Seceeding from the Union

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I’d be much happier with a government that doesn’t have social security, medicare, defense spending, or farm subsidies. If only personal secession was allowed.
Every society has to spend on its defense, else it will be subsumed into a more aggressive society that will then spend on its war efforts.

Social security is a form of societal defense: it prevents the poor from sinking so far that they become a revolutionary mob.

And personal secession does exist; it’s called emigration. But another nation has to take you in; human beings have to live somewhere.

ICXC NIKA
 
Social contract? I don’t ever remember agreeing to be ruled by any temporal powers.
Just by breathing, you agree to be ruled by the society whose square mileage your feet are standing on. If you cannot abide that society, it falls to you to use your feet to exit that society and seek a new one.

But you have to submit to some temporal power, as there is nowhere on the planet that some sovereignty does not exist.

ICXC NIKA
 
Just by breathing, you agree to be ruled by the society whose square mileage your feet are standing on. If you cannot abide that society, it falls to you to use your feet to exit that society and seek a new one.

But you have to submit to some temporal power, as there is nowhere on the planet that some sovereignty does not exist.

ICXC NIKA
We’ve created a monster. Governments proliferate. Just like government agencies and departments. The problems are many but I’ll try to list a few:

-politicians aren’t in the game if they aren’t elected/re-elected
-they can’t get elected/re-elected without a lot of financial support
-constituents, lobbyists and special interest groups provide the financial support
(for an undisclosed fee)
-they can’t get elected raising taxes or cutting spending
-if we don’t raise taxes or cut spending we are dangerously dilluting our wealth
-politicians won’t do anything until the pain of doing something exceeds the pain of doing nothing

Solutions? …campaign reform, transparency, term limits…

A well informed and educated voting public. (Most important and least encouraged.)

Educate, evangelize, enlighten…

Or, finally, secede…
 
We’ve created a monster. Governments proliferate. Just like government agencies and departments. The problems are many but I’ll try to list a few:

-politicians aren’t in the game if they aren’t elected/re-elected
-they can’t get elected/re-elected without a lot of financial support
-constituents, lobbyists and special interest groups provide the financial support
(for an undisclosed fee)
-they can’t get elected raising taxes or cutting spending
-if we don’t raise taxes or cut spending we are dangerously dilluting our wealth
-politicians won’t do anything until the pain of doing nothing exceeds the pain of doing something

Solutions? …campaign reform, transparency, term limits…

A well informed and educated voting public. (Most important and least encouraged.)

Educate, evangelize, enlighten…

Or, finally, secede…
 
I wonder…if some people got their way, and all the red states seceded, would that be the end of opposition to blue states? Or would some of them start scheming military aggression against geographically isolated blue states like New Mexico and Colorado?

Just something to think about. I don’t think for a minute politics and power-grabbing would end the day after secession, even if it were allowed.
 
If something isn’t done about the debt, the union is going to secede from us. If that happens, the amount of casualties that were seen in the War between the States is going to be a drop in the bucket.
Its all going to be ok. Obama is going to raise OUR taxes and pay off the national debt.

Thats sarcasm by the way…
 
Its all going to be ok. Obama is going to raise OUR taxes and pay off the national debt.

Thats sarcasm by the way…
What if we identified all the wasteful spending we do (I mean like if we were really poor or broke, oh yeah, that’s right, we are). For example if I want to take my wife and kids to a Cowboys game and sit in good seats and I don’t have any freebies (which there must be a lot of tickets bought and given away or passed around because I just can’t imagine people doing this)… this what? Oh yeah… maybe it would cost about $5000 for the four of us… stupid… (I’ve checked with various ticket agencies)

Elective/cosmetic surgery, pedicures, manicures, drugs, alcohol… we could go on forever… how about if we all turned off our air conditioners in July and did something useful with all that money…

Someday we’ll look back and realize how irresponsible we are (speaking in general as a society, not picking on anyone)… People are starving, haven’t got clean running water or hot water and we spend $5000 on a football game… entertainmnet, leisure, recreation…

We could fix this. It is doable. But we need to wrap our hearts, minds and souls around it, together…

***We need to tune in to the Holy Spirit, turn on to Jesus Christ and drop out of the culture of death… ***
 
What if we identified all the wasteful spending we do (I mean like if we were really poor or broke, oh yeah, that’s right, we are). For example if I want to take my wife and kids to a Cowboys game and sit in good seats and I don’t have any freebies (which there must be a lot of tickets bought and given away or passed around because I just can’t imagine people doing this)… this what? Oh yeah… maybe it would cost about $5000 for the four of us… stupid… (I’ve checked with various ticket agencies)

Elective/cosmetic surgery, pedicures, manicures, drugs, alcohol… we could go on forever… how about if we all turned off our air conditioners in July and did something useful with all that money…

Someday we’ll look back and realize how irresponsible we are (speaking in general as a society, not picking on anyone)… People are starving, haven’t got clean running water or hot water and we spend $5000 on a football game… entertainmnet, leisure, recreation…

We could fix this. It is doable. But we need to wrap our hearts, minds and souls around it, together…

***We need to tune in to the Holy Spirit, turn on to Jesus Christ and drop out of the culture of death… ***
I agree with you 100% (not just because you mentioned the Cowboys) 😃
 
What if we identified all the wasteful spending we do (I mean like if we were really poor or broke, oh yeah, that’s right, we are). For example if I want to take my wife and kids to a Cowboys game and sit in good seats and I don’t have any freebies (which there must be a lot of tickets bought and given away or passed around because I just can’t imagine people doing this)… this what? Oh yeah… maybe it would cost about $5000 for the four of us… stupid… (I’ve checked with various ticket agencies)

Elective/cosmetic surgery, pedicures, manicures, drugs, alcohol… we could go on forever… how about if we all turned off our air conditioners in July and did something useful with all that money…

Someday we’ll look back and realize how irresponsible we are (speaking in general as a society, not picking on anyone)… People are starving, haven’t got clean running water or hot water and we spend $5000 on a football game… entertainmnet, leisure, recreation…

We could fix this. It is doable. But we need to wrap our hearts, minds and souls around it, together…

***We need to tune in to the Holy Spirit, turn on to Jesus Christ and drop out of the culture of death… ***
Think of the implications of Texas seceding, the Cowboys would no longer be "America’s Team ". Or perhaps the notion of seceding means they already are not that anyway.
 
I wonder…if some people got their way, and all the red states seceded, would that be the end of opposition to blue states? Or would some of them start scheming military aggression against geographically isolated blue states like New Mexico and Colorado?

Just something to think about. I don’t think for a minute politics and power-grabbing would end the day after secession, even if it were allowed.
If my fellow MIssourians were inclined to leave, I think it might come with a healthy dose of “leave us in peace.” Amicable agreements among states may be very possible; agreements pertaining to free travel, free trade and dispute resolution.

Assuming that “politics and power grabbing” must rule the day seems wrong when you consider that Americans have annexed neither Mexico, nor Canada. Heaven knows we could if we wanted to.

One of the reasons for secession would be to escape involvement in the U.S. military empire. Some of us are weary of paying to kill foreigners. So the idea of leaving other nations/states alone and spending only enough for pure defense (and not a penny for aggressing against others) is very, very appealing.
 
If my fellow MIssourians were inclined to leave, I think it might come with a healthy dose of “leave us in peace.” Amicable agreements among states may be very possible; agreements pertaining to free travel, free trade and dispute resolution.

Assuming that “politics and power grabbing” must rule the day seems wrong when you consider that Americans have annexed neither Mexico, nor Canada. Heaven knows we could if we wanted to.

One of the reasons for secession would be to escape involvement in the U.S. military empire. Some of us are weary of paying to kill foreigners. So the idea of leaving other nations/states alone and spending only enough for pure defense (and not a penny for aggressing against others) is very, very appealing.
Good luck, mon ami.

Methinks that the US would never let Mo go, if for no other reason, than not wanting flags and visas obstructing land transit from DC to Cal. You guys are too central to just flake off the main body.

Texas would not be much better off in that respect.

ICXC NIKA
 
This is a practical and peaceful solution.

No lobbyists.

No bought and paid for, I’ll pay for your campaign in exchange for your promise to do X, Y and Z.

No Wall Street. Divest all stocks and other securities and put them into the State bank so companies don’t run on debt but liquid assets.

Free trade and transit agreements. Keep suppliers and businesses doing business as usual.

The right to volunteer to fight for the former US. I am against war by the way, but we do have a few seriously bad and unstable people out there who are gaining the technology to reach out and blow up someone.

A live within your means State budget.

Transparency so that the public can see where their money is going.

A State bank that can also issue a State scrip. Oh sure, we’ll accept Federal Reserve Notes, but within the State/Country, we will not be obligated to pay the Federal Reserve anything.

No Supreme Court, but a State court that borrows the best of what the US has to offer and discards the robed dictators.

Peace,
Ed
 
It is, in the sense that you can go off the grid, and be self sufficient. You could engage in barter, self reliant agriculture, and so on, and avoid most taxation.
But then I would divest myself of all of the benefits of modern economies. Indirect exchange and the division of labor are great. It’s the problems of government manipulation of modern economies that I object to. Individual secession seems like a horrible choice.
 
Just by breathing, you agree to be ruled by the society whose square mileage your feet are standing on. If you cannot abide that society, it falls to you to use your feet to exit that society and seek a new one.

But you have to submit to some temporal power, as there is nowhere on the planet that some sovereignty does not exist.

ICXC NIKA
The government is not society.
 
Every society has to spend on its defense, else it will be subsumed into a more aggressive society that will then spend on its war efforts.
I want to be able to choose to decide how much to spend on defense. I don’t want to be forced to spend amounts determined by people I have no relation to.
Social security is a form of societal defense: it prevents the poor from sinking so far that they become a revolutionary mob.
The US had revolutionary mobs before SS? 😉
And personal secession does exist; it’s called emigration. But another nation has to take you in; human beings have to live somewhere.
But where does it say that we must be ruled by governments?
 
No Wall Street. Divest all stocks and other securities and put them into the State bank so companies don’t run on debt but liquid assets.
Then how will companies raise capital and what would prevent the state bank from inflating and financing deficit spending by the states?
 
I want to be able to choose to decide how much to spend on defense. I don’t want to be forced to spend amounts determined by people I have no relation to.
Any modern society will have that. The only alternative is a tribe so small as to have direct democracy. And such would be at once subsumed into a larger system.
The US had revolutionary mobs before SS? 😉
Sure, in 1775 (but that was not poverty driven).

Our leaders saw what poverty-driven mobs were capable of in other places (Germany, Russia) and in history (French Revolution), and decided to invest in some societal insurance.
But where does it say that we must be ruled by governments?
What we know as government is just the current phase of human cultural development. We are in essence stuck with it.

ICXC NIKA
 
In effect, they are the same. Societies form governments to maintain a base level of stability.
That’s not true at all. Anthropologists have thoroughly debunked any idea that governments are formed through some sort of social contract. In fact, the real basis of governments are marauding gangs of thugs going by robbing the people. They eventually came up with taxation and defense to perpetuate the system.
In most instances, “socially acceptable” and “legal” are nearly the same.
ICXC NIKA
I find the government making law many things that are abhorrent, such as fractional reserve banking, abortion, taxation, etc.
 
Any modern society will have that. The only alternative is a tribe so small as to have direct democracy. And such would be at once subsumed into a larger system.
Why can’t we choose our governments? Why does government in essence own our property?
Sure, in 1775 (but that was not poverty driven).
Our leaders saw what poverty-driven mobs were capable of in other places (Germany, Russia) and in history (French Revolution), and decided to invest in some societal insurance.
One could argue that those revolts were due to corruption of governments and not poverty. Besides, SS was instituted as an income tax, for proof, see how well funded the system is.
What we know as government is just the current phase of human cultural development. We are in essence stuck with it.
ICXC NIKA
Modern nation states have became far more authoritarian. This trend needs to be reversed and we should go back to subsidiarity.
 
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