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JamalChristophr
Guest
Do we know that for sure? Canon law is not written in stone. This is something that has had changes through the years to some degree. Right?
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Why is that amusing. I’ll bet up and down my block 10 out of 15 homes have children from an invalid marriage. Most are divorced. Why would you be amused that you are the product of an invalid marriage? Most of the world is.
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Hans_W
Guest
Our poor OP must be utterly confused - I hope we haven’t lost him/her with our quibble about first cousins.
Yes Anson859, you can marry your cousin. May it be a happy marriage, blessed with lots of children!
Yes Anson859, you can marry your cousin. May it be a happy marriage, blessed with lots of children!
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Hans_W
Guest
Yes, I find it hilarious if somebody tells me that my parents had an “invalid marriage”, perhaps lived in an incestuous relationship, probably frying in hell now. I cannot think of a more perfect Christian marriage than they lived for 45 years.
That shows you how far some ultra-conservative Catholics are prepared to take their doctrines.
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JamalChristophr
Guest
It seems like that in the U.S. first cousin marriage is more of just a social taboo.
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Xantippe
Guest
It’s illegal in a lot of US states, too.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States_by_state
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pensmama87
Guest
Depends where you live. I think in a few states it is permitted (and there are jokes about a few places). I think for most people it just doesn’t occur to them (maybe that’s a taboo - but I never had any romantic interest or attraction to any of my cousins even though I didn’t see them often. They were just family. I would have to look for it, but I also remember learning that on the whole, we have a tendency to be attracted more to people who are genetically dissimilar from us, whether they would be considered a relative socially or no.) But yes, social conditioning probably plays a role.
And as to Hans W’s situation, it’s entirely possible that a dispensation was granted even if your parents don’t remember. People can forget details like that, or think it’s a bigger deal than filling out one of several pieces of paperwork, which is probably all it was. And marriages are presumed valid anyway, so unless your parents lied to get married, you have nothing to worry about as far as their souls go.
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1ke
Guest
Let’s be clear. Your parents would not have been the ones to seek or gain the dispensation for consanguinity impediments. It would have been the priest who married them. It was a common enough occurrence in Europe for generations, at least for nobility, so it would have been routine paperwork.
They got married in the Church, which means all things were in order. A priest is not allowed to celebrate a marriage with a known impediment.
Just because neither you nor your parents knew of paperwork, does not mean there wasn’t any. In fact, this sort of paperwork is kept. I do records in my parish and I have such paperwork going back decades. I hesitate to say that their parish will have these records due to the chaos of the immediate post-war period in Germany and Austria, but they should.
This thread has gone far afield into speculation on your parents’ marriage that is completely unwarranted. Having been married in the Catholic Church their marriage is valid unless proven otherwise. As they are dead, no one has the right to challenge that marriage now.
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Sophie_Lawrence
Guest
They were married in the Church, then yes they were validly married. The dispensation would have been handled by the priest marrying them. Your parents didn’t need to request the dispensation personally, the priest would have done it.
I know a handful of first cousins who married, all in Church, validly.
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CliffMiller
Guest
The 1917 code actually would have considered even second cousins as an impediment because they are within 3 generations of a common ancestor. So using the new/old roman way of calculation it would have been something closer to within the 6th degree, correct? beach wedding dresses plus size
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chevalier
Guest
Nah, a valid marriage isn’t that difficult to enter into. It requires only threshold knowledge, consent etc., not perfect.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
That is not true. I think the Pope has even said that many if not most marriages are invalid. This is of course an issue right now with the annulment process. There is another thread dealing with the idea that most marriages are invalid. The consensus seems to suggest that yes, they are. And that is just the Catholic side of things, taking into account non Catholic and now gay marriages and the like and boom! The number skyrockets.
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masondoggy
Guest
My 3x great -grandparents were first cousins and got a dispensation from the Pope to marry.
Oh and totally irrelevant, my 2x great-grandparents were married in a Catholic church in New York and she had a baby almost 2 weeks later.
Oh and totally irrelevant, my 2x great-grandparents were married in a Catholic church in New York and she had a baby almost 2 weeks later.
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anson859
Guest
Thank You… Hans W… now am only worried how to convince our parents…?? Any how… am going for that…
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1ke
Guest
You asked what Church law said on the matter. It allows for it.
You did not ask whether or not it was a good idea. It’s not.
I would encourage you to look elsewhere for a marriage partner. Your immediate family is not a good idea, genetically or emotionally.
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Sophie_Lawrence
Guest
Second cousins aren’t really immediate family. My parents were second cousins, they didn’t grow up interacting as immediate family would, they lived in 2 different towns about an hour away.
I have a great many second cousins that I have never even met, and only a hand full of second cousins that I interacted with growing uo
Genetically, there isn’t any significant risk for second cousins to marry, and they don’t even require a dispensation.
The only thing against it would be a cultural prejudice.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I have so many second cousins, I wouldn’t recognize most of them on the street. Since there is no other place in my family tree where it is “collapsed,” I would not think this is a particular danger. (IOW, half of my family tree is entirely removed from the other and neither side intermarried much in the past.)
It is possible to have yourselves screened for problematic recessive genes that you ought to be aware of before you decide to marry, especially if you share the genes of an ethnic group that tends to carry such genetic material. Forewarned is forearmed.
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lini72087
Guest
What degree would it be for two people who are third cousins (with one great great grandparent in common instead of two)? I’ve been struggling with this issue for a while now, and I am still looking for ways to get past it and move on.
Also, how many of you actually know your third cousins? I only know the names of SOME of my second cousins.
Also, how many of you actually know your third cousins? I only know the names of SOME of my second cousins.
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1ke
Guest
Eighth degree.
What issue? Why a struggle?
I know my third cousins. And, my husband knows many of his 3rd cousins and beyond.
Every family is different.
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QuasiCatholic
Guest
PERHAPS lived in an incestuous relationship? Try absolutely yes, lived in an incestuous relationship. There is no way to marry your first cousin – church approved or not – and not have it be incest by any regular definition of the term.
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