second question for our non-catholic brethern

[eddie_too]

kliska, i appreciate your objectivity.

regarding communal prayer, it seems to me that the Our Father itself teaches us to pray communally. i gather this from the first word being our, the plural of my.

in addition, Jesus often prayed in public. this is often documented in sacred scripture when He worked miracles.

Jesus also attended synagogue. if i am not mistaken, the jews practiced communal prayer in their synagogues.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Eddie, thanks for your thoughts on this and the manner you present them. I too think about this in a very similar manner, but perhaps with a bit more emphasis on the fact that He was also teaching a truth that is good pay attention too, even if it is hyperbole. I firmly believe in following the spirit of what is taught in a non-legalistic manner.

Then why did Jesus pray in public?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I pray for others in private daily… I don’t pray for others in public, give thanks, give blessings, sure, but to actually beseech God for someone or something, I don’t do it. As stated in my posting before this one, human nature itself causes us to change our words, attitudes, etc… when praying in front of others. Now, do I think some can not do that? Sure. I’ve seen it, IMO, rarely but it’s not for me, I’ve tried it.

In short, I prefer private prayer for scriptural and personal reasons; however, if people feel lead to pray with others, go for it. Maybe it’s a problem with myself and others that only I’ve ever experienced.

You should definitely try praying in unison with others. Praying together for each other and for others.

 

[Kliska]

kliska, i appreciate your objectivity.

regarding communal prayer, it seems to me that the Our Father itself teaches us to pray communally. i gather this from the first word being our, the plural of my.

Interesting take! I was taught that the Our in Our Father was to make sure we remembered that we have brothers and sisters in Christ who are on the same level with us before God, so that it underscores the body of Christ.

in addition, Jesus often prayed in public. this is often documented in sacred scripture when He worked miracles.

What is interesting is in studying this, He gave thanks and blessings in public, but apparently preferred to go off with a bit of privacy to pray, usually at least “a stone’s throw” away. One exception is on the Cross, but of course He couldn’t have withdrawn then anyway.

Jesus also attended synagogue. if i am not mistaken, the jews practiced communal prayer in their synagogues.

And I believe this is why He specifically mentions synagogue in his reference. Regardless, I do know that we can all agree that when Jesus prayed it was done with a pure heart and pure intent. There is at least one verse that talks of the disciples praying together after Jesus’ crucifixion.

 

[Kliska]

You should definitely try praying in unison with others. Praying together for each other and for others.

I have before, again, not for me. lol

 

[FathersKnowBest]

What is interesting is in studying this, He gave thanks and blessings in public, but apparently preferred to go off with a bit of privacy to pray, usually at least “a stone’s throw” away. One exception is on the Cross, but of course He couldn’t have withdrawn then anyway.

There are plenty of other exceptions; so many as to no longer be “exceptional.”
Two that come to mind, for instance, are at the raising of Lazarus and His “High Priestly Prayer” in John.

There are also many examples of the Apostles engaging in communal prayer, such as at Pentecost.

 

[Kliska]

There are plenty of other exceptions; so many as to no longer be “exceptional.”
Two that come to mind, for instance, are at the raising of Lazarus and His “High Priestly Prayer” in John.

I don’t see the “plenty of exceptions?” The Lazarus “prayer” was thanksgiving.

The Priestly Prayer in John I’m not going to argue over, but it is interesting that it doesn’t really tell us what when on, and it wasn’t corporate, it was from Him alone, shown in that we don’t know what the Apostles were doing, or if He did as was His custom and stepped away. Regardless, as I said, Jesus’ intent and heart were always pure, not so ours.

There are also many examples of the Apostles engaging in communal prayer, such as at Pentecost.

Yes, as I said. Regardless, it is a good study to notice how often Jesus warned us about the manner in which we pray, and also His habit of separating Himself to pray. I’ve said I do believe that communal prayer tends to be more orderly and “come off” better with rote prayers, and I don’t mean to imply a legalistic standard for others. For me, it’s private prayer.

 

[eddie_too]

i could be wrong but i do not think kliska is saying that Jesus forbade His followers from saying intercessory prayers as a community.

kliska just does not personally feel any affinity for praying intercessory prayers in community.

 

[Peter_J]

That nameless protestant is me.

I feel like we should all run away screaming “It’s the Nameless Protestant!”

 

[Kliska]

i could be wrong but i do not think kliska is saying that Jesus forbade His followers from saying intercessory prayers as a community.

Right, and I think He set up very important teachings surrounding a person’s heart and intent in praying because humans tend toward pride if left unchecked. Unfortunately I think that public prayer is abused the way it was during Jesus’ day. But that is about the person’s heart and intent, which I think can actually be protected by rote prayer (which isn’t a normal “fundamentalist” stance lol).

kliska just does not personally feel any affinity for praying intercessory prayers in community.

For me, I’ve been convicted by scripture and by experience not to do it. But, that could be a personal failing. I like to remove myself from others to pray.

Grace and Peace to you.

 

[Kliska]

I feel like we should all run away screaming “It’s the Nameless Protestant!”

Maybe I need to add that to my “title” here.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I have before, again, not for me. lol

Fair enough, as long as you pray

 

[eddie_too]

and to your spirit kliska!

 

[Kliska]

Fair enough, as long as you pray

AND I like others to pray for me too.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Maybe I need to add that to my “title” here.

I drove by your neighborhood

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I don’t see the “plenty of exceptions?” The Lazarus “prayer” was thanksgiving.

The Priestly Prayer in John I’m not going to argue over, but it is interesting that it doesn’t really tell us what when on, and it wasn’t corporate, it was from Him alone, shown in that we don’t know what the Apostles were doing, or if He did as was His custom and stepped away.

Then how did they know what He said?

How about the parts that were addressed to them specifically, intersperced in the prayer?

OK, here’s another one. Jesus called the Temple a “house of prayer.” Did He mean that people went into little corners of the Temple to pray?

Mt 21:13 He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer’; but you make it a den of robbers.”

Was THIS prayer private?
Ac 1:24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen
25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.”

This doesn’t SOUND like private prayer, especially considering that it is mentioned in the context of fellowship (i.e. community):
Ac 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Temple prayer was communal; Sts. Peter and John engaged in this form of prayer:
Ac 3:1 Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.

Like I said before, at Pentecost:
Ac 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.

Ac 6:6 These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands upon them.

If St. Stephen were in private, he wouldn’t have been stoned to death!
Ac 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Another example of the Apostles praying communally:
Ac 12:12 When he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose other name was Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.

I could go on and on, but I think this is sufficient.

I’ve said I do believe that communal prayer tends to be more orderly and “come off” better with rote prayers, and I don’t mean to imply a legalistic standard for others. For me, it’s private prayer.

BOTH are recommended.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

For me, I’ve been convicted by scripture and by experience not to do it. But, that could be a personal failing. I like to remove myself from others to pray.

Grace and Peace to you.

But, don’t you see, scripture DOESN’T tell you not to pray in community. Quite the opposite!!

Pray in private, sure. Great.
But don’t neglect the meeting together (Hebrews 10), and the sacraments.

Just don’t pray for purposes of pride. Don’t try to get “noticed.”

 

[Kliska]

I drove by your neighborhood

Hahahah. Great.

Then how did they know what He said?

I don’t know, but this has been recorded other places too where it actually says He was alone.

OK, here’s another one. Jesus called the Temple a “house of prayer.” Did He mean that people went into little corners of the Temple to pray?

The temple was still standing and that is where God resided. After the temple was destroyed, we are the temple now, each individual believer is indwelt.

I could go on and on, but I think this is sufficient.

I already said they prayed together. I was talking about Jesus.

BOTH are recommended.

Perhaps. I’m interested in Jesus’ commands/directions and why He said such things, and modeled certain behavior. Again, if you feel you can avoid the pitfalls Jesus pointed out, go ahead. It’s just not for me.

 

[Kliska]

I have a question for my Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and more liturgical protestant bro’s and sis’s; There has been a lot of talk about corporate prayer, and we see that the Apostles did so. Jesus also had warnings about praying in public, so let’s assume the Apostles avoided those pitfall for the sake of this discussion.

So, here’s my question; during the normal course of your services how much prayer is rote, and how much is extemporaneous? Is the extemporaneous truly “extemporaneous” or does it normally contain rote phrases and repeated ideas? Does the congregation participate or is it the priest/pastor totally leading it and speaking?

How do you feel corporate prayer should “look?” How should public prayer by one person “look?”

 

[jmcrae]

I have a question for my Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and more liturgical protestant bro’s and sis’s; There has been a lot of talk about corporate prayer, and we see that the Apostles did so. Jesus also had warnings about praying in public, so let’s assume the Apostles avoided those pitfall for the sake of this discussion.

So, here’s my question; during the normal course of your services how much prayer is rote, and how much is extemporaneous? Is the extemporaneous truly “extemporaneous” or does it normally contain rote phrases and repeated ideas? Does the congregation participate or is it the priest/pastor totally leading it and speaking?

How do you feel corporate prayer should “look?” How should public prayer by one person “look?”

In formal liturgies such as the Mass or the Liturgy of the Hours, all of the prayers are either what you would consider “rote” or else the are pre-written - nothing is extemporaneous.

In less formal gatherings such as Bible study or prayer groups, people are encouraged to pray for themselves and others using a simple formula of “For [intention] let us pray to The Lord,” and then the group responds “Lord, hear our prayer.” To signify that they are joining their prayers to that intention.

This is often preceded or followed by various “rote” prayers invoking the Trinity or God the Father, etc.