Second Sunday of Advent and Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

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zab said:
I don’t think they would have to return to the next morning Mass because they will be attending the Vigil Mass for the feast of the Immaculate Conception. They will have already missed, not through their own fault (unless they were warned the week before) the Sunday Mass. But they may choose if they are able to attend the Morning Mass but I would not think that they would be bound to attend.
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zab,

I don’t think that quite works. Here’s why.

The people who show up tonight at 6:30 intend to assist at the Second Sunday of Advent Mass. While there they find out that the liturgy is directed to the Immaculate Conception. But, as we know from Canon law they fulfilled their Sunday obligation, and what’s more that was their intent.

Those people also* presumably* already intended to fulfill their IC obligation by going tomorrow. IF they don’t go tomorrow, either they don’t have the intention (sinful) or they have some legitimate excuse (not sinful).

Either way they still have an obligation to attend Mass on Monday.

VC
 
Verbum_Caro said:
zab,

I don’t think that quite works. Here’s why.

The people who show up tonight at 6:30 intend to assist at the Second Sunday of Advent Mass. While there they find out that the liturgy is directed to the Immaculate Conception. But, as we know from Canon law they fulfilled their Sunday obligation, and what’s more that was their intent.

Those people also* presumably* already intended to fulfill their IC obligation by going tomorrow. IF they don’t go tomorrow, either they don’t have the intention (sinful) or they have some legitimate excuse (not sinful).

Either way they still have an obligation to attend Mass on Monday.

VC
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I understand what you are saying but I disagree. They had the intent of fulfilling their Sunday obligation and so that would not be a sin for them having missed Sunday Mass. But the fact is they did miss the Sunday Mass. And the Mass they will be attending is the Mass that fulfills the obligation for the Holy Day of Obligation. All the readings pertain to the feast of the Immaculate Conception, not the Second Sunday in Advent. Again, they may choose to return to the Morning Mass, but I don’t think they would be bound too, since they have already attended a Mass for the Holy Day.
 
Karenmarie20 said:
What I am wondering is how would a vigil mass work the day prior since it is a Sunday? Sunday mass couldn’t be considered a Vigil mass could it? Really need help with this dilemma.

Sincerely,
Karenmarie
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It could be counted as such if it is after 4pm.

You would still have needed to have attended (or attend) another Mass to fulfill your Sunday obligation, however.

That Mass would have to be attended from 4pm on Saturday until midnight on Sunday.

As an intersting side note: it would be possible for one to satisfy their Holy Day obligation before their Sunday obligation by attending a Mass after 4pm for the Holy Day as a vigil Mass, and then another later on Sunday night for their Sunday obligation.
 
zab said:
They had the intent of fulfilling their Sunday obligation and so that would not be a sin for them having missed Sunday Mass. But the fact is they did miss the Sunday Mass. . . . All the readings pertain to the feast of the Immaculate Conception, not the Second Sunday in Advent.
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But why would you say they missed Sunday mass? They went to Mass on Sunday, right?

Sunday doesn’t end until 12:00 Midnight.

See Canon Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated** anywhere in a Catholic rite** either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

If you assisted at a Byzatine Rite divine liturgy, you would fullfill you Sunday obligation, even though the readings aren’t the same as your own (presumably) Latin rite, right? 😉 It doesn’t seem to me that the readings (or the liturgy) have anything to do with fulfilling one’s obligation. It is strictly a matter of intent and time of day.

Interested in your thoughts,

VC
 
zab said:
But the fact is they did miss the Sunday Mass. And the Mass they will be attending is the Mass that fulfills the obligation for the Holy Day of Obligation. All the readings pertain to the feast of the Immaculate Conception, not the Second Sunday in Advent. quote]

Canon 1247 states “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass.”

It doesn’t state that it depends on the readings used, so the Holy Day vigil could meet the Sunday obligation.
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AHapka said:
zab;4517801:
But the fact is they did miss the Sunday Mass. And the Mass they will be attending is the Mass that fulfills the obligation for the Holy Day of Obligation. All the readings pertain to the feast of the Immaculate Conception, not the Second Sunday in Advent.
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quote]

Canon 1247 states “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass.”

It doesn’t state that it depends on the readings used, so the Holy Day vigil could meet the Sunday obligation.
I can understand why you would see it that way and for you, upon your understanding, you would be obliged to attend the next day as welll.
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Verbum_Caro said:
But why would you say they missed Sunday mass? They went to Mass on Sunday, right?

Sunday doesn’t end until 12:00 Midnight.

See Canon Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite**** either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
If you assisted at a Byzatine Rite divine liturgy, you would fullfill you Sunday obligation, even though the readings aren’t the same as your own (presumably) Latin rite, right? 😉 It doesn’t seem to me that the readings (or the liturgy) have anything to do with fulfilling one’s obligation. It is strictly a matter of intent and time of day.

Interested in your thoughts,

VC
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If there were another Sunday evening Mass, they would be obliged to attend to fulfill their Sunday obligation. But if the vigil Mass for the Holy Day is the last Mass of the evening, then it fulfills the obligation for the feast day. That is my understanding.
 
People attending the Anticipated Mass for Advent II on Saturday night wouldn’t hear the announcement and think “Sunday Obligation.” They’d hear the announcement and be thankful that there were several options available for meeting Monday’s Obligation.

What’s the problem here?
 
zab said:
If there were another Sunday evening Mass, they would be obliged to attend to fulfill their Sunday obligation. But if the vigil Mass for the Holy Day is the last Mass of the evening, then it fulfills the obligation for the feast day. That is my understanding.
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But Zab, I’m genuinely curious as to why that is your understanding.

Do you see how Canon 1248 means that if one assists at any mass (regardless of the readings) in any Catholic rite (again, regardless of the readings) one fulfills the obligation?

VC
 
zab said:
I understand what you are saying but I disagree. They had the intent of fulfilling their Sunday obligation and so that would not be a sin for them having missed Sunday Mass. But the fact is they did miss the Sunday Mass. And the Mass they will be attending is the Mass that fulfills the obligation for the Holy Day of Obligation. All the readings pertain to the feast of the Immaculate Conception, not the Second Sunday in Advent. Again, they may choose to return to the Morning Mass, but I don’t think they would be bound too, since they have already attended a Mass for the Holy Day.
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There is no obligation to attend Sunday Mass.

There is an obligation to attend Mass on Sunday (or the evening of the preceding day).

There is a difference.

tee
 
tee_eff_em said:
There is no obligation to attend Sunday Mass.

There is an obligation to attend Mass on Sunday (or the evening of the preceding day).

There is a difference.

tee
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I would say that if the intent was to kill two birds with one stone, then it was wrong. However since the intent was to fulfill the Sunday obligation, but the church-goer just learned that the Mass was being celebrated as the Vigil Mass for the feast of the Immaculate Conception, then attending that Mass, according to the quote you gave, fulfilled the Sunday obligation (by attending Mass on Sunday) as well as the obligation for the Holy Day, because the Mass was the vigil Mass of the Holy Day.
 
Verbum_Caro said:
But Zab, I’m genuinely curious as to why that is your understanding.

Do you see how Canon 1248 means that if one assists at any mass (regardless of the readings) in any Catholic rite (again, regardless of the readings) one fulfills the obligation?

VC
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Well, it is like the worldly man who goes to the store on Sunday night trying to purchase items at the Sunday sale price. He was there on Sunday, but the sale ended at 12:00 Noon. However, on Sunday evening he was allowed by the manager of the store to purchase items at the Monday sale price. In the same manner, The Second Sunday of Advent Masses ended in the Morning. The Sunday evening Mass was the vigil of the Holy Day.
 
And this brings me back to the improper empowerment of the laity on a posting board. Why don’t we all just check with our pastors and follow their guidance? In fact, your bulletin (at least mine did) will tell you exactly what to do. In fact, my pastor even told us at Mass last night. I’m going tomorrow night to fulfill my obligation.
 
MusicMan said:
And this brings me back to the improper empowerment of the laity on a posting board. Why don’t we all just check with our pastors and follow their guidance? In fact, your bulletin (at least mine did) will tell you exactly what to do. In fact, my pastor even told us at Mass last night. I’m going tomorrow night to fulfill my obligation.
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I Am Not A Canon Lawyer.

But my pastor is (and a quite good one). He is, in fact, of the opinion that you *can *have a two-fer “…but liturgists don’t like to talk about it.”

(No, he does NOT say that from the pulpit, nor in the bulletin. It was personal communication to me)

tee
 
FrDavid96 said:
Aye Dan, there’s the rub.

It’s not doing a thing once for two “reasons.” That’s what is tripping you up here. Two reasons might be 1. Because I have an obligation and 2 because my little sister needs a ride to Mass. That’s an example of 2 “reasons” or two needs that might be satisfied by going to a single Mass.

But we’re not talking about 2 reasons, read on:

If Immaculate Conception happened on a Tuesday, how many obligations would we have during the week? Two, of course.

The fact that it falls on a Monday does not alter the fact that we still have two obligations, right? Of course.

Now let’s re-phrase that. Instead of saying we have two obligations, we say that we have an overall obligation to attend two Masses. Still right?

The obligations (note the plural) to attend two distinct Masses cannot be met by attending one Mass. One obligation is fulfilled, but not the other.
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Yes, Father. I was a bit careless in my choice of words. I also suppose that part of the problem here is that we are really in an other-worldly realm in this whole conversation since this period between today and tomorrow’s solemnity is, in the Church, two days at one time. It’s 9:23 pm, Sunday and, right now, I can go to a Sunday Mass. I can also go to a Monday Mass right now. It’s like a temporal anomoly from Star Trek…living in two time periods at the same time.

Dan
 
zab said:
Well, it is like the worldly man who goes to the store on Sunday night trying to purchase items at the Sunday sale price. He was there on Sunday, but the sale ended at 12:00 Noon. However, on Sunday evening he was allowed by the manager of the store to purchase items at the Monday sale price. In the same manner, The Second Sunday of Advent Masses ended in the Morning. The Sunday evening Mass was the vigil of the Holy Day.
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I’m sorry Zab, I’m still unsure about how you view it. Why do you think the readings have to be this or that in order to fulfill one’s obligation to assist at Mass? (Seriously, I’m hoping you can shed light not only on your own reasons, but perhaps give me food for thought).

Here’s the thing: if you are Latin Rite, you can fulfill your obligation by attending an Eastern Rite on Sunday. If you do so, the readings won’t be the same as the readings used in the Latin Rite. So. . . . why do the readings have to be Second Sunday of Advent in order for someone to fulfill their Sunday obligation?

Thanks,
VC
 
dans0622 said:
Good questions. I am not sure that we can say, though, that the two obligations are equivalent. In a way, they are. But, one (Sunday) is more of a divine obligation than the Immaculate Conception. That makes me wonder about those times when a Holy Day of Obligation falls on a Sunday.

Let’s say the Assumption falls on a Sunday. We celebrate the Assumption and no one says that it was “abrogated” like when it falls on a Saturday or Monday. But then, how can this ecclesiastical feast day trump a day of divine precept? It can’t. We must still fulfill the Sunday obligation and we do, by also fulfilling the Assumption obligation.

What am I missing? I admit, my gray matter is probably a little bit dim these days after exams…

Dan
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Dan,
What happens in that case is that the texts and readings of the Sunday (say roughly 20th Sunday in Ordinal Time) are not used. Instead, the texts and readings of the Assumption are used. It is still only one day, and there is still only one obligation (not two obligations combined into one).

It is not that Sunday has been supressed. Instead, what has been supressed is merely the texts and readings of the 20th Sunday of Ordinal Time–that is, a page in the lectionary. Big difference.

It also goes to prove the fact that there is no requirement that the readings on a Sunday must be the Sunday readings or the obligation has not been met.

The Holy Days of Obligation are: All Sundays, AND the solemn feast days. Although we usually use the term “holy day of obligation” to refer only to special days, we must keep in mind that every Sunday is also rightly called a “holy day of obligation.”
 
dans0622 said:
Musicman,

Why can’t a person fulfill “two occurences of the same obligation” with one act? Is that a principle of law? Maybe you can give me some examples, other than the one we are talking about, where it will be obvious that this principle is true.

And, what makes these two obligations “the same” while the example of two retreats is an instance of different obligations?

Thanks for your time.

Dan
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Dan, the reason why not, is because those 2 seperate obligations apply to two seperate days. Just because the liturgical time for those 2 days overlap (as opposed to being the same day). It is 2 different obligations. It is an obligation to attend 2 Masses. It is one obligation to attend a Mass on Sunday, and one obligation to attend a Mass on Monday.

One plus one equals two. One plus one can never equal one.

As for the retreat, it is how I tried to explain it to you earlier. The authority that imposes the obligation to attend a retreat has the authority to permit you to count one retreat as two retreats. He likewise has the authority to say “you don’t have to do a retreat at all” The one who imposes the law has the authority to dispense from it. That is the difference.
 
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