Second Commandment the Key

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GerardPaul

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I have ben talking to and e-mailing a man raised Baptist but spent many years in Calvary Chapel. The one subject he returns to many times is how Catholics have accepted a different listing of the Ten Commandments and the main one is the Second. He says our traditions of men have us willing to put aside the word of God for prayer to idols of the saints. What should I tell him?

Jeff
 
The commandments are the same but the way they are separated and numbered differs. It should be noted that there are more than 10 commands in the 10 Commandments. Catholics combine what many Protestants call the first and second commandments into one and split the 10th commandment into 2. However the contents are still the same. I believe Lutherans number them the same way as the Catholic Church.
 
Does the enumeration of the 10 commandments matter?

There are actually 613 commandments.
 
SyCarl said:
The commandments are the same but the way they are separated and numbered differs. It should be noted that there are more than 10 commands in the 10 Commandments. Catholics combine what many Protestants call the first and second commandments into one and split the 10th commandment into 2. However the contents are still the same. I believe Lutherans number them the same way as the Catholic Church.
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For Jews the first commandment is Exodus 20:1-2. When God said that he brought them out of bondage, he has said that he is the one God who saved them.
 
Thank you for your replies. I have told him this and more but he will not let it go. He has made it a trust issue. If you can’t trust the Catholic Church to list the 10 Commandments correctly as the Jews who got them first “How can you trust the Church to be truthful in anything they teach.”

Jeff
 
There is a part of either the First or Second Commandment that says:
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness (of any thing) that (is) in heaven above, or that (is) in the water under the earth:”

Graven image is described as an object of worship carved; usually from wood or stone. It might be extended to other images with today’s technology, but I think the original made (carved) object gives a sufficient idea for this commandment, since that is what pagans did back then in worship.

An article by John Stapleton in the Catholic Encyclopedia on this site says:
“…: the making of ‘graven images’ is condemned; not all pictures, images, and works of art, but such as are intended to be adored and served.”

The “gold cherubim” defense in the “Here’s a clever post” does not hold much water, when you consider that those images were commanded to be made by God. I highly doubt that they were worshipped in any way, since they were not even seen by the people, except by the priests occassionally.

The question of obedience to the commandment described in Exodus 20:4-5 does still seem to require that no such objects be made or used as objects of worship.
 
brkn1 said:
There is a part of either the First or Second Commandment that says:
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness (of any thing) that (is) in heaven above, or that (is) in the water under the earth:”

Graven image is described as an object of worship carved; usually from wood or stone. It might be extended to other images with today’s technology, but I think the original made (carved) object gives a sufficient idea for this commandment, since that is what pagans did back then in worship.

An article by John Stapleton in the Catholic Encyclopedia on this site says:
“…: the making of ‘graven images’ is condemned; not all pictures, images, and works of art, but such as are intended to be adored and served.”

The “gold cherubim” defense in the “Here’s a clever post” does not hold much water, when you consider that those images were commanded to be made by God. I highly doubt that they were worshipped in any way, since they were not even seen by the people, except by the priests occassionally.

The question of obedience to the commandment described in Exodus 20:4-5 does still seem to require that no such objects be made or used as objects of worship.
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And what of the images built into the Temple? … Those by virture of the being part of the temple make them a part of the worship … and the snake upon which the Isrealites gazed to be healed … was it not a 'graven image"? … were they worshipping the smnake and did their healing flow from the snake" … No, they certainly could have believed that but they did not worship the snake nor did their healing come through the snake but from God …

What of the statue of Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial … do you worship it? Are you confused as to whether the Statue is Lincoln? …

If you kneel in prayer with your Bible are you worshiping a “Book”?
 
I think you should tell him that he’s right.

After all, the 10 Commandments have been around longer than Christianity has. So you’d be best to go to the Jews to see how the commandments should be properly enumerated and understood.

Then you should tell him that it doesn’t matter which number a commandment is, that they all need to be followed. Meaning a person shouldn’t make idols or pray to them, or take anything as a god before God.

So he should go study Islam if he wants to really learn how to follow those commandments.

👍
 
I really do believe that the Jews have the ten commandments exactly right. They have not falsified them.
 
I believe the issue just depends upon which “Hebrew Scriptures” you look to and whether you use the Septuagint or the Masoretic texts as your basis … Deut.4:13, 10:4, Ex.34:28

The Septuagint [Greek Trnaslation] was the common Old Testament used by the first Christians. I also think that the Spetuagint is the version from which we have the oldest extant texts tday. The Masoretic text came later in time … but as a Christian - I personally look to the early Christian witness

**I think this is how the religious groups number the commandments :
    • The Jewish & Protestant ?:
    • First Commandment, Ex.20:2.
    • Second, Ex.20:3-6.
    • Tenth: The whole verse 17 (Ex.20:17)
    • Orthodox and other Reformed churches:
    • First Commandment: Ex.20:2-3.
    • Second: Ex.20:4-6
    • Tenth: The whole v.17 (Ex.20:17)
    • Catholics and Lutherans - I believe:
    • First Commandment: Ex.20:2-6.
    • Second: Ex.20:7
    • Ninth: Ex.20:17…
    • Tenth, the second half of the same verse…
    One for divinding verse 17 is that the Christian understanding of marriage does not support the concept of a wife as property in the same way as cattle or other material goods. But who knows?

    Also, the original scrolls had no Chapter and verse notations … no punctuation and in the hebew no vowels *… it is hard to imagine that the inclusion of verse numbers [as determined at random and by the size and shape of parchments] is significant for example splitting verse 17 in to two parts … it was not numbered “verse 17” in the original …

    I believe that conforming your life to Crist is the key … following the commandments is the key to a Christian Life … I do not worship false gods or idols …

    Jesus Christ is the Lord of my life, my Saviour, my God and above Him I have no other …***
 
The first commandment for Jews is Exodus 20:1-2. The first verse is the most important mitzvah of the whole bunch. The first verse in known as kodesh which means holy. And, it implies that Jews must live by every word spoken by Hashem.

You can run, but you can not hide, the Jews know what the commandments are, he spoke them to all of Israel, and that is the whole foundation of Judaism.

If you believe that your soul belongs among those who heard God speak the commandments, you might consider converting.
 
geometer said:
The first commandment for Jews is Exodus 20:1-2. The first verse is the most important mitzvah of the whole bunch. The first verse in known as kodesh which means holy. And, it implies that Jews must live by every word spoken by Hashem.

You can run, but you can not hide, the Jews know what the commandments are, he spoke them to all of Israel, and that is the whole foundation of Judaism.

If you believe that your soul belongs among those who heard God speak the commandments, you might consider converting.
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If you believe that your soul belongs to God who created it, and who spoke all the commandments, and who sent a messenger to all of mankind (and not just the Jews) perhaps you should consider Islam… submitting. 🙂
 
Sister_Amy said:
If you believe that your soul belongs to God who created it, and who spoke all the commandments, and who sent a messenger to all of mankind (and not just the Jews) perhaps you should consider Islam… submitting. 🙂
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submitting to God is not Islam. Islam is submitting to Muhammad’s version of God. Therefore we submit to God who did not give a law about men having 4 women and right hand sexual possessions, we submit to God who did not teach temporary marriages to change his mind later, we submit to God who said " I am God" without mentioning a human’s name alongside Him, we submit to God who did not say “it is ok to have desires for a married woman”, we submit to God who did not tell us to break our oath to our wives just because we couldn’t restrict our lust to sex slaves and we submit to God who does not give His glory to anyone else, not to a god who asks us to stop our prayer to submit to Muhammad. So submitters are those who submit to the Word, not to Muhammad.
 
If anyone wants to follow God’s commandments, he should follow God’s Messengers, the last of whom was Muhammad.

'nuff said.
 
GerardPaul said:
I have ben talking to and e-mailing a man raised Baptist but spent many years in Calvary Chapel. The one subject he returns to many times is how Catholics have accepted a different listing of the Ten Commandments and the main one is the Second. He says our traditions of men have us willing to put aside the word of God for prayer to idols of the saints. What should I tell him?

Jeff
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I’ve heard many Catholic apologists explain why invocation to saints and use of icons is not a violation of the second commandment. However, for me the practice of veneration (in whatever form) is erroneous for an even more profound reason. It juxtaposes the glory of God unto man. It’s the fruit of bad theology (the fallacious idea that man maintains some power within ourselves to achieve “righteousness” in the eyes of God).

IMHO it seems like a huge exercise in missing the point.
 
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