Seceeding from the Union

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If a region secedes peacefully, then I see no problem.
If, however, war is needed for the secession to successfully occur, then (in my opinion) it’s only moral if certain conditions are met:
  1. The region is not given political representation
  2. The region is treated significantly worse than the rest of the country
  3. It is being oppressed in some way (unfair trials, no free speech, etc.)
At present, I don’t think any region of America meets those standards, and so I don’t think violent secession is moral in the US (and of course, it’s not possible; this is a hypothetical).
 
If a region secedes peacefully, then I see no problem.
If, however, war is needed for the secession to successfully occur, then (in my opinion) it’s only moral if certain conditions are met:
  1. The region is not given political representation
  2. The region is treated significantly worse than the rest of the country
  3. It is being oppressed in some way (unfair trials, no free speech, etc.)
At present, I don’t think any region of America meets those standards, and so I don’t think violent secession is moral in the US (and of course, it’s not possible; this is a hypothetical).
Interesting. I was thinking of hypothetical non-violent secession of a geographical area. I would have no problem living in such area and think the US gov’t should ignore that area (except for should any threats arise from the area) and charge user fees to people crossing over (or they could simply sell the area for 20 bucks and some sea shells or something and then treat it as they do Canada.

God Bless,
Bill
 
And some texans still poo poo global warming, even after super storm Sandy.
:rolleyes: Maybe because we still don’t know to what degree global warming actually affects the world. We aren’t even technologically capable of determining that at this point.
 
Where can this procedure be found and exactly who is it that would grant the right to disassociate from the rest? I wonder if this procedure would be any more effective than a slave “petitioning” his owner for freedom.

Do you think that such a right ought to belong to the people in the seceding area or to other people who do not live there (but who may have sufficient military power to prevent the area from leaving)?
In Canada, it is accepted here that if in a referendum more than 50% of voters in Quebec chose to leave, then in principle they would have formally and lawfully seceded from Confederation, or at least started an obligatory process such that it would be necessarily a matter of negotiating the best possible relationship thereafter to the rest of Canada. No war necessary.

The benefit of this is that it absolutely precludes anything like an armed rebellion because it can’t possibly be jusified. It also reinforces, IMO, the principle of subsidiarity, since the Federal government naturally does not want to provoke a province (Canada’s equivalent to an American state) into considering secession or aggravate the population to such a point that it facilitates popular demand for such a thing.
 
I haven’t read all the comments, so not wanting to be repetitive, I believe this country was founded on believe in God and asking for his guidance. We have become a secular, selfish nation, not what the founding fathers had in mind. Maybe we need a good old fashion kick in the butt to get us back on track. My father was always good at this, Maybe this is what God has in mind. This country is not in need of a civil war but a return to God.
 
Got an email today asking me to sign an anti-seceding petition for Texas – they want to get as many signatures as the seceding petition has, … just in case 🙂
 
The American Revolution would be an example of your second justification.

It is very hard to justify why any people should be ruled over by another; for example, if the former Confederate States of America (or the people of California or any other state) no longer wish to be politically joined with the rest of the United States, what moral principle prevents them from leaving peacefully?
I think you touched upon the legal remedy available. If one doesn’t want to be a part of the United States, they are free as individuals to leave.
 
Hell may be cooler, lol.
Actually, where I am, we are almost always hotter than Hell!!!

(Hell, Michigan, that is)🙂
Just today Nov 30, the high was 81 degrees and ran the car a/c and the windows are open in the house.
We are bombarded with house flies because there has been no freeze.
And some texans still poo poo global warming, even after super storm Sandy.
Yeah right. Like there were no severe hurricanes before the Industrial Revolution?

They just didn’t have names.

Blessed Advent, ICXC NIKA
 
Actually, where I am, we are almost always hotter than Hell!!!

(Hell, Michigan, that is)🙂

Yeah right. Like there were no severe hurricanes before the Industrial Revolution?

They just didn’t have names.

Blessed Advent, ICXC NIKA
I think as long as there is a penny to be made in the ahl biz (oil busiseness) a lot of Texans will deny global warning.
 
I’m interested in reading your opinions, moral analysis I mean, on secession, as a solution/response to the crisis in the United States (its societal evils , economic failing, political attacks on religious freedom, and militarism).

Is this incompatible with the principle that we are, in general, to obey government authorities?
A few years back, a screen writer asked Justice Scalia for help understanding the legal issues for play he was writing in which a state decides to secede. Here was Scalia’s reply:

I am afraid I cannot be of much help with your problem, principally because I cannot imagine that such a question could ever reach the Supreme Court. To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.”) Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit.

Here is a link to a photo of the purported letter.

theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Scalia-Turkewitz-Letter-763174.jpg
 
To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede.
The good justice might as well have declared a circle to be square.

No legal or moral issue can be resolved on the battlefield. Even if documents are ultimately signed that purport to resolve a legal issue, those documents are: 1) clearly signed under duress; and 2) could not bind those who were not even born when they were signed.
 
The good justice might as well have declared a circle to be square.

No legal or moral issue can be resolved on the battlefield. Even if documents are ultimately signed that purport to resolve a legal issue, those documents 2) could not bind those who were not even born when they were signed.
Since when has this been true? There are many treaties which bind us, and which precede us as individuals. For example, I am bound legally by the Geneva Conventions.
 
The good justice might as well have declared a circle to be square.

No legal or moral issue can be resolved on the battlefield. Even if documents are ultimately signed that purport to resolve a legal issue, those documents are: 1) clearly signed under duress; and 2) could not bind those who were not even born when they were signed.
Texas v. White was argued before the United States Supreme Court during the December 1868 term. Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase read the Court’s decision, on April 15, 1869. Australian Professors Peter Radan and Aleksandar Pavkovic write:

Chase, [Chief Justice], ruled in favor of Texas on the ground that the Confederate state government in Texas had no legal existence on the basis that the secession of Texas from the United States was illegal. The critical finding underpinning the ruling that Texas could not secede from the United States was that, following its admission to the United States in 1845, Texas had become part of “an indestructible Union, composed of indestructible states.” In practical terms, this meant that Texas has never seceded from the United States.
However, the Court’s decision recognized some possibility of the divisibility “through revolution, or through consent of the States”.

In 1877, the Williams v. Bruffy decision was rendered, pertaining to civil war debts. The Court wrote regarding acts establishing an independent government that “The validity of its acts, both against the parent state and the citizens or subjects thereof, depends entirely upon its ultimate success; if it fail to establish itself permanently, all such acts perish with it; if it succeed and become recognized, its acts from the commencement of its existence are upheld as those of an independent nation.”

Historian Kenneth Stampp notes that a historical case against secession had been made that argued that “the Union is older than the states” and that “the provision for a perpetual Union in the Articles of Confederation” was carried over into the Constitution by the “reminder that the preamble to the new Constitution gives us one of its purposes the formation of ‘a more perfect Union’.”

Concerning the White decision Stampp wrote:

In 1869, when the Supreme Court, in Texas v. White, finally rejected as untenable the case for a constitutional right of secession, it stressed this historical argument. The Union, the Court said, “never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation.” Rather, “It began among the Colonies. …It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form, and character, and sanction from the Articles of Confederation.”
 
Since when has this been true? There are many treaties which bind us, and which precede us as individuals. For example, I am bound legally by the Geneva Conventions.
Considering the nature of this thread, I do not think we can assume a social contract that forces you and I to live as our great-grand-dads agreed that we must. I know many people accept this unthinkingly, but it is not self-proving.

Even the Church recognizes a right of rebellion against an unjust ruler as well as the right to change the forms of government. I happen to favor less aggressive forms myself.
 
Considering the nature of this thread, I do not think we can assume a social contract that forces you and I to live as our great-grand-dads agreed that we must. I know many people accept this unthinkingly, but it is not self-proving.

Even the Church recognizes a right of rebellion against an unjust ruler as well as the right to change the forms of government. I happen to favor less aggressive forms myself.
Secession is a legal issue, which has nothing to do with any church or religious dogma. The courts have decided the legal issue, that the US is a federation, and not a confederacy.
 
Texas v. White . . . . Texas had no legal existence on the basis that the secession of Texas from the United States was illegal.
. . . .
Williams v. Bruffy : "The validity of its acts, both against the parent state and the citizens or subjects thereof, depends entirely upon its ultimate success
Supreme court decisions–decided after the south surrendered–are not what settled the matter. The court was just tying up loose ends, dealing with the result, while honoring the tradition that the victor gets to write the history.

Odd that you would quote two cases that seem to rest on different grounds. One says the secession was flat-out illegal and the other says it depended on the outcome of the war (sort of a "might makes legal’ argument).

I think that when secession comes–as it eventually will–it will not likely be decided by the supreme court. A state or region may simply walk away and it will be for those who remain to decide whether they have the stomach to go to war over it. It may depend on whether the president is a “Lincoln” or a Gorbachev."
 
Supreme court decisions–decided after the south surrendered–are not what settled the matter. The court was just tying up loose ends, dealing with the result, while honoring the tradition that the victor gets to write the history.

Odd that you would quote two cases that seem to rest on different grounds. One says the secession was flat-out illegal and the other says it depended on the outcome of the war (sort of a "might makes legal’ argument).

I think that when secession comes–as it eventually will–it will not likely be decided by the supreme court. A state or region may simply walk away and it will be for those who remain to decide whether they have the stomach to go to war over it. It may depend on whether the president is a “Lincoln” or a Gorbachev."
As a practical matter, the red states are on the public dole with the federal government. With the notable exception of Texas, most of the red states receive federal money far in excess of the revenues they pay into the federal government. In some case, federal spending amounts to more than 200 percent of what the state’s “natural” GDP would be. This is the supreme irony of the red call for smaller government. It is the red states, mostly, who rely on federal pork belly programs.

I think that once people figure out the finances, and realize that a union of blue states would have a balanced federal budget,while a union of red states would have severe cuts in social security, Medicare, defense spending, farm subsidies, etc., and still struggle with their federal budget… No, I seriously doubt that any red states will go off of the dole and leave the Union. Life might be easier for the blue states, if they did leave, though.
 
Considering the nature of this thread, I do not think we can assume a social contract that forces you and I to live as our great-grand-dads agreed that we must. I know many people accept this unthinkingly, but it is not self-proving.

Even the Church recognizes a right of rebellion against an unjust ruler as well as the right to change the forms of government. I happen to favor less aggressive forms myself.
Social contract? I don’t ever remember agreeing to be ruled by any temporal powers.
 
As a practical matter, the red states are on the public dole with the federal government. With the notable exception of Texas, most of the red states receive federal money far in excess of the revenues they pay into the federal government. In some case, federal spending amounts to more than 200 percent of what the state’s “natural” GDP would be. This is the supreme irony of the red call for smaller government. It is the red states, mostly, who rely on federal pork belly programs.

I think that once people figure out the finances, and realize that a union of blue states would have a balanced federal budget,while a union of red states would have severe cuts in social security, Medicare, defense spending, farm subsidies, etc., and still struggle with their federal budget… No, I seriously doubt that any red states will go off of the dole and leave the Union. Life might be easier for the blue states, if they did leave, though.
I’d be much happier with a government that doesn’t have social security, medicare, defense spending, or farm subsidies. If only personal secession was allowed.
 
I’d be much happier with a government that doesn’t have social security, medicare, defense spending, or farm subsidies. If only personal secession was allowed.
It is, in the sense that you can go off the grid, and be self sufficient. You could engage in barter, self reliant agriculture, and so on, and avoid most taxation.
 
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