second question for our non-catholic brethern

[Kliska]

Ok Kliska, show me a scripture verse that contradicts Catholic doctrine.

Sorry, not going there on this 'board. This is where I wish we could all get together and have coffee… and maybe a side of pie.

 

[Porknpie]

Again, you just admitted that the Orthodox don’t have the same canon, and others can correct me if I’m wrong, even amongst the Orthodox there are slight differences. I’m not just a protestant raising up a concern that has never been raised, or an opinion new to the RCC itself; look up Cardinal Cajetan. Obviously Luther had his thoughts as well.

I freely admit that Christendom has since 382ad at the Council of Rome believed in at least 73 inspired books.

Again, if you believe in a lower number, then you disagree with the universal belief of Christendom from 382 until the reformation. And yes, the Orthodox disagree on the number beyond 73. And yes Luther disagreed with the Deuterocanonical’s. He like you believed he knew better than the Church for 1100 years.

 

[Kliska]

I freely admit that Christendom has since 382ad at the Council of Rome believed in at least 73 inspired books.

Again, if you believe in a lower number, then you disagree with the universal belief of Christendom from 382 until the reformation.

Alas there’s no way to show how many in Christendom actually agreed with such. Further, again, we have different churches believing in different numbers to the over all canon. No one is really having a conniption over it because we can look to history to see why certain churches and individuals recognized certain books and not others. There is a logic to it, it isn’t a mystery.

And yes, the Orthodox disagree on the number beyond 73. And yes Luther disagreed with the Deuterocanonical’s. He like you believed he knew better than the Church for 1100 years.

And Cardinal Cajetan?

 

[Porknpie]

Alas there’s no way to show how many in Christendom actually agreed with such. Further, again, we have different churches believing in different numbers to the over all canon. No one is really having a conniption over it because we can look to history to see why certain churches and individuals recognized certain books and not others. There is a logic to it, it isn’t a mystery.

No mystery is correct Kliska when one does look at history.

Council of Rome, 382ad, 73 books
Synod of Hippo, 393ad, 73 books
Synod of Carthage I, 397ad, 73 books
Synod of Carthage II, 418ad, 73 books
Council of Florence, 1438ad, 73 books
Council of Trent, 1548ad, 73 books

So should one believe the Synod of Hippo or someone 1,100 years later as to what is scripture? Here’s what the synod said:

“Besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing shall be read, in the church under the title of divine writings.’. The canonical books are:—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, the two books of Paraleipomena (Chronicles), Job, the Psalms of David, the five books of Solomon, the twelve books of the (Minor) Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament are:—the four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of S. Paul, one Epistle of S. Paul to the Hebrews, two Epistles of S. Peter, three Epistles of S. John, the Epistle of S. James, the Epistle of S. Jude, the Revelation of S. John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the transmarine Church shall be consulted.” Council of Hippo, Canon 36 (A.D. 393).

 

[jmcrae]

Sounds Protestant. A church can not save anyone either ,right ?

The Church was established by Christ to spread the Gospel in truth and according to His traditions, including His Sacraments. He said, Go forth and baptize; not go forth and write.

 

[Kliska]

No mystery is correct Kliska when one does look at history.

As I said. You can track and study the books the different churches and individuals have all accepted and check into them to see why, and what criteria were met or not met. Do you recognize there were those even in the RCC that did not believe certain books belonged in the canon? Research Cardinal Cajetan. Is his name verboten? I point it out because some people act so shocked that anyone would 1) Question the canon, or 2) Say that it can and should be studied to see what belongs and why.

I don’t blindly trust what another human or group of humans tells me, I will check it out on my own. YMMV, and that is part of your belief structure. Once more, to act as those every Christian’s Bible contains the exact same canon is not accurate. To act as though no one in the RCC/ECC/OC/Protestant denoms besides me has ever dared question the canon is not accurate.

 

[Peter_J]

I didn’t know I was under compulsion to continue in conversations where either 1) Someone personally insults God; the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, my brothers/sisters in Christ, or myself. They are free to keep insulting, that’s their right. or 2) the conversation goes in endless circles, and a poor dead horse keeps getting beaten continually. I have better things to do with my time.

Hi Kliska. Obviously I haven’t been participating in this thread as much as several others have (including yourself), but that is mostly because I’m pretty bewildered by it. Not that I don’t understand what people are saying, I just can’t imagine what this thread is accomplishing.

But more to the point, let me just say that if you’re giving up on this thread, I hope that won’t cause you to also lose interest in catholic.com overall (or to lose in Catholicism, which is not the same thing).

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Acts 17: 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and **searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. **

A couple of things came to mind at Mass today.

Did Mary tell the Archangel Gabriel - Wait! Let me search the Scriptures before I answer the question and submit myself to God’s will?

Did Joseph also say: Wait! I must search the Scriptures before I believe you.

Did Peter or any of the Apostles said - Wait! I must search the Scriptures before I submit to you my Lord?

Did Cornelius put the Holy Spirit on hold and said - Wait! I must search the Scriptures before you bless me?

Did the 3,000 at Pentecost say - You have preached the Good News and quoted some of the Prophets - now wait while we go and verify with Scriptures what you have just told us?

Did the woman crying at our Lord’s feet and washing them with her tears said - I will search the Scriptures before I believe?

Did the thief on the cross said - I have searched the Scriptures and I am convinced that you are innocent?

And countless other stories…

Don’t get me wrong, I love Scriptures - but not Alone. Christ is not confined to what is written - it is the other way around - what is written is in Christ. Just like His Church is. I have no intention of separating our Lord’s Word and Body.

Christ said that He would be with His Church until the end of the world and that the gates of Hades will not overcome His Church.

I believe Him.

 

[Kliska]

Hi Kliska. Obviously I haven’t been participating in this thread as much as several others have (including yourself), but that is mostly because I’m pretty bewildered by it. Not that I don’t understand what people are saying, I just can’t imagine what this thread is accomplishing.

But more to the point, let me just say that if you’re giving up on this thread, I hope that won’t cause you to also lose interest in catholic.com overall (or to lose in Catholicism, which is not the same thing).

Not at all, and thanks for saying so! I do have to bow out of some threads because it becomes an exercise in futility, really for all involved. If we keep going in circles, we literally don’t get anywhere other than reaching a point of exhaustion with one another. I work and am a happy housewife as well, and am a moderator on another Christian board, so I have my hands full in RL. I really enjoy discussion, but there does come a time when more discussion isn’t going to net any gain. lol

I’ve said elsewhere, where I live and have lived I never go to talk to people from certain churches and backgrounds in those churches, and the internet is the only real way for me to do so for any length of time. Being here truly does give me a chance to not just read about all the different churches and their beliefs and apologetics, but rather to interact with believers from those congregations/communities.

In short; it’s nice to meet you!

 

[Kliska]

A couple of things came to mind at Mass today.

Did Mary tell the Archangel Gabriel - Wait! Let me search the Scriptures before I answer the question and submit myself to God’s will?

Did Joseph also say: Wait! I must search the Scriptures before I believe you.

Did Peter or any of the Apostles said - Wait! I must search the Scriptures before I submit to you my Lord?

Did Cornelius put the Holy Spirit on hold and said - Wait! I must search the Scriptures before you bless me?

Did the 3,000 at Pentecost say - You have preached the Good News and quoted some of the Prophets - now wait while we go and verify with Scriptures what you have just told us?

Did the woman crying at our Lord’s feet and washing them with her tears said - I will search the Scriptures before I believe?

Did the thief on the cross said - I have searched the Scriptures and I am convinced that you are innocent?

And countless other stories…

Don’t get me wrong, I love Scriptures - but not Alone. Christ is not confined to what is written - it is the other way around - what is written is in Christ. Just like His Church is. I have no intention of separating our Lord’s Word and Body.

Christ said that He would be with His Church until the end of the world and that the gates of Hades will not overcome His Church.

I believe Him.

I believe Him and on Him as well, and believe He is with all believers even now, as well as the Holy Spirit being with us. What many of your examples miss is that the Jews of the day were versed in scripture, and knew about the coming Messiah. We see them quote it and know it and live it. Further, any interaction with Jesus is interaction with the living Word, to interact with an angel is to interact with a spiritual messenger. Another chunk is taken care of by a proper definition of SS. When dealing with scripture, you rely directly on the RCC in whatever you are studying or reading which you believe relies on the Holy Spirit. I rely directly on the Holy Spirit. It is a fundamental difference, I understand your view, I just don’t agree with it.

Grace and Peace to you.

 

[Peter_J]

Not at all, and thanks for saying so! I do have to bow out of some threads because it becomes an exercise in futility, really for all involved. If we keep going in circles, we literally don’t get anywhere other than reaching a point of exhaustion with one another. I work and am a happy housewife as well, and am a moderator on another Christian board, so I have my hands full in RL. I really enjoy discussion, but there does come a time when more discussion isn’t going to net any gain. lol

I’ve said elsewhere, where I live and have lived I never go to talk to people from certain churches and backgrounds in those churches, and the internet is the only real way for me to do so for any length of time. Being here truly does give me a chance to not just read about all the different churches and their beliefs and apologetics, but rather to interact with believers from those congregations/communities.

In short; it’s nice to meet you!

Thanks Kliska, and I’m glad to see you weren’t offended by the “can’t imagine what this thread is accomplishing” comment.

(I have a feeling there something more substantial that I should say in this reply … maybe in the morning I’ll think of what it is. )

 

[MartinJordan]

When dealing with scripture, you rely directly on the RCC in whatever you are studying or reading which you believe relies on the Holy Spirit. I rely directly on the Holy Spirit. It is a fundamental difference, I understand your view, I just don’t agree with it.

Grace and Peace to you.

I’m not Isaiah45_9, and I apologize for barging into this conversation, but dear Kliska it isn’t just the Catholic church we follow but we also read into the context.

In Acts 17 the Bereans were Jews converting to Christianity. Looking into the verse (Acts 17) they were open to listen to Paul first after that then they checked the Scriptures.

See the difference?

MJ

 

[jmcrae]

Acts 17: 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and **searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. **

Right,. First they received the Holy Tradition, and then they found it in the Scriptures. But I assume they had read the Scriptures before, but never saw the Holy Tradition there, because they wouldn’t have known what to look for,

The same as how people who know about the Trinity can find it very easily all over the Bible, but people who don’t believe in the Trinity can’t find any mention of it in the Bible whatsoever.

Don’t you find that just a little bit strange?

 

[jmcrae]

This is you saying that someone can’t find the concept that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God and God is One in scripture. It’s a strange statement for you to make, because I can do that quite easily, add in the help of the Holy Spirit and there you go.

And again, you have to know already that it’s there, before you can find it. We learn it from the oral tradition (typically from our parents and Sunday School teachers) before we find them in the Bible for ourselves.

No one who is not a Christian opens up the Bible and finds that Jesus is his Creator, and that he must worship Jesus. He has to find that out in some other way, first, before he will know which passages to look at in the Bible that indicate these things.

 

[PRmerger]

I didn’t know I was under compulsion to continue in conversations where either 1) Someone personally insults God; the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, my brothers/sisters in Christ, or myself. They are free to keep insulting, that’s their right. or 2) the conversation goes in endless circles, and a poor dead horse keeps getting beaten continually. I have better things to do with my time.

You are certainly free to abruptly leave the discussion at any time, Kliska.

It is the timing of this departure which is so telling, however.

It’s like this analogy, which we’ve all experienced as children, where we are happily playing a game (say, checkers), and our opponent is losing severely. Suddenly she announces, “I have to go home now! I suddenly remembered I have to wash my hair!”

She is certainly not under compulsion to stay and play the game.

But the fact that she is leaving when she has lost so many of her men…well, it speaks volumes.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I believe Him and on Him as well, and believe He is with all believers even now, as well as the Holy Spirit being with us. What many of your examples miss is that the Jews of the day were versed in scripture, and knew about the coming Messiah. We see them quote it and know it and live it. Further, any interaction with Jesus is interaction with the living Word, to interact with an angel is to interact with a spiritual messenger. Another chunk is taken care of by a proper definition of SS. When dealing with scripture, you rely directly on the RCC in whatever you are studying or reading which you believe relies on the Holy Spirit. I rely directly on the Holy Spirit. It is a fundamental difference, I understand your view, I just don’t agree with it.

Grace and Peace to you.

I was once where you are now. I was convinced that the Holy Spirit was giving me all revelations regarding Scriptures. So much, that I was ready to go back to College and study for my Pastoral ministries. I was already leading Bible studies. I was determined to start a New Testament Church. Because I knew better - don’t get me wrong - my intentions were noble - but still I thought I had a better grasp of Scriptures than most. There is a level of arrogance there .

I also was a Church-trotter, determined to find a true Church. Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Non-Denom, Pentecostal, and others.

I also had all the major translations of the Bible (Which I still have) and all the major study Bibles and all the commentaries, all the major websites with bible study tools, and many more.

A one man authority…

A wonderful thing happened - Scriptures were slowly leading me to the Catholic Church - IOW - the Holy Spirit. I didn’t want to . Oh no, I can’t go back to being Catholic. This made me look into Orthodoxy, since at this time I was studying the ECF’s heavily. Protestantism was breaking apart rapidly.

So I gave in and went to Mass - The 2nd reading that day:

Hebrews 4:12-13
Brothers and sisters:
Indeed the word of God is living and effective,
sharper than any two-edged sword,
penetrating even between soul and spirit, joints and marrow,
and able to discern reflections and thoughts of the heart.
No creature is concealed from him,
but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him
to whom we must render an account.

The rest is history.

You see, I have been told so many time by Protestans what you just said now. That I have no freedom to receive what the Holy Spirit tells me about Scriptures. That I am not free anymore. Funny thing is that I have never been more free in my life.

Nothing could be further from the truth. What the Church does is protect me from falling into heresy and from distorting the Faith - Jude 3 Beloved, being very eager to write to you of our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

By advocating personal interpretation, we advocate chaos and anarchy. Disorder and distortion to the Word of God. We must measure what we think the Holy Spirit is telling us with Christ’s Church. Even the devil can quote Scriptures…

There is plenty of freedom. I meet with my CRHP brothers at my Parish and read Scriptures together and we talk about how they work into our lives and what they mean to us. What we don’t do is make it into a new doctrine or a new Church.

I read Scriptures every day and I apply it into my life in a very personal way. That doesn’t make me the sole interpreter of truth or that I have the correct understanding. That just means that the Word of God is active in me. And if I am wrong - guess what? I am wrong. And thank God for this correction. I mean, who amongst us really wants to be wrong? But I welcome the correction, because even more than being wrong - I don’t want to lead others into error and I don’t want to distort the Word of God. I’ve done plenty of that already .

No mas.

Grace and Peace to you as well.

 

[Croc]

for non-RCs, religious authority does not truly exist. for non-RCs, every man is his own pope.

truly, being RC requires an assent of faith. the assent is given to the idea that Jesus created a mechanism by which all mankind could know His life and teachings error-free.

this idea means that the RC knows, as fully as the Church can provide it, the truth that is Jesus Christ.

all non-RCs are left with no person or institution in this world whereby they can know what Jesus did and taught.

certainly non-RCs can have faith in Jesus. it is just that they can never be certain who that Jesus is and what that Jesus taught because, by their own admission, there is no human being or human institution whereby they can have certainty as to truth.

the entire non-RC christianity is based on the belief that no one knows for sure what Jesus did and taught. as a consequence of this belief, every christian is a church unto themselves. every christian is united to each other by the lowest, acceptable common agreement.

so, it does make sense, from the non-RC point of view, to reduce Jesus and the truths He taught to that which all christians agree upon.

of course, the mormons provide us with the essence of this non-RC christian belief system when they proclaim themselves and their doctrines christian because they believe in and acknowledge the salvific and redemptive consequences of Jesus.

my main problem with this non-RC christianity and its belief that Christ gave us no authority by which we could know HIm and what He taught is that it leads to a deprivation of God’s graces for those who adopt it.

what do i mean by deprivation of God’s graces? those who reject the authority of the RCC do not have access to the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. they do not have access to apostolic succession. they do not have access to the sacraments of Holy Orders, Confirmation, Anointing of the Sick and Confession. they do not have access to all of the tens of thousands of committed followers of Christ who have through the past two millenia lived, preached and taught the depth of Christ’s life and teachings. they do not have access to Christ’s teachings on marriage, on contraception, on abortion.

this deprivation from God’s graces that results from the non-RCs’ belief that Christ left no authority to guide His Church is the true tragedy.

as any sincere follower of Christ will admit, it is not an easy task to live as Jesus asks us to live. to know this and to yet refuse the assistance in following Him that Jesus provided is a tragedy in the truest sense of the word.

I wish you’d allow a non-RC to speak on their behalf. Much of what you have said is not correct.

 

[PRmerger]

And here I thought you already knew that

It’s actually combined in several:

1. Mt. 16:18-19 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

Mt. 28:16-20 "And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost**.Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded **you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

But this one’s MY favorite: John 17:14-20
“I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.GOD CAN’T DENY HIS OWN PRAYER REQUEST Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.THIS MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAY’S:CHRIST TRNASFERES TO THE APOSTLES AND THROUGH THEM TODAY’S CATHOLIC CHIRCH HIS VERY OWN POWERS AND AUTHORITY; REPEATED IN JN.20:19-23 [19] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.HERE JESUS GIVES HIMSELF AS PERSONAL WARRANTY OF INFALLIBILITY WHEN TEACHING ON FAITH AND MORALS [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me”

So there ya go my friend! THANKS for asking,
Patrick

Oh my gosh, dear Patrick.

Please read my post again.

And the post which prompted that post.

And it all comes from the current def of SS which is now that we can believe whatever we want, as long as it doesn’t contradict Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re right. You have psychic powers and I wish to stay out of the way so I don’t get run over. If you are asking questions of someone from another religion chances are pretty good they’re not going to get it right. The tazer approach will discourage me from responding to future questions.
I dont have a beef with the Catholic Church or I wouldnt be here. The Catholic world is vast and im sure I will never see all of it. But coming here is the best glimpse of this world that ive seen outside of church.

What in the world?



Has the Spirit of Christmas Confusion come over this thread and made everyone go all :whacky: ?

Please 'splain your comment, wanda. For right now I am simply scratching my head.

Is there some post I made where you think I said you said that the Catholic world is small? Or that I’ve said you have a beef with the CC?

 

[PRmerger]

. That is, I think at the end it was the “Ark” that represented " Divine Presence, not just the contents. Hence the metaphor of the Ark as 'Emanuel", God with us.

Book, chapter and verse for this, please: the Ark is Emanuel.