Just wondering.

AndyF

absolute confidentiality pertains in other cases, such as many canon law tribunal matters as well.

 

[Joannm]

My director has told me that he puts anything I say to him during our sessions under the seal and he has reiterated it to me several times. He is my usual confessor also but many times confession isn’t part of our sessions. Still it is nice to know he keeps all we discuss confidential, although he will bring something up in confession that I might have said to him during direction so I guess our direction sessions are not completely under the seal. He just won’t say anything to anyone else but me.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

My director has told me that he puts anything I say to him during our sessions under the seal and he has reiterated it to me several times. He is my usual confessor also but many times confession isn’t part of our sessions. Still it is nice to know he keeps all we discuss confidential, although he will bring something up in confession that I might have said to him during direction so I guess our direction sessions are not completely under the seal. He just won’t say anything to anyone else but me.

While this would probably never be an issue for you, confidentiality in spiritual direction is limited. Unless its said in the confessional then the spiritual director has a moral obligation to report anything you say that might indicate harm to self or others. A spiritual director can also be compelled to testify in a criminal trial if anything you said relates to a crime.

 

[FrDavid96]

Can the Church confer on individuals a Seal of Confidentiality in certain cases?

For instance could information be of such importance that this Seal is given someone outside of the confessional context, either in the form of a promise or has a official policy?. A deeper promise to discretion is what I had in mind.

Just wondering.

AndyF

Yes. It’s known as the “internal forum.” Conversations (or knowlege gained from non-verbal sources) is confidential in the internal forum. The level of confidentiality, and the burden of keeping it will vary depending on the circumstances. As puzzleannie posted, marriage tribunals operate in the internal forum. So too would a parish secretary who has access to pre-marriage investigation documents. It even applies to those who count the Sunday collection–for example, they can’t discuss with someone else how much money so-and-so donated last week.

Not too long ago, my diocese was still requiring all parish secretaries (and anyone else in a similar capacity) to literally swear an oath of secrecy for any personal information learned in their employment. Of course, such an oath doesn’t apply in something like a criminal investigation, nor does it apply to sharing information with someone who has some other legitimate need-to-know (like sending a copy of the marriage records to the diocese).

Spiritual direction is done in the internal forum. The burden of confidentiality here is almost as strong as the Seal of the Confession (almost, but not quite).

Just how strong the burden of confidentiality will be depends on the gravity of the subject.

 

[FrJohnB]

Yes. It’s known as the “internal forum.” Conversations (or knowlege gained from non-verbal sources) is confidential in the internal forum. The level of confidentiality, and the burden of keeping it will vary depending on the circumstances. As puzzleannie posted, marriage tribunals operate in the internal forum. So too would a parish secretary who has access to pre-marriage investigation documents. It even applies to those who count the Sunday collection–for example, they can’t discuss with someone else how much money so-and-so donated last week.

Not too long ago, my diocese was still requiring all parish secretaries (and anyone else in a similar capacity) to literally swear an oath of secrecy for any personal information learned in their employment. Of course, such an oath doesn’t apply in something like a criminal investigation, nor does it apply to sharing information with someone who has some other legitimate need-to-know (like sending a copy of the marriage records to the diocese).

Spiritual direction is done in the internal forum. The burden of confidentiality here is almost as strong as the Seal of the Confession (almost, but not quite).

Just how strong the burden of confidentiality will be depends on the gravity of the subject.

I would have to agree with you that a secretary should be sworn to secrecy as they can deal with confidential records. It would be almost the same as the seal. One way to explain it is that the seal is similar to an attorney’s conversations and records with you, they just cannot be blabbed to anyone. I have also been asked to keep conversations between me and another as if it is under the seal.

 

[Padrej]

While this would probably never be an issue for you, confidentiality in spiritual direction is limited. Unless its said in the confessional then the spiritual director has a moral obligation to report anything you say that might indicate harm to self or others. A spiritual director can also be compelled to testify in a criminal trial if anything you said relates to a crime.

I hope you don’t mind a Protestant jumping in on this conversation. I have always been taught that if a person confesses to you something that is harmful to themselves or others that it cannot be held as under the seal. I had a person come to me under the guise of wanting to get something off his chest and wound up telling me about sexual abuse by a pastor on his child. The “confession” ceases at that moment and he was counseled on taking the matter up with both this person’s superior and the police.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I hope you don’t mind a Protestant jumping in on this conversation. I have always been taught that if a person confesses to you something that is harmful to themselves or others that it cannot be held as under the seal. I had a person come to me under the guise of wanting to get something off his chest and wound up telling me about sexual abuse by a pastor on his child. The “confession” ceases at that moment and he was counseled on taking the matter up with both this person’s superior and the police.

Under the canon law of the Catholic Church, if something is said during the sacrament of confession the priest cannot repeat it. The seal of the confessional is absolute in Catholicism.
Now, in the situation you just described, I’d probably try to quickly find a way to end the sacrament and continue the conversation outside the sacrament.

[Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.

Can. 984 §2. A person who has been placed in authority cannot use in any manner for external governance the knowledge about sins which he has received in confession at any time.](Vatican)

 

[Padrej]

Under the canon law of the Catholic Church, if something is said during the sacrament of confession the priest cannot repeat it. The seal of the confessional is absolute in Catholicism.
Now, in the situation you just described, I’d probably try to quickly find a way to end the sacrament and continue the conversation outside the sacrament.

[Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.

Can. 984 §2. A person who has been placed in authority cannot use in any manner for external governance the knowledge about sins which he has received in confession at any time.](Vatican)

That is exactly what I did. I stopped the “confession” and said that what he is telling me is a crime against his family and cannot be considered under the seal and then went on from there to advise proper procedure to bring said pastor to justice.

 

[MarkThompson]

I have always been taught that if a person confesses to you something that is harmful to themselves or others that it cannot be held as under the seal.

Just wanted to quote this part to make clear that, whatever you might do to end the confession, this much isn’t true. Anything said in confession can be, and absolutely is, “held as under the seal.”

 

[FrDavid96]

I hope you don’t mind a Protestant jumping in on this conversation. I have always been taught that if a person confesses to you something that is harmful to themselves or others that it cannot be held as under the seal. I had a person come to me under the guise of wanting to get something off his chest and wound up telling me about sexual abuse by a pastor on his child. The “confession” ceases at that moment and he was counseled on taking the matter up with both this person’s superior and the police.

A Catholic priest wouldn’t be able to even say that the information was first learned in Confession. Anything said in Confession, regardless of what is it is absolutely sealed. Even to hint at the fact that information which later became revealed in the external forum (even to the point of being public knowlege) was first revealed/learned in Confession would be impossible.

The reason I bring this up is for Catholics to understand that what happened in that scenario could never happen in a Catholic Confession.

Padrej: I wish you a big “welcome home” in your faith-journey!

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

That is exactly what I did. I stopped the “confession” and said that what he is telling me is a crime against his family and cannot be considered under the seal and then went on from there to advise proper procedure to bring said pastor to justice.

A Catholic priest cannot do that. Once the confession ends, a Catholic priest cannot bring up what was said during the sacrament. The only way is to trick the person into retelling the info. Essentially, I would say, “Why don’t we leave the confessional and step into my office to discuss this in more detail.” And when we reach the office, once the individual repeats the story, I can use what they said in my office.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Fathers, (plural), what if your spiritual director is a priest, and, while you’re not formally entering into the sacrament as part of the SD session, you end up revealing confessional material (current potential confessional material) to the priest – partly because you want to know whether it needs to be confessed! Then what? (And I’m referring not to anything criminal, or harmful to self/others) Sometimes conversations can wander into personal moral decision-making although they didn’t start there.

I ask this question seriously, but as an aside I find these other revelations fascinating.

 

[FrJohnB]

A Catholic priest cannot do that. Once the confession ends, a Catholic priest cannot bring up what was said during the sacrament. The only way is to trick the person into retelling the info. Essentially, I would say, “Why don’t we leave the confessional and step into my office to discuss this in more detail.” And when we reach the office, once the individual repeats the story, I can use what they said in my office.

I don’t like to use the words “trick the person” as it sounds like you would be dishonest. I know that is not what you intended to say. Maybe “persuade them to talk outside the confession” would be what would be more appropriate terms and would sound less like priests trick people into spilling things.

 

[Padrej]

Fathers, (plural), what if your spiritual director is a priest, and, while you’re not formally entering into the sacrament as part of the SD session, you end up revealing confessional material (current potential confessional material) to the priest – partly because you want to know whether it needs to be confessed! Then what? (And I’m referring not to anything criminal, or harmful to self/others) Sometimes conversations can wander into personal moral decision-making although they didn’t start there.

I ask this question seriously, but as an aside I find these other revelations fascinating.

I know that I am not Catholic per se so let me answer this from the perspective of Anglicanism so that you would get a feel of what I would do.
First, in my mind the confessional is sacred and you dare not speak what is told you there. If you started to speak to me one on one and things you say are still confidential unless it can do you harm or others. Say if you have spoken about thoughts of suicide a red flag goes up in my mind and I would start routing you to good counseling. If it is the problems with significant other and your relationship with the other, that would be kept confidential because if I spoke to the other that would do you both harm. NOW, if during this conversation you say “can you speak to my husband about x” then I would say something to the effect of, “I would like you both present and what specifically do you want me to speak of” this gives me the permission to discuss ONLY what you give permission to speak about.

When a person comes to me and says, “Pastor I need to talk” I would still keep this confidential as I would not want to violate that trust. I have had a person do this to me and I know how much it hurts as I was under the impression that what I spoke about in confidence was just that. Lets say, to use you model, that you were speaking to me in a one on one session, and you say some things about personal decisions in your life, I would go to saying" You are starting to speak of personal things, do you want this kept confidential?" This also gives you the opportunity to say, “this item is confidential while that subject is common knowledge.”

I guess what I am trying to say is there all all kinds of fine lines that can get crossed, and it is up to the person you are speaking to as to what he deems under the seal and just confidential. I have met some priests who say, “unless it is said in the confession box with my stole on it is not under the seal.” I do not hold to that line of thinking because if we were speaking together and you said to me “keep this confidential” or “treat this as under the seal” I would be bound to do so.

 

[FrDavid96]

Fathers, (plural), what if your spiritual director is a priest, and, while you’re not formally entering into the sacrament as part of the SD session, you end up revealing confessional material (current potential confessional material) to the priest – partly because you want to know whether it needs to be confessed! Then what? (And I’m referring not to anything criminal, or harmful to self/others) Sometimes conversations can wander into personal moral decision-making although they didn’t start there.

I ask this question seriously, but as an aside I find these other revelations fascinating.

If the spiritual director is a priest, then most likely he’s also the confessor. The Seal of Confession only applies to the actual Sacrament–however remember that the “seal” of the internal forum applies to spiritual direction and the director is still bound by a very high level of confidentiality. In the scenario you present, this would depend upon the relationship existing between the director and the directee. If those conversations often “change” (I keep wanting to write “morph” but that sounds odd) into outright confessions, then the Seal of confession would apply–especially if it does indeed become a confession.

Allow me to be a little more concrete. Let’s say that one has a relationship where the directee often begins by saying “I don’t know if this is a sin but…” and that conversation usually leads to an outright confession in the sense of the penitent saying “the sins I just mentioned a moment ago…” In that case, the seal would certainly apply because the entire spiritual session is one long extended confession.

In any case, the obligation to keep secrecy of the “internal forum” would apply–no question about it, regardless of what’s said or the circumstances.

The obligation to keep secrecy of the internal forum in either confession or spiritual direction is still absolute. The main difference is that the penalty for breaking the seal of confession is much greater–because the crime of violating it is greater. The other difference is that the spiritual director is permitted to reveal to a religious superior the fact that one had been attending direction, but without revealing any of the content; for example, a spiritual director in a seminary is permitted to say to the rector “yes, he attended last week” but nothing more, while a confessor is not even permitted to say “yes, he went to confession last week.”

Bottom line: yes, spiritual direction occurs in the internal forum and the secrecy of it cannot be violated.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I don’t like to use the words “trick the person” as it sounds like you would be dishonest. I know that is not what you intended to say. Maybe “persuade them to talk outside the confession” would be what would be more appropriate terms and would sound less like priests trick people into spilling things.

Yeah, it was a poor choice of words. But you also don’t want to verbally draw such a dark line between the confessional and the office that the individual decides they don’t want to say anything anymore.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Fathers, (plural), what if your spiritual director is a priest, and, while you’re not formally entering into the sacrament as part of the SD session, you end up revealing confessional material (current potential confessional material) to the priest – partly because you want to know whether it needs to be confessed! Then what? (And I’m referring not to anything criminal, or harmful to self/others) Sometimes conversations can wander into personal moral decision-making although they didn’t start there.

I ask this question seriously, but as an aside I find these other revelations fascinating.

As long as you’re not talking about harm to yourself or others then it remains confidential.