Second baptism in the spirit

[Anglewannabe]

I was at a prayer meeting and they were talking about a second baptism. I have never heard of such a thing. They said it is NOT a sacrament but only a priest can do it. They even said their work is encouraged by the Vatican. Has anyone ever heard of this? Can someone explain it to me?

 

[guanophore]

I was at a prayer meeting and they were talking about a second baptism. I have never heard of such a thing. They said it is NOT a sacrament but only a priest can do it. They even said their work is encouraged by the Vatican. Has anyone ever heard of this? Can someone explain it to me?

There is only one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and most Catholics receive it as infants. Baptism, in the Greek, means to dip or to immerse. When we are immersed in the Holy Spirit it is sometimes called baptism.

Here are some links that might help:

youtube.com/watch?v=J-QDOcDGDWA

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2015/july/documents/papa-francesco_20150703_movimento-rinnovamento-spirito.html

ccrno.org/WhatisBaptism.php

miamiccr.com/baptism-in-the-holy-spirit.html

ccro-msp.org/baptism-in-the-spirit/

 

[Dorothy]

I was at a prayer meeting and they were talking about a second baptism. I have never heard of such a thing. They said it is NOT a sacrament but only a priest can do it. They even said their work is encouraged by the Vatican. Has anyone ever heard of this? Can someone explain it to me?

They may have articulated that wrongly, or you may have perceived it wrongly. That’s understandable.

True, it is not a sacrament, but one can be “immersed in the Holy Spirit” when in deep prayer.

True that the Vatican has not condemned charismatic prayer groups.

Maybe when they said “only a priest can do it”, they mean when a priest prays over someone with the laying on of hands on their head, and he has a particular charismatic gift, they may be blessed in a special way.

Hopefully I offered a bit of insight.

 

[grannymh]

I was at a prayer meeting and they were talking about a second baptism. I have never heard of such a thing. They said it is NOT a sacrament but only a priest can do it. They even said their work is encouraged by the Vatican. Has anyone ever heard of this? Can someone explain it to me?

In addition to the good posts above, I have some questions.

There are different kinds of prayer meetings.

Please, what kind of a prayer meeting were you attending?
Was it part of a Catholic parish?
You mentioned “their work.” What is their work?
Were you a guest at this prayer meeting?

Thank you.

 

[Casilda]

I was at a prayer meeting and they were talking about a second baptism. I have never heard of such a thing. They said it is NOT a sacrament but only a priest can do it. They even said their work is encouraged by the Vatican. Has anyone ever heard of this? Can someone explain it to me?

Here is an instance in the Bible that explains why a priest must do it. The Apostle Philip was preaching the gospel of Christ in Samaria. Then the Apostles Peter and John came down from Jerusalem and prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit, and laid their hands on the people. The man named Simon (Magus) tried to pay the Apostles to give him this ‘power’ and Peter chastises him.

Acts 8:4-25
Philip Preaches in Samaria

"4 Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word. 5 Philip went down to a city of Samar′ia, and proclaimed to them the Christ. 6 And the multitudes with one accord gave heed to what was said by Philip, when they heard him and saw the signs which he did. 7 For unclean spirits came out of many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice; and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. 8 So there was much joy in that city.

9 But there was a man named Simon who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the nation of Samar′ia, saying that he himself was somebody great. 10 They all gave heed to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is that power of God which is called Great.” 11 And they gave heed to him, because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samar′ia had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; 16 for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

25 Now when they had testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans."

In 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 it lists nine gifts associated with the Holy Spirit.

“4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he will.”

The sacrament of confirmation is the laying on of hands by priest or bishop, annointing with chrism to the same effect.
catholic.org/prayers/sacrament.php?id=3

 

[SnoopSword]

I was at a prayer meeting and they were talking about a second baptism. I have never heard of such a thing. They said it is NOT a sacrament but only a priest can do it. They even said their work is encouraged by the Vatican. Has anyone ever heard of this? Can someone explain it to me?

Wow i can’t believe this is in the Church now.

A second baptism in the Holy Spirit is possibly a VERY serious mortal sin against the Holy Spirit as it demonstrates that you did not place trust in The Holy Spirit in your first baptism. You can look this up.

I realize things are at new levels of heresy worldwide due to these sheep-stealing wolves called Pentecostals or Charasmatics where they are clearly under curses and spiritual abuse is running rampant to the degree its a psuedo-Christianity.

But the church should not be quick to take on their ways. Wording is extremely important.

The most prideful thing a Christian can do is think they are a special an elite class of Christian because they speak tongues. They trick themselves through carnal means to prive their salvation rather than the traditional ways of the church.

 

[Casilda]

Wow i can’t believe this is in the Church now.

A second baptism in the Holy Spirit is possibly a VERY serious mortal sin against the Holy Spirit as it demonstrates that you did not place trust in The Holy Spirit in your first baptism. You can look this up…
But the church should not be quick to take on their ways.** Wording is extremely important.**…

You are correct! Western Catholics are ripe to accept this heresy (2nd baptism) since they disconnect the sacraments of initiation into three distinct occasions, water baptism at infancy, first Eucharist at 7 and confirmation in the teen ages. Eastern Catholics confer all three at infancy (though the Maronite withhold first Eucharist until 7 as the Roman Catholics). An Anglican-rite Catholic parish locally has reinstated confirmation with water baptism for infants.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a2.htm

 

[grannymh]

I was at a prayer meeting and they were talking about a second baptism. I have never heard of such a thing. They said it is NOT a sacrament but only a priest can do it. They even said their work is encouraged by the Vatican. Has anyone ever heard of this? Can someone explain it to me?

There are many kinds of prayer meetings which take place in a variety of Christian faiths.

Too often, people fail to recognize that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is unique. Thus, they fail to learn the truth about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Obviously, if one is going to bash the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, common sense should say that first one needs to understand it.

Anglewannabe
Please correct me if I am wrong. It sounds as if you were a guest or maybe a new member at this prayer meeting. Was this group a recognized part of a Catholic parish and the Catholic diocese? There is a comment about their work. What is their work?

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal goes back to Pentecost and the teachings of St. Paul. While there are many ways to describe the term *Baptism *of the Holy Spirit which takes place in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, basically it involves one’s commitment to Jesus as Lord. It is a religious or prayer experience, often described as a release of the graces in the Sacrament of Baptism. The Sacrament of Baptism is received once. However, we should continually ask the Holy Spirit for those sacramental graces which help us in our daily lives.

Please note that the Catholic Charismatic term *Baptism *does not refer to receiving *the Sacrament. *It refers to asking the Holy Spirit to renew the sacramental graces in our own individual life. The issue of a second Sacrament was put to rest during the early years of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. It was obvious then, and it should be obvious now, that there was no attempt to repeat the actual Sacrament. Renewal means Renewal. We need to remember and go back to the amazing gift of Sanctifying Grace which is received in the Sacrament of Baptism

The link below has plenty of information.

Please, it is important for me to know what kind of prayer meeting you attended and if it were affiliated with a Catholic parish and the Catholic diocese. The Catholic Church does not require a priest for the Sacrament of Baptism. Thus, it is hard to comprehend the meaning of this comment in post 1. “They said it is NOT a sacrament but only a priest can do it.” What is the it?

St. Paul’s classical list of ministries which build up the Church, (1 Corinthians 12: 4-11) does not state that a priest is necessary. Instead, St. Paul is clear that the Holy Spirit distributes these gifts individually to each person as He wishes.

Book on line. A Key to Charismataic Renewal In The Catholic Church
by Msgr. Vincent M Walsh, ISBN: 0-87029-033-9

brendancase.com/uploads/Key_to_the_Charismatic_Renewal.pdf

 

[Anglewannabe]

True, it is not a sacrament, but one can be “immersed in the Holy Spirit” when in deep prayer.

I told the man who gave the talk ‘God touches people when He sees fit. And the problem I have is you said that after going to the retreat people WILL be touched. And I don’t like people making promises they can’t keep. If God does not see fit for a person to be touched on a particular day, we must trust God’s wisdom. Besides anyone can pray anytime for the Holy Spirit and if God sees fit the person will receive it’

The man responded ‘If you pray outside of the retreat it will take you longer. Until you try, you will not know’

What really irked me is he was not willing to agree that God decides when people are touched

Angie

 

[Anglewannabe]

Too often, people fail to recognize that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is unique. Thus, they fail to learn the truth about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Obviously, if one is going to bash the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, common sense should say that first one needs to understand it

I am NOT criticizing the Charismatic Renewal movement. I am simply saying I don’t think these people are practicing it properly and throwing their own agenda into it. Kind of like they are using the name to attract people but not really telling what they are doing to the officials of the movement

Anglewannabe
Please correct me if I am wrong. It sounds as if you were a guest or maybe a new member at this prayer meeting. Was this group a recognized part of a Catholic parish and the Catholic diocese? There is a comment about their work. What is their work?

It was my fourth time going but this is the first time an ‘official’ came to teach. I do believe they are recognized in the church. However, I keep coming back to my original point is they are telling people what will happen and totally overlooking God’s will.

As an example, I am reading the book ‘unbound’ by Lozano. The author says every time he thinks he has the healing thing figured out, God sends him someone he can’t heal to remind him he is NOT God. These people were closed to that theory

 

[Casilda]

As SnoopSword said, and I emboldened, wording is important.

Anglewannabe, you are correct and I do not want to bash the Charismatic Renewal movement, but it does need careful oversight. I went to a healing Mass and there was only a deacon and there were things I was not comfortable with (and I AM familiar with Pentacostal customs because I married one-who is now a Catholic). They have to be careful with what they say to make sure it gibes with Catholic teaching and scripture, it can not be off the cuff to ‘sound’ good.

Example, when one shares the gospel, it needs to be the full gospel. Everyone ‘knows’ John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life”. But that is not the complete gospel. One needs to keep reading…

“17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.”

Kudos to you for knowing something wasnt ‘right’.

 

[grannymh]

I am NOT criticizing the Charismatic Renewal movement. I am simply saying I don’t think these people are practicing it properly and throwing their own agenda into it. Kind of like they are using the name to attract people but not really telling what they are doing to the officials of the movement

It was my fourth time going but this is the first time an ‘official’ came to teach. I do believe they are recognized in the church. However, I keep coming back to my original point is they are telling people what will happen and totally overlooking God’s will.

As an example, I am reading the book ‘unbound’ by Lozano. The author says every time he thinks he has the healing thing figured out, God sends him someone he can’t heal to remind him he is NOT God. These people were closed to that theory

May I respectfully point out that there is a huge difference between the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and the Charismatic Renewal which began in the early 20th century. Respecting your privacy, I did not ask for the name of the host church. I simply asked if the group was recognized or affiliated with a Catholic parish and a Catholic diocese.

That being said, I truly sympathize with your reaction.

I also recognize that even in Catholic environments, a lecture, etc., can be misleading
and sometimes hurtful. When that happens, I hope a person can talk with a true good representative of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. One can always contact the Catholic diocesan office and ask for information. Usually, the person will be given the name of the liaison to the Diocese or perhaps transferring the call to the office of the Vicar for Spirituality. In some locations, there can be another name for “Vicar” office. Another source for information would be the parish secretary who might know of different Catholic Charismatic Renewal groups which you could contact and where a Catholic Life in the Spirit workshop is being held.

There are some Catholic parishes which offer a “Life in the Spirit” workshop. Please note that many other Christian faiths also use the concept of “Life in the Spirit”. The below are two sample links.

miamiccr.com/life-in-the-spirit-seminar.html

presentationministries.com/brochures/MoreLife.asp This one uses one of my favorite explanations.
“The following seminars have been used repeatedly by the Lord to stir into flame the gift of the Spirit (see 2 Tm 1:6-7), that is, to renew our Baptisms and Confirmations.”

The Second Letter to Timothy Link: usccb.org/bible/2timothy/1

6
For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God* that you have through the imposition of my hands.d

7
For God did not give us a spirit of cowardice but rather of power and love and self-control.e

It is we who are to stir into flame the gift of God which is the Sacrament of Baptism. We need to bring back to our own life the graces of this most holy Sacrament. This is what it means to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. This does not mean we are receiving the Sacrament. It is like when we renew our Baptismal promises. Being baptized in the Holy Spirit is seeking the Holy Spirit --personally asking Him to come deeper into our lives so that we can continue the work of Our Lord.

Please check the additional links in post 2 by Guanophore.

 

[guanophore]

Wow i can't believe this is in the Church now.

A second baptism in the Holy Spirit is possibly a VERY serious mortal sin against the Holy Spirit as it demonstrates that you did not place trust in The Holy Spirit in your first baptism. You can look this up.

I think it is a term that infiltrated from Protestant circles that is not the best theological expression. In fact, one can have many “infillings” or “immersion” (baptism) in the HS in their lifetime.

This opportunity exists because of the once for all baptism for the remission of sins. Although originaly Confirmation was to release the Gifts of the HS in us, many do not actually experience this release at the time of the sacrament. When it is apprehended later, it is called “baptism in the HS”. It is not meant to invalidate our sacramental baptism in any way.

If what you are saying were true, the Popes would never have supported it.

I realize things are at new levels of heresy worldwide due to these sheep-stealing wolves called Pentecostals or Charasmatics where they are clearly under curses and spiritual abuse is running rampant to the degree its a psuedo-Christianity.

I urge you to consider the position of the CC before you make blanket condemnations.

But the church should not be quick to take on their ways. Wording is extremely important.

Yes, I agree, and I also think it is important to carefully distinguish from what Protestants teach, to reduce misunderstandings.

The most prideful thing a Christian can do is think they are a special an elite class of Christian because they speak tongues.

I agree, but I don’t think anyone here has claimed that, nor is this present in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

They trick themselves through carnal means to prive their salvation rather than the traditional ways of the church.

Yes, but that is not the issue here. The OP is just asking about something she heard at a prayer meeting.

 

[guanophore]

You are correct! Western Catholics are ripe to accept this heresy (2nd baptism) since they disconnect the sacraments of initiation into three distinct occasions, water baptism at infancy, first Eucharist at 7 and confirmation in the teen ages. Eastern Catholics confer all three at infancy (though the Maronite withhold first Eucharist until 7 as the Roman Catholics). An Anglican-rite Catholic parish locally has reinstated confirmation with water baptism for infants.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a2.htm

I think the disconnect has more to do with the lack of experiencing the activity of the gifts and fruits of the Spirit at Confirmation. If a persons’ life is not transformed, and they are not “immersed” in the HS, it can be like a form of godliness without the power thereof.

 

[guanophore]

May I respectfully point out that there is a huge difference between the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and the Charismatic Renewal which began in the early 20th century. Respecting your privacy, I did not ask for the name of the host church. I simply asked if the group was recognized or affiliated with a Catholic parish and a Catholic diocese.

That being said, I truly sympathize with your reaction.

I also recognize that even in Catholic environments, a lecture, etc., can be misleading
and sometimes hurtful. When that happens, I hope a person can talk with a true good representative of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. One can always contact the Catholic diocesan office and ask for information. Usually, the person will be given the name of the liaison to the Diocese or perhaps transferring the call to the office of the Vicar for Spirituality. In some locations, there can be another name for “Vicar” office. Another source for information would be the parish secretary who might know of different Catholic Charismatic Renewal groups which you could contact and where a Catholic Life in the Spirit workshop is being held.

There are some Catholic parishes which offer a “Life in the Spirit” workshop. Please note that many other Christian faiths also use the concept of “Life in the Spirit”. The below are two sample links.

miamiccr.com/life-in-the-spirit-seminar.html

presentationministries.com/brochures/MoreLife.asp This one uses one of my favorite explanations.
“The following seminars have been used repeatedly by the Lord to stir into flame the gift of the Spirit (see 2 Tm 1:6-7), that is, to renew our Baptisms and Confirmations.”

The Second Letter to Timothy Link: usccb.org/bible/2timothy/1

6
For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God* that you have through the imposition of my hands.d

7
For God did not give us a spirit of cowardice but rather of power and love and self-control.e

It is we who are to stir into flame the gift of God which is the Sacrament of Baptism. We need to bring back to our own life the graces of this most holy Sacrament. This is what it means to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. This does not mean we are receiving the Sacrament. It is like when we renew our Baptismal promises. Being baptized in the Holy Spirit is seeking the Holy Spirit --personally asking Him to come deeper into our lives so that we can continue the work of Our Lord.

I agree, Granny, using the language “stir into flame” is much more reflective of the Catholic understanding of sacramental theology and how we may later attain to the full benefits of it. I would prefer that language be used across the board! It would eliminate the misunderstanding that there is some kind of “2nd” baptism occurring.

 

[Anglewannabe]

I think it is a **term that infiltrated **from Protestant circles that is not the best theological expression. In fact, one can have many “infillings” or “immersion” (baptism) in the HS in their lifetime.

.

I highlighted what I believe to be the big concern. By allowing untrue things to infiltrate is how the devil tricks us. Being soft and excusing it for just being a term is the beginning of being mislead. As a Catholic, I always want to beware of wolves in sheep’s skins and immediately put a stop to a lie no matter how ‘small’ it may appear

 

[Casilda]

I urge you to consider the position of the CC before you make blanket condemnations.

Yes, I agree, and I also think it is important to carefully distinguish from what Protestants teach, to reduce misunderstandings.

I agree, but I don’t think anyone here has claimed that, nor is this present in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

I believe what SnoopSword was condemning were

Pentecostals or Charasmatics where they are clearly under curses and spiritual abuse is running rampant to the degree its a psuedo-Christianity.

What Protestants ‘teach’ is a fluid concept, its always changing. You can have a nominally adherent group turn apostate overnight. I have been there when the devil enters to wreak havoc.

The OP has witnessed his subtlety.

 

[grannymh]

I highlighted what I believe to be the big concern. By allowing untrue things to infiltrate is how the devil tricks us. Being soft and excusing it for just being a term is the beginning of being mislead. As a Catholic, I always want to beware of wolves in sheep’s skins and immediately put a stop to a lie no matter how ‘small’ it may appear

You are correct when you said " By allowing untrue things to infiltrate is how the devil tricks us."

If you would be so kind – would you explain or describe what untrue thing or teaching you witnessed? As a Catholic, you need to know what steps you should take.

 

[EasterJoy]

I told the man who gave the talk ‘God touches people when He sees fit. And the problem I have is you said that after going to the retreat people WILL be touched. And I don’t like people making promises they can’t keep. If God does not see fit for a person to be touched on a particular day, we must trust God’s wisdom. Besides anyone can pray anytime for the Holy Spirit and if God sees fit the person will receive it’

The man responded ‘If you pray outside of the retreat it will take you longer. Until you try, you will not know’

What really irked me is he was not willing to agree that God decides when people are touched

Angie

You nailed it. He has no power of his own to confer anything.

 

[guanophore]

I highlighted what I believe to be the big concern. By allowing untrue things to infiltrate is how the devil tricks us. Being soft and excusing it for just being a term is the beginning of being mislead. As a Catholic, I always want to beware of wolves in sheep’s skins and immediately put a stop to a lie no matter how ‘small’ it may appear

I agree with you, of course. However it is not the experience that is misleading or untrue. The Spirit filled life, and the charismatic gifts are not a “lie”. They are part of the doctrine of the faith and the patrimony of the Church.