Second Sunday of Advent and Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

[FrDavid96]

I understand what you are saying but I disagree. They had the intent of fulfilling their Sunday obligation and so that would not be a sin for them having missed Sunday Mass. But the fact is they did miss the Sunday Mass. And the Mass they will be attending is the Mass that fulfills the obligation for the Holy Day of Obligation. All the readings pertain to the feast of the Immaculate Conception, not the Second Sunday in Advent. Again, they may choose to return to the Morning Mass, but I don’t think they would be bound too, since they have already attended a Mass for the Holy Day.

There’s a reason why such people have fulfilled the Sunday obligation rather than the Holy Day. The reason is quite simply that the Mass on Sunday evening was their last opportunity to fulfill the Sunday precept (and indeed, that was their intent as well). Since the opportunity has come and gone, the only possible way for them to fulfill both precepts would be to go to a Mass on Monday (or a later one on Sunday night).

They haven’t sinned by missing Mass YET. They still have another 24 hours in which to satisfy the second obligation.

On the other hand, if they do miss Mass on Monday, then they will have committed a sin.

 

[benedictgal]

There’s a reason why such people have fulfilled the Sunday obligation rather than the Holy Day. The reason is quite simply that the Mass on Sunday evening was their last opportunity to fulfill the Sunday precept (and indeed, that was their intent as well). Since the opportunity has come and gone, the only possible way for them to fulfill both precepts would be to go to a Mass on Monday (or a later one on Sunday night).

They haven’t sinned by missing Mass YET. They still have another 24 hours in which to satisfy the second obligation.

On the other hand, if they do miss Mass on Monday, then they will have committed a sin.

This is exactly what happend at our parish. Our PV, who is usually on top of things, decided to celebrate the Vigil of the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, only, he didn’t tell the faithful gathered at the Mass, the usual Sunday evening crowd, that this was going to happen. Nor did he tell them that this was their Sunday Mass (if they hadn’t gone earlier) and that they would have to come back for tomorrow. Just about no one had shown up for an earlier Mass so this was their Sunday.

The problem, as I see it, was that the bishop didn’t inform the pastors until last Monday, thus not giving them any time to let their parishioners know. I just wish that Sunday could be Sunday and the Holy Day of Obligation be the Holy Day.

I was 10 minutes late for Mass on Saturday evening (made it during the second reading) so I was going to make-up tonight. I was planning on going to Mass tomorrow, but, I wanted to hear a complete Mass. Oh well, I will still be there tomorrow.

 

[zab]

There’s a reason why such people have fulfilled the Sunday obligation rather than the Holy Day. The reason is quite simply that the Mass on Sunday evening was their last opportunity to fulfill the Sunday precept (and indeed, that was their intent as well). Since the opportunity has come and gone, the only possible way for them to fulfill both precepts would be to go to a Mass on Monday (or a later one on Sunday night).

They haven’t sinned by missing Mass YET. They still have another 24 hours in which to satisfy the second obligation.

On the other hand, if they do miss Mass on Monday, then they will have committed a sin.

So then you are saying that it is possible to attend a Mass for the feast of the Immaculate Conception and not have it count as having fulfilled that obligation.

 

[FrDavid96]

This is exactly what happend at our parish. Our PV, who is usually on top of things, decided to celebrate the Vigil of the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, only, he didn’t tell the faithful gathered at the Mass, the usual Sunday evening crowd, that this was going to happen. Nor did he tell them that this was their Sunday Mass (if they hadn’t gone earlier) and that they would have to come back for tomorrow. Just about no one had shown up for an earlier Mass so this was their Sunday.

The problem, as I see it, was that the bishop didn’t inform the pastors until last Monday, thus not giving them any time to let their parishioners know. I just wish that Sunday could be Sunday and the Holy Day of Obligation be the Holy Day.

I was 10 minutes late for Mass on Saturday evening (made it during the second reading) so I was going to make-up tonight. I was planning on going to Mass tomorrow, but, I wanted to hear a complete Mass. Oh well, I will still be there tomorrow.

I’ve never liked the concept of a vigil Mass. I understand it. I accept it. But I don’t like it.

 

[minor]

The only authoritative statement I have found on the question of whether a Sunday evening Mass can meet the obligation both of the Sunday and of a holy day of obligation on Monday is canon 1248:
“The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.”
This canon certainly does not specify that a person must attend Mass on the Sunday and again on the Monday. Why give it that interpretation? To my mind the obligation is fulfilled for both days by the one Mass. On what authority does anyone say otherwise? Certainly it would be best to attend Mass on each day, but I cannot see that we are bound to do so by precept.

 

[minor]

Fr. David,
I respect your opinion, and I appreciate your response, but you still haven’t cited any authority to support your interpretation. There is an obligaton to attend Mass on the holy day or the evening before. There is an obligation to attend Mass on the Sunday or evening before. If I attend Mass on Sunday evening the obligation is met on both counts. How can one insist on the contrary interpretaion without a pronouncement from the competent authority - in this case, I would think, the Holy See?

 

[benedictgal]

The only authoritative statement I have found on the question of whether a Sunday evening Mass can meet the obligation both of the Sunday and of a holy day of obligation on Monday is canon 1248:
“The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.”
This canon certainly does not specify that a person must attend Mass on the Sunday and again on the Monday. Why give it that interpretation? To my mind the obligation is fulfilled for both days by the one Mass. On what authority does anyone say otherwise? Certainly it would be best to attend Mass on each day, but I cannot see that we are bound to do so by precept.

Unfortunately, I would have to disagree with your intepretation. Canon Law says that we can go to any Mass in any Catholic rite to fulfill our Sunday obligation, but, in the case of a back-to-back situation, like yesterday and today, we must attend Mass on both days because the obligations are entirely different. One fulfills the obligation to assist at Mass on Sunday while the other fuilfills the obligation to assist at Mass for the Holy Day. What that Canon means is that you could have gone to a Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine Rite to fulfill your Sunday obligation, and you could have gone to a Latin Rite Mass to fulifill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. The canon doesn’t mean that you can kill two birds with one stone by using one Mass to satisfy both obligations.

 

[minor]

That’s your opinion, but what’s your authority? The canon is at best ambiguous.

 

[benedictgal]

That’s your opinion, but what’s your authority? The canon is at best ambiguous.

I will turn around and respectfully ask you what is yours? Fr. David gave you a pretty good answer. Furthermore, having served on a diocesan liturgical commission, I am very well familiar with the requirements. In addition, the priests under whom I have served, including my pastor, have always made the announcement, bulletin and in person, that these circumstances are not two-for one deals. This was made especially clear when December 24th fell on a Sunday. Our pastor, with the guidance of the bishop, made it crystal clear that the Christmas Vigil Mass was not going to simultaneously satisfy the obligation fo assist at Mass for the Fourth Sunday of Advent and the obligation for Christmas. This was also reitereated and explained by our local Ordniary to his priests whenever there is a back-to-back situation.

 

[minor]

My only authority is the canon in question, which remains ambiguous. Your local Ordinary’s positon is clear enough from your post, and anyone under his authority ought to follow his direction. Fr. Davids opinion is also clear and I respect it, though I don’t share it. The pastor of tee_ef_ em mentioned in a previous post (post #135) is a canon lawyer, and shares my opinion. The directives of one’s bishop should of course be respectfully followed, but that does not mean their directives are equivalent to precepts of the Church. Bishops too are subject to canon law. All I’m saying is that the canon is open to either interpretation, and until someone with the requisite authority pronounces on this issue it remains open.

 

[benedictgal]

My only authority is the canon in question, which remains ambiguous. Your local Ordinary’s positon is clear enough from your post, and anyone under his authority ought to follow his direction. Fr. Davids opinion is also clear and I respect it, though I don’t share it. The pastor of tee_ef_ em mentioned in a previous post (post #135) is a canon lawyer, and shares my opinion. The directives of one’s bishop should of course be respectfully followed, but that does not mean their directives are equivalent to precepts of the Church. Bishops too are subject to canon law. All I’m saying is that the canon is open to either interpretation, and until someone with the requisite authority pronounces on this issue it remains open.

But, you, as yet, have not cited anything that explicitly allows a two-for one fulfilment of the obligations. These two obligations are separate and distinct. The canon that you cited only refers to the fact that a Catholic may use whichever Rite (Eastern or Latin) to fulfill the obligation. It does not state that one Mass (in whatever form, Eastern, Latin, EF or OF) can satisfy both obligations.

 

[FrDavid96]

That’s your opinion, but what’s your authority? The canon is at best ambiguous.

Minor,

Catholics have one obligation to attend Mass on Sunday.
(by virtue of the canon law which we’ve already had quoted here)

Catholics have one obligation to attend Mass on Imm. Concept.
(again, by virtue of canon law)

Here is the authority for saying that the two cannot be combined:

One plus one equals two.

One plus one does not equal one.

(I doubt I need to cite a source on that)

 

[minor]

benedictgal,
If I could cite such an authority, this discussion would be unnecessary. I was hoping someone else might do so to resolve the question one way or the other. The canon says nothing about two obligations. There is one precept, namely the precept that we are bound to assist at Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation. Further, “The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.” How can you assert unequivocally that we are bound to attend Mass twice in this circumstance?
Anyway, time to go to Mass now! I’ll say a prayer for you.

 

[Aramis]

Construing restrictions narrowly and permissions broadly is part of learning to read Canon Law, Rev. Fr… See also canon 18 of the CIC:

Can. 18 Laws which establish a penalty, restrict the free exercise of rights, or contain an exception from the law are subject to strict interpretation.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3.HTM

in re 2-for-1:
No such restriction is in the canons.
No such permission, either.

In the absence of directives from the bishop, the lack of restriction implies tacit but revocable permissions.

I agree that one should not fulfill both on the same mass, but I disagree that it is self-evident. But not that one cannot do so validly.

 

[minor]

FrDavid,
I’ll say one for you too!

 

[FrDavid96]

benedictgal,
If I could cite such an authority, this discussion would be unnecessary. I was hoping someone else might do so to resolve the question one way or the other. The canon says nothing about two obligations. There is one precept, namely the precept that we are bound to assist at Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation. Further, “The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.” How can you assert unequivocally that we are bound to attend Mass twice in this circumstance?
Anyway, time to go to Mass now! I’ll say a prayer for you.

It’s not “this circumstance” (singular) rather it is “these circumstances” (plural). There are two liturgical days, and two Mass obligations. The fact that those 2 days happen to sit next to each other on the calendar doesn’t change the fact that we have 2 obligations.

 

[tee_eff_em]

While, of course, I submit myself to the direction of my pastors, and it is not ordinarily a hardship for me to assist at Mass, I wonder if the plurality of opinions on this matter creates enough doubt that Canon 14 comes into play?

Can. 14 Laws, even invalidating and disqualifying ones, do not oblige when there is a doubt about the law. When there is a doubt about a fact, however, ordinaries can dispense from laws provided that, if it concerns a reserved dispensation, the authority to whom it is reserved usually grants it.

tee

 

[AHapka]

Ok, let’s look at this from another angle:

Consider that if certain holy days of obligation (example: All Saints) fall on a Monday, the precept to attend Mass is abrogated.

By the very fact that a precept to attend Mass can be abrogated, that means one exists in the first place.

Since there is an obligation to attend Mass on every Sunday, and the holy day (unless it’s abrogated) that would logically mean that one must attend one Mass for each liturgical day.

In any event, this is the Mass we are talking about! It’s the highest form of worship we can offer to God. **Are there so many other things in our life or other priorities that attending one extra Mass is such a big pain? **

Just do it!

 

[AHapka]

I’ve never liked the concept of a vigil Mass. I understand it. I accept it. But I don’t like it.

I understand your feelings. But to put it in perspective, I work most Sundays. The vigil Mass allows me to attend 52 Sunday Masses a year instead of 10-12. Not to diminish your opinion, but it really does help a lot of us.

 

[benedictgal]

Ok, let’s look at this from another angle:

Consider that if certain holy days of obligation (example: All Saints) fall on a Monday, the precept to attend Mass is abrogated.

By the very fact that a precept to attend Mass can be abrogated, that means one exists in the first place.

Since there is an obligation to attend Mass on every Sunday, and the holy day (unless it’s abrogated) that would logically mean that one must attend one Mass for each liturgical day.

In any event, this is the Mass we are talking about! It’s the highest form of worship we can offer to God. **Are there so many other things in our life or other priorities that attending one extra Mass is such a big pain? **

Just do it!

Now, in the United States, there are two excptions to the Monday (and Saturday) abrogation: the Solennity of the Immaculate Conception and the Nativity of Our Lord (Christmas). Even when December 8th falls on a Sunday, the obligation is transferred to Monday, Decembr 9th (universally, I believe). The reason why the Monday abrogation does not kick for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is because she is the patroness of the United States under that title, so, it is our patronal feast.

I agree with your last point, as I have been trying to make that all thread long.