Seceeding from the Union

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Great to meet you Ridgerunner. I should have known from your name.

The other day I posted a video on the internet. The background behind me was pine trees and hills and I got comments about the “lovely backdrop.” I had to confess it wasn’t a backdrop, it was my backyard and looked exactly the same as every other Missouri hillbilly’s back yard.

Your notes about Missouri civil war history are right on. Missouri was a truly hellish place during the civil war. At least in Georgia, your neighbors were probably on your side.
It really was terrible, both during the war and during Reconstruction afterward. A couple of quick tales:

Near where I live, really close to the Ark border, there was a Unionist miller. Back then, nobody had any cash, so Millers took some of the grain from farmers in payment for milling their grain. They turned that into whiskey, which was used as money at the time and in that place. At a point shortly before the Battle of Wilson’s Creek (“Oak Hills” to a Confederate) the Miller became aware that Sterling Price’s army was headed his way. Fearing that his wealth would be drunk up by the Confederate army, he loaded it all up in wagons and headed for Springfield, which was then in Union hands, to safeguard his “bank account” of whiskey. As soon as he got to Springfield, the Federal soldiers discovered the nature of his cargo and drank it all up. I have often wondered whether the Union soldiers were hung over at Wilson’s Creek, contributing to their stunning loss. Who knows? 🙂

One of my daughters attended law school in Yankeeland. All the students, it seemed, were from the north and east except her. I guess some of her fellow students found her accent and origin interesting and questioned her a lot about local stuff, etc. Once in a group, one of them asked her if the KKK was big in our area during Reconstruction. “Not so much”, she said, “but we did have Baldknobbers”. Jaws dropped. Nobody had ever heard of Baldknobbers, so they demanded full explanation, which she gave, including her description of “Baldknobber attire”. Baldknobbers became an object of short-term fascination, to the degree that some devised Baldknobber costumes for themselves for the student Halloween party.

Not sure what part of Mo you’re from, Reep, but I expect you know about Baldknobbers. Anybody who as ever been to Branson or read “The Shepherd of the Hills”, of course, could not fail to know.
 
I’m a Yankee from California, but have experienced great friendliness in the Southern states I’ve visited: Missouri, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Evansville Indiana!😉

I did drive across the Texas panhandle, once, where my car was attacked by giant tumbleweeds. Didn’t have time to check out the local culture, though.
We train them to do that to Yankee cars.

😃
 
It was an illegal rebellion, but also a successful one.

Not if the seceding states get permission from Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II to rejoin the Empire first. 😃

rossum
Having been to the UK several times, I regret that we ever separated.
 
It really was terrible, both during the war and during Reconstruction afterward. A couple of quick tales:

Near where I live, really close to the Ark border, there was a Unionist miller. Back then, nobody had any cash, so Millers took some of the grain from farmers in payment for milling their grain. They turned that into whiskey, which was used as money at the time and in that place. At a point shortly before the Battle of Wilson’s Creek (“Oak Hills” to a Confederate) the Miller became aware that Sterling Price’s army was headed his way. Fearing that his wealth would be drunk up by the Confederate army, he loaded it all up in wagons and headed for Springfield, which was then in Union hands, to safeguard his “bank account” of whiskey. As soon as he got to Springfield, the Federal soldiers discovered the nature of his cargo and drank it all up. I have often wondered whether the Union soldiers were hung over at Wilson’s Creek, contributing to their stunning loss. Who knows? 🙂

One of my daughters attended law school in Yankeeland. All the students, it seemed, were from the north and east except her. I guess some of her fellow students found her accent and origin interesting and questioned her a lot about local stuff, etc. Once in a group, one of them asked her if the KKK was big in our area during Reconstruction. “Not so much”, she said, “but we did have Baldknobbers”. Jaws dropped. Nobody had ever heard of Baldknobbers, so they demanded full explanation, which she gave, including her description of “Baldknobber attire”. Baldknobbers became an object of short-term fascination, to the degree that some devised Baldknobber costumes for themselves for the student Halloween party.

Not sure what part of Mo you’re from, Reep, but I expect you know about Baldknobbers. Anybody who as ever been to Branson or read “The Shepherd of the Hills”, of course, could not fail to know.
What is a “baldknobber” I have no idea?

I have not seen all of Missouri. mostly staying in St Louis and Kansas City. Those two cities don’t come across as too southern.

I have been to poor tornado-damaged Joplin which seems more southern, and have never been to Branson. I’m not crazy about country music, but it comes across as southern in the media.

Were the Jesse James gang baldknobbers?
 
Sometimes it helps to cut through the baloney and state the question in stark terms. I ask if the pro-Union guys are willing to shoot me in the back as I walk peacefully away. If that is too simplistic, feel free to add relevant facts I may be missing.
If you don’t understand why this is too simplistic, you just don’t get the ideology struggle going on in a Civil War. 🤷

States do not have the right to do whatever they please no matter what the federal government says or does. “Just walking away” is rebellion. As several people pointed out, using that logic if my town wanted to secede from my state that would be a-okay.

Besides, in the original Civil War the Confederacy DID attack first.

“Oh, but Lincoln manipulated them into attacking Sumter!” Maybe so-but there’s an example of a time where, perhaps, it is okay to use potentially lethal force despite not being actively attacked.

The Civil War isn’t as black and white as “We wanted to leave. But you were mean. The end.” If you don’t get that, I don’t know what to tell you.
 
Sometimes I think that a combination of certain contemporary issues might come closer than anything else to driving certain states to try to secede.

For instance, if a bloc of western states had all legalized marijuana for medical and/or recreational use, and were all at loggerheads with the federal government over that; and if, simultaneously, several or all of them were also rejecting the idea of granting “full faith and credit” to other states’ legalization of gay marriage; and if there were also a real conflict within these states over the citizenry wanting to accept funding for “Obamacare,” while these state governments were determined at all costs to avoid it; and maybe a few other things I haven’t thought of—

that might drive a bloc of states to try it.

It probably would be quickly ended by federal troop intervention—UNLESS somebody figured out a leverage point that would pry some key military leaders away from Washington. After all, some of THEM don’t like gay marriage or “Obamacare” and disagree with Washington about marijuana legalization.
 
Sometimes I think that a combination of certain contemporary issues might come closer than anything else to driving certain states to try to secede.

For instance, if a bloc of western states had all legalized marijuana for medical and/or recreational use, and were all at loggerheads with the federal government over that; and if, simultaneously, several or all of them were also rejecting the idea of granting “full faith and credit” to other states’ legalization of gay marriage; and if there were also a real conflict within these states over the citizenry wanting to accept funding for “Obamacare,” while these state governments were determined at all costs to avoid it; and maybe a few other things I haven’t thought of—

that might drive a bloc of states to try it.

It probably would be quickly ended by federal troop intervention—UNLESS somebody figured out a leverage point that would pry some key military leaders away from Washington. After all, some of THEM don’t like gay marriage or “Obamacare” and disagree with Washington about marijuana legalization.
Anybody who thinks marijuana, or gay marriage, or even “Obamacare” is worth shattering a powerful nation and almost certain civil war needs their head examined. And if they are in positions of authority, they should be impeached.

At least with slavery there were serious issues at stake: the South wanted to protect their economic structure and feared what abolition would do to their society. Getting high, homosexual “love” or disagreement over health care funding don’t even come close.

ICXC NIKA
 
Anybody who thinks marijuana, or gay marriage, or even “Obamacare” is worth shattering a powerful nation and almost certain civil war needs their head examined. And if they are in positions of authority, they should be impeached.

At least with slavery there were serious issues at stake: the South wanted to protect their economic structure and feared what abolition would do to their society. Getting high, homosexual “love” or disagreement over health care funding don’t even come close.

ICXC NIKA
I totally agree, GEddie. Just sayin’…there COULD BE state leaders that “need their heads examined,” as you put it. It wouldn’t surprise me.
 
What is a “baldknobber” I have no idea?

I have not seen all of Missouri. mostly staying in St Louis and Kansas City. Those two cities don’t come across as too southern.

I have been to poor tornado-damaged Joplin which seems more southern, and have never been to Branson. I’m not crazy about country music, but it comes across as southern in the media.

Were the Jesse James gang baldknobbers?
During and after the Civil War, there were all kinds of guerillas roaming the state. Some were unionist, some were confederate, some were just criminals. Some were a blend. Initially, Baldknobbers began in Taney County (where Branson is) as a sort of semi-unionist group to combat confederate partisans. But the notion spread to other counties in S.W. Mo and became more a vigilante outfit. In parts of SW Mo, there are “bald knobs”, which are high hills with no trees at the heights. Pretty good places for bands to meet, as they could see in all directions and their signals could be seen for long distances. Some of the Baldknobbers turned to criminality, some didn’t. Their characteristic forays were at night, and mounted. They wore whole-head masks, often with horns on either side of the head and fancifully decorated. Baldknobbers are treated anything but sympathetically in Harold Bell Wright’s novel “The Shepherd of the Hills”. In Branson there is an outdoor theater where parts of that novel are re-enacted, including a mounted Baldknobber raid. Thousands upon thousands of people attend that every year.

Eventually, they died out as the country gradually pacified and regular law and order was established. But they are part of the history and have never been forgotten.

The James gang people were not Baldknobbers. The James gang was a remnant of confederate irregulars initially from farther north in Mo, that fought during the war, then turned into a kind of guerilla group after the war, raiding unionist sympathizers and organizations and dishing out rough “justice”. They initially gave a lot of their plunder to confederate sympathizers who, at the time, were under very major oppression by occupying Union troops and agents. As a result, they were aided and hidden by the local populace. Eventually, they were pretty much just robbers, but they are still regarded sympathetically in much of the state.

KC and St. Louis are definitely not “southern” cities, though St. Louis still has some of the trappings of its formerly river-southern days and ways. But the accent is its own. KC is “western” in the way that, say, Denver is “western”. Somewhat entertainingly, the major elite social event of the year in KC is the “American Royal”, which is just a big, luxurious cattle and horse show with all sorts of social events connected to it. To my ear, anyway, people in KC have no accent at all, though it may seem so to others.

The “southern” part of Mo begins in the Missouri Valley (sometimes referred to as “Little Dixie”), picks up again along the Mississippi Valley somewhat south of St. Louis, and includes most of the state south of I-70. SE Mo is “Delta country”, very “deep south” southern. South Central and SW Mo are more “southern piedmont”, like southern Appalachia. The Ozarks in the SW sort of blend into the southern plains to the west, and the culture becomes more and more “southern plains” like Oklahoma and North Texas, so the prevailing accent in Joplin, for instance, is closer to that of Tulsa than it is to that of, say, Springfield, (which is more “hill”) even though they’re not far distant from each other. There are a lot of accents, and one can find different accents in towns not ten miles apart. But all local accents are either “hill” (akin to southern Appalachia), “southern”, “southwestern” or a blend of them.

Branson is not just hillbilly music. There are also “Vegas-type” (but highly sanitized) shows there as well. Nationally-known entertainers have their own theaters there, which is a good deal for them because they get to keep the profits themselves. In Silver Dollar City, there are shops with every kind of archaic craft one would ever want to see, from real blacksmithing to intricate quilting to very serious woodworking. Those people are very highly skilled at what they do. Branson is quite entertaining, almost no matter what one’s taste is. (No, I’m not trying to sell you, just explaining)

One very peculiar thing about Mo is the number of German places spotted here and there. St. Louis metro area (not so much the city itself anymore) is full of people of German descent. Along the Missouri river in the east, there are a few towns like Hermann, that are like the Rhineland, including high quality vineyards and winemaking in the German style. Fall is the best time to go to Hermann. Those places, of course, are not southern in any way. If you are in the St. Louis area, Hermann is not very far away.
 
Having been to the UK several times, I regret that we ever separated.
:D:thumbsup: The UK is my most favorite place to visit in the world! For some reason I feel happy and safe there. We have visited there 7 times in the last 5 years and I’m planning my next escape!!
 
I’m interested in reading your opinions, moral analysis I mean, on secession, as a solution/response to the crisis in the United States (its societal evils , economic failing, political attacks on religious freedom, and militarism).

Is this incompatible with the principle that we are, in general, to obey government authorities?
States may of course petition peacefully for the right to secede and, if granted, do so without offending against the natural law. Violent secession a la the Civil War on the other hand is another matter entirely. In that case the demands of just war theory must be met. There must, among other things, be a reasonable probability of success in the effort to secede, a severely grave reason for doing so, and all other efforts to remedy the problem must be exhausted.

Now as it happens I think abortion counts as a very grave reason, and it’s clear all efforts to remedy it have failed. The only thing anyone is missing today is a reasonable probability of success. That and the fact that the people who want to secede obviously don’t care about abortion, just money.
 
I was reminded of a joke attributed to General Philip Sheridan about the Lone Star State_- “if i had a choice between Texas and Hell, I’d rent out Texas and live in Hell!”

Terry
 
States may of course petition peacefully for the right to secede and, if granted, do so without offending against the natural law.
Where can this procedure be found and exactly who is it that would grant the right to disassociate from the rest? I wonder if this procedure would be any more effective than a slave “petitioning” his owner for freedom.

Do you think that such a right ought to belong to the people in the seceding area or to other people who do not live there (but who may have sufficient military power to prevent the area from leaving)?
 
Where can this procedure be found and exactly who is it that would grant the right to disassociate from the rest? I wonder if this procedure would be any more effective than a slave “petitioning” his owner for freedom.

Do you think that such a right ought to belong to the people in the seceding area or to other people who do not live there (but who may have sufficient military power to prevent the area from leaving)?
I’m talking in broad moral terms, not pointing to any specific procedure currently in place.
 
:D:thumbsup: The UK is my most favorite place to visit in the world! For some reason I feel happy and safe there. We have visited there 7 times in the last 5 years and I’m planning my next escape!!
Key word: “visit.”

😉
 
I’m interested in reading your opinions, moral analysis I mean, on secession, as a solution/response to the crisis in the United States (its societal evils , economic failing, political attacks on religious freedom, and militarism).

Is this incompatible with the principle that we are, in general, to obey government authorities?
I’m for it. I would love to be ;part of a group of people who bought all the land in a state or city and were willing to pay user fees when leaving the area (driving on roads outside the area for example). I’m for it…but the feds won’t let it happen because they insist on controlling everyone and sucking their pockets dry with taxes, fees, and inflation (the worst tax of all).

God Bless,
Bill
 
I was reminded of a joke attributed to General Philip Sheridan about the Lone Star State_- “if i had a choice between Texas and Hell, I’d rent out Texas and live in Hell!”

Terry
Hell may be cooler, lol. Just today Nov 30, the high was 81 degrees and ran the car a/c and the windows are open in the house.
We are bombarded with house flies because there has been no freeze.

And some texans still poo poo global warming, even after super storm Sandy.
 
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