Second Sunday of Advent and Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

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Dan,

Here’s the difference. The obligation to attend Mass on a Sunday is a divine command (and I suppose to a certain degree, so is the obligation for a holy day although in a less direct way because holy days are established by the Church while the Sabbath is established directly by God).

The obligation to attend two retreats is a matter of discipline. The authority which requires you to attend two retreats may likewise attach a stipulation to that requirement that attending one retreat can fulfill both obligations. On the other hand, if both of the authorities which require you to make a retreat were to say “this must be distinct from any other retreat” then you would still have the obligation under obedience to make two distinct retreats.
Fr. David,

Thanks for the reply. I see your point but in the situation we are discussing, anybody who attends a Mass on Saturday evening or Sunday would fulfill the divine command obligation, no matter what Mass texts are used. That much is clear from Canon Law. So, even if a person goes to Mass Sunday evening and is surprised to find out that the Immaculate Conception Mass is being celebrated, he would still satisfy the Sunday obligation–no doubt about it. The question of whether that attendance would filfill the *ecclesiastical *obligation to participate in Mass on this Holy Day still remains. At least, it remains for me.

Thanks again.

Dan
 
I can understand my local Ordinary trying to be pastoral for those who might be unable to make morning ot noon Mass on the Holy Day of Obligation, but, this begs a deeper question.

Have we become so lazy that we cannot even find time to give God one extra hour a week? Where are our priorities? We find time to take the kids to soccer, ballet, karate, band, basketball and all of these other things? Mind you,I am not saying that these things are bad, in and of themselves, but, I think that the signal we are sending to these kids is that this stuff is important, but, the spiritual things are not. Have we become too busy with the non-essentials that we think that shopping, going to the gym or attending a sporting event is more important than giving God that extra hour?
There is a flaw in your reasoning. Peoploe will still be giving God the extra hour for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. Your Bishop is just giving them the option to give this extra hour the evening before out of pastoral concern for making sure people are able to give the extra hour.

What is the difference between offering a Vigil on Sunday night and offering an evening Mass on Monday?
 
There is a flaw in your reasoning. Peoploe will still be giving God the extra hour for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. Your Bishop is just giving them the option to give this extra hour the evening before out of pastoral concern for making sure people are able to give the extra hour.

What is the difference between offering a Vigil on Sunday night and offering an evening Mass on Monday?
Not necessarily because this is one of those rare instances where this particular vigil (and granted, it’s only once every seven years-give or take a leap year) just happens to occur on a Sunday. What do you with the other times?

That is why I maintain my original argument. We make stuff like extra-curricular activities for the kids, sporting events and social engagements more important than the Mass.
 
Fr. David,

Thanks for the reply. I see your point but in the situation we are discussing, anybody who attends a Mass on Saturday evening or Sunday would fulfill the divine command obligation, no matter what Mass texts are used. That much is clear from Canon Law. So, even if a person goes to Mass Sunday evening and is surprised to find out that the Immaculate Conception Mass is being celebrated, he would still satisfy the Sunday obligation–no doubt about it. The question of whether that attendance would filfill the *ecclesiastical *obligation to participate in Mass on this Holy Day still remains. At least, it remains for me.

Thanks again.

Dan
Dan, in such a situation, that person would be fulfilling (the bare miminum of) the Sunday obligation, yes.

It would not fulfill the Holy Day obligation however, because they are two seperate liturgical days, even given that they do overlap in terms of time, and Catholics have two distinct obligations to attend two distinct Masses.

The fact that he is “surprised” to learn that it is the IC Mass means that he intended to fulfill the Sunday obligation. Where was his intention to fulfill the IC obligation? He can’t just skip Mass the next day because he was “pleasantly surprised” to learn that it was the IC Mass text and say to himself that he gets a two-for-one.

I don’t like putting it in these terms, but look at it this way. We “owe” God attendance at two Masses–one for each day. We cannot satisfy that debt by only one Mass.

A man goes into a store and takes from the shelf two widgets that cost one dollar each. He hands the clerk a one dollar bill and ask for 4 quarters. The clerk hands him the 4 quarters. He then gives the quarters back to the clerk and says “here’s my final payment.” The clerk says “you’ve only paid me one dollar.” He responds “no, I’ve given you two dollars, a single and four quarters, don’t you recall?” If he tries to walk out of the store carrying two widgets, the clerk calls the mananager and the manager calls the constable and the constable drags him before the judge and the judge hands him over to the jailer.

He can’t get away with that, because he’s only satisfied one-half of his total debt. He can walk out of the store with one widget or the other widget, but not both. He can come back the next day with another dollar and go home with the second widget, but he can’t walk out with two, having only paid for one.

As I said, I don’t quite like that because we shouldn’t be looking at the Mass in economic terms, but I do think it illustrates the point. And now you know the parable of the widgets.
 
BenedictGal, I’m afraid I’m not seeing what the problem is. My church has two Masses in the morning on Sunday for Advent II. Then they add a Vigil for IC on Sunday night. Then Monday has a morning and an evening IC Mass.

How is the Sunday night Vigil any different than the Monday evening Mass?
 
BenedictGal, I’m afraid I’m not seeing what the problem is. My church has two Masses in the morning on Sunday for Advent II. Then they add a Vigil for IC on Sunday night. Then Monday has a morning and an evening IC Mass.

How is the Sunday night Vigil any different than the Monday evening Mass?
Tell, me, what extracurricular activities happen on a Sunday night, other than the football game on the tube? None.

My point is that people will use the excuse that they are too busy to attend Mass. Part of the problem is that we have grown rather “wimpy” when it comes to worshipping God. We place so many things and events ahead of him that it clouds our priorities. It’s worse during this time of the year because of all of the overindulgence in shopping and partying.

It’s great that your parish will have at least three Masses. I just found out that our parish will not exercise the option of the Sunday night Vigil and will, instead, have two Masses: one at noon and the other at 6PM. My pastor stressed, under no uncertain terms, that all of the CCD kids, youth group members and parents are to attend Mass on that day. 👍

However, I don’t know if the other parishes are being as adamant.
 
Your argument is irrelevent. In Wisconsin, it is custom for no extra curricular activities to be scheduled by school districts on Wednesday nights – in fact it’s policy in most of them – so that religious ed classes won’t have conflicts. By your reasoning, were a Solemnity to fall on Thursday, then parishes in the Wisconsin Province should not schedule a Vigil Mass on Wednesday night, especially since if Mass is offered on Wednesday night either as a Vigil or on Ash Wednesday, religious ed students are required to attend that evening Mass as part of their class for that night. Pretty convenient, don’t you think?

Further, your reasoning would also seem to want to eliminate the Vigil of the Nativity were 12/25 to occur on a Monday (or a Wednesday in my Province), and really, there are no extra curriculars here on Saturday nights, so the Easter Vigil should probably go too.
 
Your argument is irrelevent. In Wisconsin, it is custom for no extra curricular activities to be scheduled by school districts on Wednesday nights – in fact it’s policy in most of them – so that religious ed classes won’t have conflicts. By your reasoning, were a Solemnity to fall on Thursday, then parishes in the Wisconsin Province should not schedule a Vigil Mass on Wednesday night, especially since if Mass is offered on Wednesday night either as a Vigil or on Ash Wednesday, religious ed students are required to attend that evening Mass as part of their class for that night. Pretty convenient, don’t you think?

Further, your reasoning would also seem to want to eliminate the Vigil of the Nativity were 12/25 to occur on a Monday (or a Wednesday in my Province), and really, there are no extra curriculars here on Saturday nights, so the Easter Vigil should probably go too.
Now, let’s not be facitious. 😉

You know very well that there are little to no activities on Christmas Eve. In fact, down here, the mall shuts down at 6PM and just about everything else goes dark at about that time as well. Christmas Eve vigil Masses are packed to the gills down here, especially since a few of the parishes jump the gun and use the Midnight Mass readings and propers instead of the ones for the vigil.

But, going back to my original point. Down here, several things go on during the week. Karate classes, Sylvan Learning tutorials, basketball games, football practice, band practice and other activities that happen in the evening. LIke a priest friend of mine observed, “It’s great that you are encouraging your kids to be active, and that you want them to get ready to go into the best colleges and get the best jobs but, what about their spiritual lives? In the final analysis, that is what is more important. What are you doing about that?”

And now with the shopping and partying frenzy well under way, I am wondering if any of us take time to listen to the small, still voice of God asking us to prepare and make our hearts ready for the Son. I am wondering if we have traded in devotion to the Mother of God, one of the great personages of this holy season in favor of galavanting to the mall or to the parties. Is it really that difficult to give God one extra hour a week?
 
I’m willing to give an hour to God at the Advent II Anticipated Mass on Saturday night. I’m willing to give another hour to God at a Vigil for the Solemnity of IC on Sunday night. What’s the problem?
 
I’m willing to give an hour to God at the Advent II Anticipated Mass on Saturday night. I’m willing to give another hour to God at a Vigil for the Solemnity of IC on Sunday night. What’s the problem?
That’s great that you are willing, and, I have no qualms about Mass since I go to daily Mass myself; but, I would wager to say that the church is not necessarily going to be bulging at the seams on Monday.

And, what about the folks who show up on Sunday night thinking that this will count for both the Sunday obligation and the Holy Day? And, let’s say that they aren’t regular parishioners but show up, as in the case of mine, because of its location and hour of Mass. What if they aren’t aware of the change and then they will have to return on Monday?

That is why I believe that in these rare occasions, we need to respect the Sunday (the entire day) and leave Monday, December 8th on its own, but, for pastoral reasons, add additional Masses, like, let’s say, 7AM, Noon, and an evening Mass.
 
First off, I don’t think it wise to be approaching the obligation to attend Mass from a “we must make a sacrifice” perspective. I don’t believe it is the mind of the Church to make Mass attendance a negative or difficult thing.

Second of all, people wanting a “two-fer” isn’t really your responsibility to worry about. Ultimately, if proper instruction is given, people make their choices. They live with their choices. It’s become a real problem in America where the burden of guilt has been shifted from the chooser to the provider of the choice. As a professional educator, I have committed myself to changing this mentality.

Finally, as I understand Canon Law, if I attend Mass at 9:00 am at your church and then 6:00 pm, I still fulfill both obligations, despite hearing the same readings twice.
 
First off, I don’t think it wise to be approaching the obligation to attend Mass from a “we must make a sacrifice” perspective. I don’t believe it is the mind of the Church to make Mass attendance a negative or difficult thing.

Second of all, people wanting a “two-fer” isn’t really your responsibility to worry about. Ultimately, if proper instruction is given, people make their choices. They live with their choices. It’s become a real problem in America where the burden of guilt has been shifted from the chooser to the provider of the choice. As a professional educator, I have committed myself to changing this mentality.

Finally, as I understand Canon Law, if I attend Mass at 9:00 am at your church and then 6:00 pm, I still fulfill both obligations, despite hearing the same readings twice.
To your second paragraph, Adam and Eve were guilty of following what the provider of the choice, in this case, the seprent (aka Satan) was offering. Of course, in this regard, the serpent was also found culpable by God.

Second, I am well aware of the canonica provisions for satisfying the obligation. What I am saying is that either catechesis is very poor or non-existent or people haee a misguided sense of what is really important. A friend of mine said it best when he noted that parents seem more concerned about getting their kids into the best colleges than they do about making sure they get to heaven.
 
Your analogy is flawed. Satan was giving them contrary information to what God wanted.

If a priest gives the proper information that you cannot get a “two-fer” by just attending a Sunday evening Mass, he is not giving contrary information, and thus isn’t culpable for people choosing to engage in a “two-fer” anyway.

Furthermore, one must be aware of a sin to be held culpable by it. If someone attends your Sunday evening Mass with the intention of getting a “two-fer” and knowing no different, no sin occurred.

I think you are trying to put your own knowledge and agenda ahead of the Church and your bishop.
 
VC,
This is going to sound a bit “legalistic” but bear with me.
Hi Fr. David,

Nothing wrong with following the law, so don’t worry about me objecting. I don’t think you were being “legalistic” at all.
he moment the Roman Catholic steps foot into the Eastern church-building, he has enterred the territory of the Eastern bishop, and therefore is attending a Sunday Mass (properly Divine Liturgy) because the bishop of that territory has permitted the Liturgy at that particular time. The Sunday obligation is thereby fulfilled.
Actually, I had in mind a situation where the Eastern Divine Liturgy for Saturday was celebrated on Saturday *(I want to say evening ;)) at 3:30. *And, assuming that in such a church there wasn’t any such thing as an anticipated mass. I guess you would probably say you would look to when the Eastern rites in that neck of the woods had their evening prayer, and take that as the time of “evening”. But, I can’t help but wonder, and I think you might see this too, if we aren’t scrambling to define a time for something that wasn’t defined in the Canon. You know, first we look to the Bishop, but that doesn’t work, so we look to the Eastern Bishop, but he hasn’t defined it, so then we look to when that particular Eastern rite says evening prayer. . . you get the picture.

I’d like your thoughts on that, if you could share them.

Anyway, that being said,
To your final question, I’m very certain that the bishop is competent to interpret the canons and apply them for his own diocese. No question about it. If he’s wrong, that’s up to Rome to decide.
I think you’ve done a good job laying out your argument and its parameters, and I hope you don’t mind my (academic) questions in order to better get a handle on its nuances. I think the whole thing comes down to this: that you (and others) think that the Bishop has authority to determine when evening starts in light of Canon 1248. I think that you laid out a pretty sound position to take.

On the other hand, Jimmy Akin*, and Dr. Ed Peters, etc. seem to take the opposite position, that the Bishop doesn’t define when evening starts for the purposes of that Canon, or at least his authority, and when evening starts, is doubtful and the doubtful law does not oblige.

Thank you Father David for engaging in this discussion!

VC

*See the comments section for Jimmy Akin’s post Old Liturgical Myths Die Hard.

Here is the relevant portion:
Jimmy Akin:
A point I’ve noted before, though, is that the Code of Canon Law leaves the term “evening” undefined, and different people interpret it differently. The Canon Law Society of America in its commentary on the Code, for example, understands it differently than the Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland in its commentary.
I’d love to be able to pin this down further, though (. . .) documentation from a source that is currently in force that either (. . .) authorizes bishops to make this determination? I am aware of some such documentation from before the revision of the liturgy, but none now.

(. . .)

Bishops are allowed to regulate the liturgy in their dicoese “within their competence” but not outside of it.
Some matters are on the level of the diocesan bishop to decide, some on the level of the national conference to decide, and some on the level of the Vatican to decide.
Thus the question of whether there is anything currently in force that gives bishops the power to regulate this.
In the absence of such a document, the question remains ambiguous.
 
Fr. David,

Thanks again for your reply. I can’t say that I am convinced. But, there is no doubt that I would never suggest to anyone that he should only do the minimum and only go to Mass once when there is the opportunity to celebrate these important feasts.

In speaking to a couple of my professors, for what it’s worth, they, like Jimmy Akin seemed to admit, both said that this is an issue with a difference of opinion. One of them directly said “Yes, I think a person can fulfill both obligations with one act.” The other one thinks so, too, but wasn’t quite as direct. Nevertheless, the more common opinion is that you can’t get a two for one special. The bottom line, though, is that this is an opinion “of learned persons” and not a definitive interpretation.

Dan
 
In speaking to a couple of my professors, for what it’s worth, they, like Jimmy Akin seemed to admit, both said that this is an issue with a difference of opinion. One of them directly said “Yes, I think a person can fulfill both obligations with one act.”

Dan
Wait, Dan, did you mean to say that Jimmy Akin thought there was a legitimate difference of opinion on whether or not someone can fulfill two days of obligation with one Mass? I’ve never seen Jimmy Akin endorse that idea, and in fact, I think I’ve seen him speak out directly against it as erroneous.

Maybe I misunderstood you, though, could you clear it up?

Thanks,
VC
 
You can fill two different obligations with one act. It’s two occurrences of the same obligation that you cannot fulfill with one act.

Catholics are to attend Mass on Holy Days of Obligation. All Sundays are Holy Days of Obligation.

In the case of IC this year, the Holy Day of the Second Sunday of Advent is followed the next day by the Holy Day of the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. You cannot fill two of the same obligations with one act, thus no matter how you slice it, you must go to Mass once during the liturgical day of Sunday and once during the liturgical day of Monday. You cannot just attend once during the overlapping time and call it good.
 
. But, I can’t help but wonder, and I think you might see this too, if we aren’t scrambling to define a time for something that wasn’t defined in the Canon. You know, first we look to the Bishop, but that doesn’t work, so we look to the Eastern Bishop, but he hasn’t defined it, so then we look to when that particular Eastern rite says evening prayer. . . you get the picture.

I’d like your thoughts on that, if you could share them.

Anyway, that being said,
VC,
Here’s the thing. Somebody has to define it. We have atomic clocks that officially define “what time it is.” We have laws that define daylight savings time. That means that answering the question “what time is it?” is simply to state an objective fact to which no reasonable person could disagree.
Now, what is meant by the word “evening?” television broadcasters define it as 6:00 PM for purposes of advertising rates. Individuals might define evening as “when I leave work at the end of the day”, or “whenever it gets dark.” Restaurants define evening as the time when they switch over from the smaller portions and prices of lunch to the larger ones of dinner. It goes on and on.

Evening is a very relative term. So in order for the parishes in the diocese to understand what the Church means by “evening” some legitimate authority must make a decision. That’s what I mean–a decision has to be made. Now, who makes that decision? The canon law society? Their role is to advise, not to govern. The bishop’s role as pastor of his diocese is to govern his diocese. Since someone necessarily must make the decision, it’s only logical that the bishop be the one to do this. He might very well rely on the advice of the canon law society to make his decision. He might delegate that decision to the local pastors (although this would be rare as it would cause chaos) or the director of Liturgy, or the vicar general, or whomever.

There’s noting “ambiguous” about it (as the authors say). The bishop is the pastor of his diocese and has every authority to interpret the canons. That doesn’t mean he can change the Mass on his own authority. The authors are trying to somehow equate a situation of a bishop overstepping his authority on the one hand with the bishop exercising his pastoral ministry of governing on the other hand.

This is what gives the bishop that authority:
If he does not regulate it somehow, the result would be chaos. We would have priests saying that they have a “vigil Mass” at 8 AM on Saturday or some other non-sensical practice under the pretense of “the Church doesn’t define evening, therefore it means whatever I want it to mean.” (we see enough of that kind of nonsense already).
What if I declare that 7 PM on a Friday constitutes “Saturday evening”? What would stop me? After all, to the Jewish people, once the stars begin to show on Friday, it is considered Saturday. Ergo, 7PM on a Friday is “Saturday evening.”
How about if I say that 6PM on Wednesday is considered Saturday evening? After all, if I can interpret it for myself, who’s to stop me?

If no one is competent to define what’s meant by evening, then that means that everyone is competent to decide for himself. Since someone must do it, it falls to the bishop.

In any issue of canon law (any issue) the bishop interprets the canons for his own diocese. If someone disagrees, that person may appeal to a higher authority. If Rome disagrees, Rome can step-in and change it. Bishops can be wrong. Of course, he has to answer for his interpretation, so if he interprets it in a way that is contrary to an interpretation that comes from the Holy See on a similar matter, he will be held accountable (if he gets “caught”). But I must disagree with the authors entirely when they say that the bishop is not competent to interpret what the canon means by “evening.”
 
Wait, Dan, did you mean to say that Jimmy Akin thought there was a legitimate difference of opinion on whether or not someone can fulfill two days of obligation with one Mass? I’ve never seen Jimmy Akin endorse that idea, and in fact, I think I’ve seen him speak out directly against it as erroneous.

Maybe I misunderstood you, though, could you clear it up?

Thanks,
VC
Hello Verbum Caro,

Yes, that is what I meant to say. But, it was apparently wrong. I thought he said that somewhere but I don’t know where. I do know that he is against the idea. So, you are right. At least someone is reading what I say. 🙂

Dan
 
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