Searching for the Truth

  • Thread starter Thread starter FreeSmith
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The fact that you have resorted to arguing semantics, is all the confirmation I need that you can’t counter my refutations of your claims.!
It is perfectly legitimate to criticize your semantics, since, if you don’t understand the meanings of various technical words used to convey a point, then you will fail to make your point. In case you haven’t noticed, correct use of language is necessary for making sense.

And what alleged “argument” of mine have you “refuted” in this thread? Sounds like you are inventing your own realities, buddy. Again, “refutation” means that you’ve shown a logical **proof **of something that I said is false. So where’s this refutation??
Incidentally, I started reading through the ‘evidence’ thread as you suggested. I stopped when I got to Leela’s replication of your post where you claim that subjective personal experience of a religious event (you use the resurrection, although you don’t make it clear how a modern-day believer can have personal experience of this two-thousand-year-old alleged event) is sufficient evidence for it to be an objective reality!
If you knew how to read, you would notice I said that “Jesus rose from the dead” is not merely a historical proposition like any other historical proposition such as “Caesar crossed the Rubicon,” but a proposition expressing religious realities that are, in principle, unverifiable just like many other metaphysical claims that are in principle unverifiable but very plausible like “nothing can be both red and green all over,” or “a point lacks depth, breadth, and length.” Also, can you tell me what empirical evidence you have that **you **exist?? Can you tell me what empirical evidence you have that the external world exists? What if you were a brain in a vat?..Merely entertaining this possibility, defeats all your appeal to empirical evidence for justification in thinking the external world does exist, since a brain in a vat would have the exact same experiences that you have now. So there is **no **way of scientifically verifying the brain-in-a-vat hypothesis is false. But you certainly believe the external world exists, do you not? And you are rational to do so.
 
Originally Posted by Ferde Rombola
How so? You’re permanently on defense. You have no offense.

It seems that for the athiest also. As I’ve told you, we have evidence. You don’t. I understand you reject the evidence, but that’s just the denial you allude to.

👍
Quite so. The expansion of the universe, for instance, is perfectly admissible as evidence for the hypothesis that the universe had a beginning, even if it’s not proof. But nothing is ever proved in science anyway. The mere fact that you can’t “prove” a hypothesis doesn’t mean the expansion of the universe doesn’t qualify as evidence*** for ***the hypothesis!! Sheesh!

“I don’t like your hypothesis that the universe was created, so I will just deny that the expansion of the universe counts as evidence for that hypothesis.” LOL!

Truly, the burden is on the atheist for telling us what does and does not **count **as evidence if he denies the expansion of the universe counts as evidence. He needs to offer a criterion specifying what kind of data counts as evidence before he can have any justification for denying that the expansion of the universe is evidence.
 
How so? You’re permanently on defense. You have no offense.

It seems that for the athiest also. As I’ve told you, we have evidence. You don’t. I understand you reject the evidence, but that’s just the denial you allude to.
Ah, I see. The atheist position being what it is, you’re just interpreting that as defensive. Asking for evidence and then pointing out the flaws in such evidence is ‘defensive.’ Fair enough - you’re entitled to your somewhat loopy interpretation. Maybe you think we should get all ‘offensive’ and make a baseless claim about something, like you guys do?

It’s a common theist claim that the evidence is robust, and equally common that the atheist’s rejection of it is ‘just denial’ (usually for laughable reasons such as a desire for hedonism/homosexuality or something). It’s nonsense of course, but I accept that the theist can never admit that without risking the realisation that they believe in a fairy tale.
 
i understand empirical evidence, you are confusing it with subjectivity and the techniques of the scientific method. im not seeking to prove a problem objjectively, im pointing out that it is something i can physically see. you do have an obligation to restrict your posts to a reasonable length if you insist on using a faulty terminal.the problem is at your end, because your the only poster with the problem and it varies by the terminal you use.and its still a problem because you refuse to act reasonably and restrict your posts to a length where your faulty equipment doesnt impose an undue burden on the reader. the only advantage to either of us in this case would be to you. because you could hope that your opponent will just give up. which is what i am beginning to think, otherwise you would simply act to fix it, by reducing your post length or changing terminals. but you dont.
You’ve never before said that it varies depending which setup I’m using. I’m currently using Firefox under XP - my posts of a few hours ago were made using IE under XP. Can you see any difference?

If it is a problem with my setup then I’ll investigate - but I repeat, your message has always been consistently that all my posts are the same.

All that notwithstanding, let me repeat some facts:
  1. Nobody else has ever complained.
  2. All my posts look fine to me, no matter which combination of browsers/OS/IP address I’m using. That includes Ubuntu, XP, W7, Firefox and IE8, plus my home (dynamic) IP address and my work fixed IP proxy. That’s quite a combination, with consistent readability.
I resent the implication that you think I’m intentionally trying to make you give up. I have no reason to do so, because I do not find your arguments anywhere near compelling enough to make me think I’m going to lose the argument. I do, however, get frustrated with your penchant for repetition without clarification, and your idiosyncratic refusal to follow the rules of grammar. It makes your posts more difficult to read, although in this case it’s definitely something you’re doing intentionally.

I’m more likely to give up than you, but not because your arguments are superior, just that it’s effectively flogging a dead horse. I honestly believe that you are either unwilling or unable to see reason… but then I guess you think the same about me! Please see my next post on this - I’m happy to start from scratch with the argument of your choice.
 
Cutting to the chase…
please make a specific example of this. i dont know where you are getting this idea. if you dont know the basis for our logical exposition of the necessity of G-d, then we can start with heirarchical contingency and work all the way back.
Let’s do that. I think I am aware of the Cosmological argument, but maybe I’ve missed something (along with everybody else who published a refutation!). So off you go - if you’re happy, present your argument and we’ll take it from there.
 
You’ve never before said that it varies depending which setup I’m using. I’m currently using Firefox under XP - my posts of a few hours ago were made using IE under XP. Can you see any difference?

If it is a problem with my setup then I’ll investigate - but I repeat, your message has always been consistently that all my posts are the same.
from post #81
or some of the computers that you have used are WYSIWYG. i had similar problems with a linux box in 2000 or 2001.
not all your posts, just the majority of them show up that way. as you mentioned before, you use more than one computer.
and in post *87 i displayed how it looked to me on that computer being used at the time.

so…i did.
All that notwithstanding, let me repeat some facts:
  1. Nobody else has ever complained.
  2. All my posts look fine to me, no matter which combination of browsers/OS/IP address I’m using. That includes Ubuntu, XP, W7, Firefox and IE8, plus my home (dynamic) IP address and my work fixed IP proxy. That’s quite a combination, with consistent readability.
and no one elses shows up the way yours does from that system.
I resent the implication that you think I’m intentionally trying to make you give up.
you havent been willing to cooperate to solve the problem. so how else can i reasonably see it? if it isnt purposeful it seems to me that you wouldnt write post after post about how im wrong. you would just help fix it.
I have no reason to do so, because I do not find your arguments anywhere near compelling enough to make me think I’m going to lose the argument.
you fail to recognize and accede to demonstrated fallacies or logical contradictions when demonstrated. you dont seem to realize that such things make a particular argument false.
I do, however, get frustrated with your penchant for repetition without clarification,
then make sure to tell me what needs furhter clarification, i cant read your mind, and here on the philosophy forum, expect posters to know the basics. if i talk about something that isnt clear then tell me.
and your idiosyncratic refusal to follow the rules of grammar. It makes your posts more difficult to read, although in this case it’s definitely something you’re doing intentionally.
yes, i think mostly in pictures. i just dont bother with capitilization. for me that is a matter of the import of the word. not grammatical rules. i try to break up my thoughts by spacing them out to help make it more digestible.
I’m more likely to give up than you, but not because your arguments are superior, just that it’s effectively flogging a dead horse. I honestly believe that you are either unwilling or unable to see reason… but then I guess you think the same about me! Please see my next post on this - I’m happy to start from scratch with the argument of your choice.
fair enough.
 
Cutting to the chase…Let’s do that. I think I am aware of the Cosmological argument, but maybe I’ve missed something (along with everybody else who published a refutation!). So off you go - if you’re happy, present your argument and we’ll take it from there.
lets play with this one from the stanford encyclopedia.
1.A contingent being (a being that if it exists can not-exist) exists.
2.This contingent being has a cause of or explanation[1] for its existence.
3.The cause of or explanation for its existence is something other than the contingent being itself.
4.What causes or explains the existence of this contingent being must either be solely other contingent beings or include a non-contingent (necessary) being.
5.Contingent beings alone cannot provide an adequate causal account or explanation for the existence of a contingent being.
6.Therefore, what causes or explains the existence of this contingent being must include a non-contingent (necessary) being.
7.Therefore, a necessary being (a being that if it exists cannot not-exist) exists.
 
Ah, I see. The atheist position being what it is, you’re just interpreting that as defensive. Asking for evidence and then pointing out the flaws in such evidence is ‘defensive.’
So what are the flaws in the evidence?

This still sounds like stubborn denial to me if you can’t come up with any good reasons…🤷
 
“(3) Empirical evidence is never “true” or “false.” It either exists or doesn’t. Only hypotheses, propositions, and theories can be true or false.” This quote from a reply in Catholic Answers Forum demonstrates the illusion inherent in “empiricism,” that sensations are data in the sense that they provide their own identities.
In fact, we all have a choice as to what aspects of real entities we elect to abstract. The aspect that we select is only one of the infinite number of possible aspects inherent in every real entity. When we select an aspect, the identity of the item becomes in our mind a relation to prior sensations, and we call the sense of connections “substances,” or classes, or categories. The natural operations of the brain do this and nothing else. This is the structure of thought, or reasoning, both conscious and subconscious. The whole web of such relations we call our “mind.” In short, data is not self-explanatory. Data is intelligible only after it becomes a relation to prior data classes as held in memory. This fact accounts for the common experience of two people seeing “different things” in the same situation. They are merely abstracting a different aspect from their common view but with their different, respective purposes for looking.
This illusion, that sensed data speaks intelligibility for itself, possesses the minds of most, modern scientists and becomes the basis for their dogmatism in such statements as, That is scientifically impossible, and the like. However, philosophically informed scientists know that data is whatever the observer makes of it. It does not speak for itself, as empiricism implies.
Sensed entities are objectively present to the bodily senses, but what the mind makes of sensations is selective. This is not radical subjectivism, for the goal of mind is to adequate reality in the sense of corresponding the mind to mind-independent forms outside it. This is achieved by the memory of multiple sensations of similar objects.
 
Originally posted by Syntax:
  1. Empirical evidence is never “true” or “false.” It either exists or doesn’t. Only hypotheses, propositions, and theories can be true or false."
"(This quote from a reply in Catholic Answers Forum demonstrates the illusion inherent in “empiricism,” that sensations are data in the sense that they provide their own identities. In fact, we all have a choice as to what aspects of real entities we elect to abstract. The aspect that we select is only one of the infinite number of possible aspects inherent in every real entity. When we select an aspect, the identity of the item becomes in our mind a relation to prior sensations, and we call the sense of connections “substances,” or classes, or categories. The natural operations of the brain do this and nothing else. This is the structure of thought, or reasoning, both conscious and subconscious. The whole web of such relations we call our “mind.” In short, data is not self-explanatory. Data is intelligible only after it becomes a relation to prior data classes as held in memory. This fact accounts for the common experience of two people seeing “different things” in the same situation. They are merely abstracting a different aspect from their common view but with their different, respective purposes for looking.
This illusion, that sensed data speaks intelligibility for itself, possesses the minds of most, modern scientists and becomes the basis for their dogmatism in such statements as, That is scientifically impossible, and the like. However, philosophically informed scientists know that data is whatever the observer makes of it. It does not speak for itself, as empiricism implies.
Sensed entities are objectively present to the bodily senses, but what the mind makes of sensations is selective. This is not radical subjectivism, for the goal of mind is to adequate reality in the sense of corresponding the mind to mind-independent forms outside it. This is achieved by the memory of multiple sensations of similar objects.
Absolutely! You said it! 👍 In fact, the very skepticism toward scientific methodology is continually proposed by practicing scientists and philosphers themselves such as Kuhn, van Fraassen, Quine, Duhem, Popper, Carnap, Hempel, Salmon, Kitcher, Cartwright, Maxwell, Feyerband, Strawson, etc.

Just yesterday in another thread, I listed a few problems these individuals will mention concerning scientific methodology.

"(1) Problem of our complete incapability of grounding Induction and the non-observability of Natural Necessity (Laws)
(2) Problem of non-epistemic Social factors within the Scientific Community itself which ultimately guide their choices in Theory Change
(3) Asymmetry of Utility and Truth
(4) The mutually exclusive trade-off between Theoretical Explanations and Empirical Accuracy
(5) The Looming Circularity threatening all methods of Confirmation in Test Situations
(6) The Quine-Duhem Thesis of *Underdetermination *which says all Theories will be forever underdetermined with respect to the evidence, and hence truly unfalsifiable.
(7) The Pessimistic Induction about all past scientific failures

These are not skeptical positions proposed by some whacky post-modern idiot. They are genuine concerns that come from practicing scientists and philosophers themselves. And how we attempt to provide solutions to these problems will have a drastic impact on our view of what science is actually doing and what it consists of. Does scientific methodology really consist of the pursuit of freedom from error, or does it consist in the repeated employment of confirmation biases and untestable assumptions at its core?"
 
Greetings to you, Catholics and others.

I have been on a spiritual journey as of late, and I have learned much.

I was an atheist just a year ago or so. Today, I’m a Deist with no particular beliefs about God.

Recently, however, I have found myself considering the claims of the Catholic Church. I believe if there is any truth to the claims of Jesus, then his truth is best represented in the Catholic Church.

Right now, I seem to have hit a roadblock. I don’t know whether I’m a Christian or a Deist. I just can’t get any further.

I ask, are there any others out there who have/had the same problem? Do you have any experiences with “spiritual writer’s block”?

FS,

It sounds to me that you are still not sure about whether or not to cross the threshold of Hope. What I mean is this, "to let go of the doubt and just beleive that God is real, sent His Son, and left us the Church to help us in our journey to be with Him. You need the courage to jump.

I have been there, and I think I can speak for every person who finally realized that believing from our hearts is what we need to do.

Just pray about it, God hears your prayer!
 
Yes, you can just let go and let God. In this life there are no certainties. Why you don’t decide is because you want a certainty out ahead. The only certainty in this life is the certainty of a probability: If you are certain that one choice rather than another will more probably yield to you a personal benefit, that is as certain as life gets. There are no guarantees; Christ does not give Heaven. What he gives is the certainty of the probability that He gives Heaven. That is our only hope; all the others are forms of despair. And despair is the certainty of the probability of passing at death back into the nothingness from which the Father called each of us at our conception. Just act on the probability that the Church has got it right and let your conscience rest in that. It’s more a matter of letting than of searching.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top