Seceeding from the Union

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GEddie said:
:):)🙂

OK is nearer to Austin. Gotta save gas!!!
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Get real. Texans saving gas, you must be joking. Where I live in texas I must be the only one interested in saving gas.
The huge majority drive huge pick-ups or giant SUVs, and just as fast as they will go.

Even most of poor drive mega-trucks.

Saving gas in texas…lol.
 
GEddie said:
The silliness has no limits.

I would hate to hear what the rest of the world thinks of us now.
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If texas secceeds from the union I will just move 20 miles to the border and go back to my birthplace, New Mexico where southern baptists don’t rule and there are Catholics and Eastern Catholics.

Everyone here is baptist or evangelical "non denominational"and beer is banned.

Not that I am a big drinker, I just want to decide for myself.
 
andrewstx said:
If texas secceeds from the union I will just move 20 miles to the border and go back to my birthplace, New Mexico where southern baptists don’t rule and there are Catholics and Eastern Catholics.

Everyone here is baptist or evangelical "non denominational"and beer is banned.

Not that I am a big drinker, I just want to decide for myself.
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Where in Texas are you??? There is no lack of booze around here.
 
GEddie said:
The silliness has no limits.

I would hate to hear what the rest of the world thinks of us now.
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It’s funny. Even today there’s that split. I realized today that if I was living in a border state, I would be a Unionist and my Dad would be a Secessionist. I can understand how families would be split.

I suppose that’s where a large part of people’s opinions on Lincoln stem from (not all of it, but a large part): Was Lincoln doing the right thing in preserving the Union?

Your answer will go a long way towards determining whether or not you think Lincoln was a great President or a butcher. Not all the way-but a long way.
 
GEddie said:
Where in Texas are you??? There is no lack of booze around here.
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West Texas near the NM border where there are lots of dry counties, everywhere. The baptists decide for everyone whether or not to imbibe.
 
andrewstx said:
West Texas near the NM border where there are lots of dry counties, everywhere. The baptists decide for everyone whether or not to imbibe.
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Because almost no-one else has chosen to live in such a remote dust bowl. Even the Spanish-Mexicans left the region alone when they owned Texas.

Besides, isn’t that local self-determination, the whole idea behind secession??

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
Because almost no-one else has chosen to live in such a remote dust bowl. Even the Spanish-Mexicans left the region alone when they owned Texas.

Besides, isn’t that local self-determination, the whole idea behind secession??

ICXC NIKA
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There are cities where real people live in Westex. maybe you have heard of some of them like El Paso, Amarillo, Lubbock, Odessa. I’m sure the republicans have heard of Midland home of the Bushes?

But you are right, other than El Paso not many were here before the ahl bidness, and when the oil runs out (as it will) people will flee like rats on a sinking ship. Even now we have stripper wells and fracking to get to the last drop.
 
andrewstx said:
There are cities where real people live in Westex. maybe you have heard of some of them like El Paso, Amarillo, Lubbock, Odessa. I’m sure the republicans have heard of Midland home of the Bushes?

But you are right, other than El Paso not many were here before the ahl bidness, and when the oil runs out (as it will) people will flee like rats on a sinking ship. Even now we have stripper wells and fracking to get to the last drop.
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I know Lubbock and EP. I also know how far those cities are from anyplace else. It is indeed a remote dust bowl.

Still, if a majority in a county want an alcohol ban, isn’t that local self determination and democracy? The very idea that secessionists are gasping for.

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
I know Lubbock and EP. I also know how far those cities are from anyplace else. It is indeed a remote dust bowl.

Still, if a majority in a county want an alcohol ban, isn’t that local self determination and democracy? The very idea that secessionists are gasping for.

ICXC NIKA
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What gave you the idea I’m for secession? If texas secceeds from the union I will have to seceed from texas.

Texas is the worst place for the poor and disabled to be, and I am both. If they seceed they will probably take the poor, disabeld. democrats, non tea party republicans, feminists, and homosexuals and men who don’t fit the macho stereotype out to shoot.

Really don’t like texas, parents just put me here and I can’t afford to leave…

I think people un willing or unable to live in a society should maybe go nto individaul desert islands.
 
Ana_v said:
I’m interested in reading your opinions, moral analysis I mean, on secession, as a solution/response to the crisis in the United States (its societal evils , economic failing, political attacks on religious freedom, and militarism).

Is this incompatible with the principle that we are, in general, to obey government authorities?
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As long as counties can then seceed from states… 🙂
 
Leaving aside the question of whether or not it is prudent to actually secede (not “succeed”!) from the union, I think it is a good thing for all Americans to understand how to approach the OP’s question. I think looking at it from the perspective of the Principle of Double Effect can be instructive. The Principle of Double Effect addresses the question of whether or not it is permissible to take a certain course of action if it can reasonably be foreseen to have two effects, one of which is good and the other of which is evil.

In the question at hand, the two effects could be articulated as:
  1. The good effect is that the people of the state that seceded would live in greater political freedom.
  2. There may be several evil effects, but let’s stick to one: it may lead to civil war.
For it to be moral to pursue this course, there are four conditions which must be simultaneously met:
  1. The act, in itself, must be either morally good or morally neutral. I think it’s clear that the dissolving of political bonds between one group of people and another is not in itself a moral evil. If it were, then we could never justify even a border adjustment between two countries. So this condition is clearly met.
  2. The good effect must not be contingent on the evil effect occurring. That is to say, the good and evil effects must be independent, or, if they are not independent, then the evil effect must be a result of the good effect, not the other way around. In this case, the greater political freedom of the state that seceded could occur independently of whether or not the United States decided to go to war to prevent it. So this condition is met.
  3. Only the good effect can be intended. I think it is clear that those who would want to secede would want to do so peacefully. So this condition, too, is met.
  4. There must be a reasonable balance between the good and evil effects. In other words, it can’t be a small good and a huge evil. In my opinion, it is at least debatable whether or not this condition would be met.
So it seems that, at least from the perspective of the Principle of Double Effect, the morality of secession depends upon a careful consideration of the relative weight of the good effect and the bad effect. Would the greater peace and freedom be at least roughly equal to the damage done if a war were to ensue? You would have to consider all the effects of war, including damage to the economy, families, physical infrastructure, the damage to the rights of the residents of the seceding state who don’t want to secede, the ability of the United States to act as a force for good in the world, etc.

I don’t believe it is clear one way or the other. But if a prudential decision by the political leadership of, for example, Texas, were to decide that the good and evil effects were at least roughly equal, then they would be morally justified in pursuing that course of action.
 
andrewstx said:
What gave you the idea I’m for secession? If texas secceeds from the union I will have to seceed from texas.

Texas is the worst place for the poor and disabled to be, and I am both. If they seceed they will probably take the poor, disabeld. democrats, non tea party republicans, feminists, and homosexuals and men who don’t fit the macho stereotype out to shoot.

Really don’t like texas, parents just put me here and I can’t afford to leave…

I think people un willing or unable to live in a society should maybe go nto individaul desert islands.
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What a terrible thing to say. Wholly untrue, and very inflammatory.

:nope::tsktsk:
 
Why does everybody assume that state secession would lead to greater citizen freedom?

The US Constitution has been the greatest guarantor of human freedom in modern times (with the tragic loopholes of slavery and the Indians). By secession, a state would leave it behind. While many would reproduce it, some would not.

Also, once you had independent nations the size of European countries, you could expect the same intrusiveness by government that you now see in the European countries. The necessary functions of nationhood are more onerously borne by a small population than by a third of a billion people.

The USA has for two generations maintained the world’s premier armed force without a military draft. I am not sure Texas could maintain an adequate defense without one. And I am sure many of the smaller states could not.

Also, when human movement is constrained by flags and visas that weren’t there before, that is necessarily somewhat of a freedom loss.

All in all, I’d say that in terms of human freedom, state secession would be at best a wash. Average citizens in the CSA were no freer than in the USA.

ICXC NIKA
 
I’d love to ask some of these people signing these petitions just what percentage of their state’s revenue do they imagine comes from the federal government from which they want to secede.

If they split off, and Uncle Sam stopped writing those checks, they’d become some of the poorest places in the Western Hemisphere. But good luck with that.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
What a terrible thing to say. Wholly untrue, and very inflammatory.

:nope::tsktsk:
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I am just going by personal observation and experience. From living in this one part pf texas.

I know that west texans at least have no regard for the disabled. They rutinley (sp) park in handicapped spaces with their megatrucks and suvs to save a few steps and no-one does a thing about it.

If my slow self is in the way in the market they practically run me down. But this could be sinful human nature not particular to texas alone.

They probably won’t shoot everyone who does not fit the texas stereotype, but their politics show it, voting for the furthest right tea party member.

I might go on, just suffice it to say as a non tea-party memeber I am becoming more and more afraid to live here.
 
andrewstx said:
I am just going by personal observation and experience. From living in this one part pf texas.

I know that west texans at least have no regard for the disabled. They rutinley (sp) park in handicapped spaces with their megatrucks and suvs to save a few steps and no-one does a thing about it.

If my slow self is in the way in the market they practically run me down. But this could be sinful human nature not particular to texas alone.

They probably won’t shoot everyone who does not fit the texas stereotype, but their politics show it, voting for the furthest right tea party member.

I might go on, just suffice it to say as a non tea-party memeber I am becoming more and more afraid to live here.
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I could say something equally ridiculous, such as that in my Democrat-controlled city, I am becoming more and more afraid to live here, as a non-minority. I see “them” practically running down people of my color on the highways in their Priuses. “They” probably won’t send people like me to FEMA camps, but I am not sure…

:rolleyes:

Come on, snap out of it.
 
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