Second sign of cross at beginning of Mass

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Not at the beginning of Mass w/ the initial blessing and sign of the cross, but a few minutes later, after the Penitential Rite when the priest says “May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.”, why do only about half the congregation make the sign of the cross again? Are we supposed to do it there as well - I mean I assume it’s just a personal thing, but the priest doesn’t do it when he says that, so I was just curious. Thanks!
 
kpillow said:
Not at the beginning of Mass w/ the initial blessing and sign of the cross, but a few minutes later, after the Penitential Rite when the priest says “May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.”, why do only about half the congregation make the sign of the cross again? Are we supposed to do it there as well - I mean I assume it’s just a personal thing, but the priest doesn’t do it when he says that, so I was just curious. Thanks!
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It is not in the rubrics, so the priest should not be doing it and neither should the assembly. It is not a blessing, or tecnically an absolution, but a petition to the Lord for mercy and forgiveness. One of our priests does it, but he also does a lot of things not in the rubrics.
 
kpillow said:
Not at the beginning of Mass w/ the initial blessing and sign of the cross, but a few minutes later, after the Penitential Rite when the priest says “May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.”, why do only about half the congregation make the sign of the cross again? Are we supposed to do it there as well - I mean I assume it’s just a personal thing, but the priest doesn’t do it when he says that, so I was just curious. Thanks!
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It is one of the places in the Mass that forgives our sins (venial) so I do sign myself as I do whenever my sins are forgiven as in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. I have been forgiven all of my venial sins so my response is to remember my Baptism…so I sign myself. It is an automatic response for me to remember that I am reunited as a daughter of God. Not sure why others do this gesture…this is why I sign myself.
 
kpillow said:
Not at the beginning of Mass w/ the initial blessing and sign of the cross, but a few minutes later, after the Penitential Rite when the priest says “May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.”, why do only about half the congregation make the sign of the cross again? Are we supposed to do it there as well - I mean I assume it’s just a personal thing, but the priest doesn’t do it when he says that, so I was just curious. Thanks!
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To repeat: It is not prescribed by the rubrics.

I am told that in some that remember the Gregorian Rite of the Mass (eg the Missal of Bl John XXIII), it is a habit from a prayer following the Confiteors of the priest and the server:

*P.Indulgéntiam,+absolutiónem, *| P.May the Almighty
*et remissiónem peccatórum *| and merciful God grant
*nostrórum tríbuat nobis *| us pardon, +
*omnípotens et miséricors *| absolution, and
*Dóminus. *| remission of our sins.
*S.Amen. *| S.Amen.

tee
 
jmjconder said:
It is one of the places in the Mass that forgives our sins (venial) so I do sign myself as I do whenever my sins are forgiven as in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. I have been forgiven all of my venial sins so my response is to remember my Baptism…so I sign myself. It is an automatic response for me to remember that I am reunited as a daughter of God. Not sure why others do this gesture…this is why I sign myself.
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Sins are not forgiven at the penitential rite. This is the time to make ourselves aware of our sinfulness and to ask God for His mercy and forgiveness. The priest is asking God to do something, it is a petition not an absolution. The forgiveness of veniel sins happens when we receive the Eucharist
 
Joannm said:
Sins are not forgiven at the penitential rite. This is the time to make ourselves aware of our sinfulness and to ask God for His mercy and forgiveness. The priest is asking God to do something, it is a petition not an absolution. The forgiveness of veniel sins happens when we receive the Eucharist
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Venial sins are remitted in several ways, and as the shcolastics wouold say, to different extents. The Eucharist is obviously high up on the list. But the penitential rite as well can remit sins. For a more technical version, the Summa (art. 3) may be helpful
newadvent.org/summa/4087.htm
 
Joannm said:
Sins are not forgiven at the penitential rite. This is the time to make ourselves aware of our sinfulness and to ask God for His mercy and forgiveness. The priest is asking God to do something, it is a petition not an absolution. The forgiveness of veniel sins happens when we receive the Eucharist
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Sins are forgiven at the penitential rite. Read from an official Church Document below. I have not included all of No. 51…you may want to read the entire paragraph.
In No. 51 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal it states:
The non-absolutory nature of the penitential rite does not mean that venial sins are not forgiven during this rite; they are also forgiven by receiving Communion and by the other intercessory prayers of Mass.
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My original statement said clearly that my venial sins were forgiven and this statement in the GIRM supports this. I will continue to sign myself at the penitential rite since my venial sins are forgiven. I also sign myself when I receive Holy Communion when my venial sins are forgiven.
 
jmjconder said:
It is one of the places in the Mass that forgives our sins (venial) so I do sign myself as I do whenever my sins are forgiven as in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. I have been forgiven all of my venial sins so my response is to remember my Baptism…so I sign myself. It is an automatic response for me to remember that I am reunited as a daughter of God. Not sure why others do this gesture…this is why I sign myself.
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I make the sign of the cross then too. It is a pious practice that many have (witness half of the OPs church). It is not forbidden in any document so there is no reason why those of us with that practice could not continue. It is similar to my reaction when someone says something like “May God have mercy on them” in conversation. I automatically respond “Amen” and sign myself.
 
I do cross myself - as I do at the elevation of the Host and Chalice during consecration and other parts of the Mass.

While not in the rubrics, there is nothing wrong with a layperson making a sign of the cross at any blessed time of day or night - at Mass or elsewhere - whenever one feels moved to do so. Many do so, for example, after they consume the Host at Communion. Is it in the rubrics? No. Is it permitted? Absolutely!

If I started saying the words of the consecration aloud along with the priest, or even doing the ‘orans’ gesture at the Our Father, or the like, that might be a different case.

Those sorts of additions by the laity are arguably blurring the distinction between the priest’s role and that of the laity. For that reason some view them with suspicion.

It cannot be argued that a layperson making a sign of the cross - at any point in the Mass - does any such thing, or in any other way is disruptive or unwarranted for any reason.
 
LilyM said:
I do cross myself - as I do at the elevation of the Host and Chalice during consecration and other parts of the Mass.

While not in the rubrics, there is nothing wrong with a layperson making a sign of the cross at any blessed time of day or night - at Mass or elsewhere - whenever one feels moved to do so. Many do so, for example, after they consume the Host at Communion. Is it in the rubrics? No. Is it permitted? Absolutely!

If I started saying the words of the consecration aloud along with the priest, or even doing the ‘orans’ gesture at the Our Father, or the like, that might be a different case.

Those sorts of additions by the laity are arguably blurring the distinction between the priest’s role and that of the laity. For that reason some view them with suspicion.

It cannot be argued that a layperson making a sign of the cross - at any point in the Mass - does any such thing, or in any other way is disruptive or unwarranted for any reason.
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Amen
 
Joannm said:
Sins are not forgiven at the penitential rite. This is the time to make ourselves aware of our sinfulness and to ask God for His mercy and forgiveness. The priest is asking God to do something, it is a petition not an absolution. The forgiveness of veniel sins happens when we receive the Eucharist
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Actually, venial sins ARE forgiven at the penitential rite, although the practice of confessing them at the next possible confession is laudable.
 
LilyM said:
It cannot be argued that a layperson making a sign of the cross - at any point in the Mass - does any such thing, or in any other way is disruptive or unwarranted for any reason.
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And in the Divine Liturgy we frequently cross ourselves at other mentions of mercy, and of course at the mention of the Blessed Trinity +, of the Mother of God +, of a petition of particular concern +… +++ 🙂

In the local RC parishes I attend it seems the crossing at end of this Penitential Rite is very prevalent for our Filipino and Latino parishioners, but plenty of other folks also cross themselves at that time as well.

It will be interesting to see when the “new” translations come into the Mass, which we are told are actually more true to the Latin, whether there will be anything in the rubrics then about this, as for example was mentioned by tee: “nostrórum tríbuat nobis us pardon, +”
 
Oh, gee… 😦

Do you actually think it’s an abuse, or God forbid, invalidating act, to make an extra sign of the Cross or two?
 
I don’t cross myself then, because the crossing is a “response” to the prayer of absolution, which is no longer said. In the Extraordinary Form, there were two prayers to conclude the Penitential Act, the second of which was an absolution that including the Sign of the Cross. In the Ordinary Form, there is only prayer to conclude the Penitential Act, and it is not the absolution prayer. Since the priest does not make the Sign of the Cross (over us), I don’t make it myself.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say its an abuse for a person to do so, but there’s a reason the reformed liturgy took out that second prayer (the absolution) and the Sign of the Cross. I don’t know the reason (maybe they thought it was a duplication or repetition?) but I’ll respect it as is.
 
Thanks for all the responses. I haven’t been to church in like 15 yrs and of course my first time back at Easter, I just did it out of the old-school habit. Then I saw how a lot of people didn’t do it. I just wondered. And of course ‘back in the day’ we were just starting w/ the holding of hands during the Our Father, but we never did the hands up at the “for the Kingdom, Power and Glory are Yours…” part either. OR the hands up at offering peace to the priest at the beginning or when he offers it at the time later. So I was just catching up on some different things and figured there was nothing wrong w/ doing the sign then, but wondered why 1/2 didn’t do it. And yea, it is a ‘prayer’, so doing it whenever you want seems fine too. My priest signed himself when we were outside and he was walking by the door of the Adoration Chapel…so again, I thought “hmmm, do we do that too everytime we walk by the door” - lol - b/c back then also, we didn’t have those either, or at least my church didn’t.

Thanks again!
 
Back in the olden days the altar servers signed themselves at that time and we did also. The habit just hung on for some of us.
 
japhy said:
I don’t cross myself then, because the crossing is a “response” to the prayer of absolution, which is no longer said. In the Extraordinary Form, there were two prayers to conclude the Penitential Act, the second of which was an absolution that including the Sign of the Cross. In the Ordinary Form, there is only prayer to conclude the Penitential Act, and it is not the absolution prayer. Since the priest does not make the Sign of the Cross (over us), I don’t make it myself.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say its an abuse for a person to do so, but there’s a reason the reformed liturgy took out that second prayer (the absolution) and the Sign of the Cross. I don’t know the reason (maybe they thought it was a duplication or repetition?) but I’ll respect it as is.
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I’m actually writing an article now covering the reform of the introductory rites of the Mass (upto the Collect) through the various schemas from 1964 to 1970. Generally speaking, in the drafts upto mid-1968, the priest would have had a choice whether to say the Indulgentiam or the Misereatur (both without the sign of the cross).

Although the Indulgentiam is more striking, due to the optative nature, and, as has been pointed out by various authors (e.g. Jungmann) was originally a form of sacramental absolution*, strictly speaking, both the Misereatur and the Indulgentiam are on the same footing. In the old altar missals, you’ll see that the phrase “facit absolutionem” is placed before the Misereatur. Even in the current Latin editio typica, it says “Sequitur absolutio sacerdotis” - though, obviously not an absolution in the sacramental sense. You cna also see the Summa Theologica, Q. 84, art. 3, ad 1
Objection 1. It would seem that the form of this sacrament is not: “I absolve thee.” Because the forms of the sacraments are received from Christ’s institution and the Church’s custom. But we do not read that Christ instituted this form. Nor is it in common use; in fact in certain absolutions which are given publicly in church (e.g. at Prime and Compline and on Maundy Thursday), absolution is given not in the indicative form by saying: “I absolve thee,” but In the deprecatory form, by saying: “May Almighty God have mercy on you,” or: “May Almighty God grant you absolution and forgiveness.” [Misereatur vestri omnipotens Deus, vel, Absolutionem tribuat vobis omnipotens Deus] Therefore the form of this sacrament is not: “I absolve thee.”
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Reply to Objection 1. This form is taken from Christ’s very words which He addressed to Peter (Matthew 16:19): “Whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth,” etc., and such is the form employed by the Church in sacramental absolution. But such absolutions as are given in public are not sacramental, but are prayers for the remission of venial sins. Wherefore in giving sacramental absolution it would not suffice to say: “May Almighty God have mercy on thee,” or: “May God grant thee absolution and forgiveness,” because by such words the priest does not signify the giving of absolution, but prays that it may be given. Nevertheless the above prayer is said before the sacramental absolution is given, lest the sacramental effect be hindered on the part of the penitent, whose acts are as matter in this sacrament, but not in Baptism or Confirmation.
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But having said that, the reason the Indulgentiam was removed was because it is more striking. The revisers were very keen, in that age where urged on by news of reform, people were discarding confession and going for “general confession”, “penitential services” and the like, or being told that it was no longer necessary, to avoid the idea that this was a sacramental confession. The Indulgentiam with its triple “indulgentiam, absolutionem et rmeissionem peccatorum” was more likely to give this impression.
  • In one of his books, I forget which, he notes that the Indulgentiam was a priestly prayer (and cites the fact that it used to be sacramental aboslution) and thus removed whereas the Misereatur could be said by anyone. I was somewhat confused by this reference, since (a) the revised rites had the priest saying it in any case (b) the Indulgentiam is recited in the Divine Office when said by laypeople.
 
kpillow said:
I haven’t been to church in like 15 yrs and of course my first time back at Easter, I just did it out of the old-school habit.
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Welcome back! Old-school habit is unlikely to reflect disrespect to our Lord. 🙂

There is a certain mentality of conformity and uniformity in the Latin Church in the US which at times doesn’t match the spirituality of many other cultures and those cultures will bring their own devotional preferences into their worship. Add to that old-school habit and you are likely to find the sign of the cross in many places, as has already been said.
My priest signed himself when we were outside and he was walking by the door of the Adoration Chapel…so again, I thought “hmmm, do we do that too everytime we walk by the door” - lol - b/c back then also, we didn’t have those either, or at least my church didn’t.
Thanks again!
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Why don’t you ask him about it?

I think it’s a basic reverencing, not just passing by as if there is nothing special there. Some people will cross themselves any time they walk or drive by a Catholic or Orthodox church, assuming there is the Blessed Sacrament inside.
 
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