Seceeding from the Union

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Ana_v said:
I’m interested in reading your opinions, moral analysis I mean, on secession, as a solution/response to the crisis in the United States (its societal evils , economic failing, political attacks on religious freedom, and militarism).

Is this incompatible with the principle that we are, in general, to obey government authorities?
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I think it’s a great idea. If a State wanted to be a Country, it would just have to sign a treaty with the US Government.
  1. Put people back to work.
  2. Create its own currency and tax system. And divest itself from Wall Street.
  3. Kick out the ACLU.
  4. Create a simple Justice system modeled on the actually good parts of our present system.
  5. Freedom of worship or choosing not to worship.
  6. An educational system that taught only facts, and aside from teaching about the law and government - providing ZERO room for ANY Political agenda.
  7. Local news not provided by any existing national news carrier, with a link to national news sources.
  8. If a man fathers a child out of wedlock, he must attend classes regarding being a father to his child and a husband. Even If the mother does not want him, he will work and pay for support. The child will be told who his father is.
Peace,
Ed
 
GEddie said:
Ok, but this just shows that the movement is not originating at the state level. It is a grassroots stunt, and it would not surprise me if half of it were originating from outside each state.

Secessionism as a rural-vs. urban conflict makes zero sense. If you somehow created new nations that were entirely rural, these places would at once sink below third world status.

ICXC NIKA
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Funny. Very funny. My parents and one of my closest friends both lived on farms. They didn’t need a TV, IPad, IPhone or whatever. Poor? Hardly. They could use money or trade produce with their neighbors. People canned fruit and still do. They made their own soap.

Give a State a power outage lasting more than a few days and your gadgets become useless. I drank well water and still can get it.

It makes all the sense in the world. For one, people would get to know their neighbors.

Peace,
Ed
 
GEddie said:
Ok, but this just shows that the movement is not originating at the state level. It is a grassroots stunt, and it would not surprise me if half of it were originating from outside each state.

Secessionism as a rural-vs. urban conflict makes zero sense. If you somehow created new nations that were entirely rural, these places would at once sink below third world status.

ICXC NIKA
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I would think it would be the other way. Urban areas have no energy reserves or major food source.
 
Vermont was the last of the 50 states to reach the threshold number of 150 signatures. It is now at 261 and climbing rapidly: Vermont.
 
Seeker1961 said:
Sure, I just don’t think anyone should be taking it seriously.
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Personally, I think at some point and time the union will just dissolve. I think the debt will become so bad that the government will collapse. I think the conflict that follows will make the War Between the States look like a schoolyard brawl. Time will tell.
 
garn9173 said:
Texas ranchers would beg to differ.

Edit: Those petitions should be taken with a grain of salt. I see that there is one for Iowa and the majority of “signatures” are from those outside of Iowa. So anyone can sign despite being asked for your zip code upon registration.
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I happen to be the son of texas ranchers, the first one off the land. The fact is you cannot make a living from ranching alone. Oil was found on our land and things went well for about 20 years untilnthe wells ran dry.

Other ranchers make it by renting hunting leases (there is not a square inch of texas that is public land). Dude ranches, zoos, and retail sales.

The giant King Ranch in south texas has a big store (the king ranch saddle store), and sells by mail as well. I am on the mailing list and occasionally buy boots from them becuase they stock my rare size. The boots are very exspensive and are all I can afford from the KRSS.

Just ranching alone will no longer put food on the table here.
 
pete_29 said:
I think it’s good for us to get the frustration out of our system though. Wouldn’t you agree?
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What would you think if conservative central and southern Ill (egypt) secceded from Chicago?

When I lived in Springfield I got really irritated with people thinking that Chicago was all there is in Illinois.
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
P.S. No single state you mentioned can speak for the whole of the confederacy, if slavery was the primary purpose then why didn’t any state but Alabama list it as a cause? The closest you get elsewhere is the description of southern slave-holding states, which doesn’t imply that the injury done to said states has anything to do with the fact they hold slaves. Heck, why secede to begin with when there was no challenge to slavery? Lincoln wasn’t an abolitionist.
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You’ve been mislead.

While the actual Ordinances of Secession were (exact for Alabama) very succinct documents that didn’t mention slavery, most states simultaneously adopted a “Declaration of the Causes of Secession” and these declarations did mention slavery.

FREX;

GEORGIA
The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. ** For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.**
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MISSISSIPPI
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery– the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
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SOUTH CAROLINA
These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. ** The right of property in slaves was recognized **by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.
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We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.
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TEXAS
Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings.** She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery**-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?
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sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html
 
GEddie said:
If Texas did secede (it will not) and if the T2R’s leaders had any semblance of a mind (no guarantee of that), the first order of business would be to round up all the environmentalists (no biggie, most of them live in Austin), and provide them an armed escort to the Oklahoma border.

Then provide loans to the owners to expand the refineries at Baytown, Corpus Christi, etc.

And frack, baby, frack.

ICXC NIKA
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Haha! Now you’re talking!
 
GEddie said:
If Texas did secede (it will not) and if the T2R’s leaders had any semblance of a mind (no guarantee of that), the first order of business would be to round up all the environmentalists (no biggie, most of them live in Austin), and provide them an armed escort to the Oklahoma border.
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Aww, why do that to Oklahoma? Send them to New Mexico, they’ll be right at home in that blue state.
 
andrewstx said:
What would you think if conservative central and southern Ill (egypt) secceded from Chicago?

When I lived in Springfield I got really irritated with people thinking that Chicago was all there is in Illinois.
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Sorry, but Chicago owns Illinois. That’s one reason I want to move away.
 
GEddie said:
If Texas did secede (it will not) and if the T2R’s leaders had any semblance of a mind (no guarantee of that), the first order of business would be to round up all the environmentalists (no biggie, most of them live in Austin), and provide them an armed escort to the Oklahoma border.

Then provide loans to the owners to expand the refineries at Baytown, Corpus Christi, etc.

And frack, baby, frack.
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No need. Austin has a petition to secede from Texas: City of Austin files counter-petition to secede from Texas.

rossum
 
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