Secret of Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter LoyalViews
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Also, If you recall, John Paul II wanted to make Mary Co-Redemptrix.
Yes Just like Paul says that he saves.

If Paul can save, then so can Mary.

Of course, you know that when Paul says that he saves it is only through his cooperation with our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Same with Mary.

He is a co-redeemer.

Mary is a co-redeemer.

In fact, Yendis–you won’t even believe this, but our own Bible says that we save ourselves!

Yep. That’s what the Bible says!

Check it out: Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so **you will save both yourself **and those who listen to you. "–1 Timothy 4:16
 
The passage about there being one mediator between God and man is in the context of the covenant.

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:6)

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. (Hebrews 9:15)

…and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews 12:24)

There is one perfect mediator of a perfect covenant between God and man. Jesus Christ is the perfect mediator of a perfect covenant between God and man because Jesus Christ is both God and Man. Moses was also a mediator between God and man. Moses mediated a covenant between God and man at Mt. Sinia.

Moses goes up on the mountain and gets a message from God…

***Moses went up to the mountain of God. Then the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying: This is what you will say to the house of Jacob; tell the Israelites: ***(Exodus 19:3)

…and goes down the mountain and tells God’s message to the Israelites…

***So Moses went and summoned the elders of the people. When he set before them all that the LORD had ordered him to tell them, all the people answered together, “Everything the LORD has said, we will do.” Then Moses brought back to the LORD the response of the people. ***(Exodus 19:7-8)

…and then he goes back up the mountain a second time to give the people’s answer to God. He then gets a second message from God…

When Moses, then, had reported the response of the people to the LORD, 10the LORD said to Moses: Go to the people and have them sanctify themselves today and tomorrow. (Exodus 19:9-10)

…and so he goes down the mountain and gives Gods second message to the people.

Then Moses came down from the mountain to the people and had them sanctify themselves, and they washed their garments. (Exodus 19:14)

In Exodus 19:20, Moses goes up a third time. In Exodus 19:25, Moses goes down a third time. Moses meets God a fourth time in Exodus 20:22, and reports God’s fourth message to the people in Exodus 20:25. Moses goes up and down the mountain two additional times in Exodus 24.

Moses himself was told: Come up to the LORD (Exodus 24:1)

The LORD said to Moses: Come up to me on the mountain (Exodus 24:12)

Moses goes up and down the mountain at least six times, giving God’s messages to the people, and bringing the people’s response to God. Moses mediates a covenant between God and man, but the covenant he mediates is imperfect, becuase Moses is only a man. Moses is not God and so cannot represent God before men.

As a Roman Catholic, Jesus has brought me out of the bondage of sin and into the light of his presence, and he did it through scripture and the sacrament of confession. 33 years of habitual sin was taken away from me miraculously when I made a 37 year confession. The sin stopped cold. I know what it means to be infused with grace. I felt it on Sept 14, 2008 at 3:45 PM.

And scripture played a big part as well. Catholics read scripture in its entirety. We don’t take it one verse at a time. We try to understand every verse in its context and try to understand every verse as part of the entire Bible. Reading the Bible this way shows us clearly that the reference to Christ being the one mediator between God is in the context of the covenant, and in the context of Moses also being the mediator of a covenant between God and man.

Christ is the one perfect mediator. Only Christ can represent man before God, and only Christ can represent God before man, because only Christ is both God and man.

-Tim-
There is still the fallacy of saints/Mary interceding prayers.
 
Yes Just like Paul says that he saves.

If Paul can save, then so can Mary.

Of course, you know that when Paul says that he saves it is only through his cooperation with our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Same with Mary.

He is a co-redeemer.

Mary is a co-redeemer.

In fact, Yendis–you won’t even believe this, but our own Bible says that we save ourselves!

Yep. That’s what the Bible says!

Check it out: Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so **you will save both yourself **and those who listen to you. "–1 Timothy 4:16
I do not think you under stood what John Paul II was saying. He made that claim that Mary was equal to Jesus in that she could redeem.

AND NO!! Paul did not convert, I do not convert, and you do not convert. The only man who converts the heart is Jesus Christ.

You took the verse from1 Timothy 4:16 out of context. Lets have a look:

The verse is not about people hearing you and being saved, it was written to warn those who change their doctrine/teaching to fit their needs. If one teaches the truth and believes it, that truth will set them free.
 
Why do I have to find something in the Bible for me to believe it, Yendis?

The Bible does not say that I am supposed to do that.

As such, you are believing a man-made tradition: I must find everything I believe about God in the Bible.

You only heard your pastor say that this is required. And he heard his pastor say that. Who heard another man say that. But not a single pastor ever read that in the pages of the Bible.

That’s a man-made tradition.
My “pastor” has not said this. Your argument is void.

To answer your question, I asked that because the Bible is the word of God, and it he has given us the answers to our question concerning faith. Why can’t you produce one verse? Is it really that much to ask?

I’m an ex-Roman Catholic, I’ve been there too.
 
I do not think you under stood what John Paul II was saying. He made that claim that Mary was equal to Jesus in that she could redeem.
If you could please provide the quote, that would be great. “Equal to Jesus” is required, of course. Thanks.

And, of course she can save. Just like Paul saves. And he even says that we save ourselves (see the Bible verse already provided.) You think that Jesus wouldn’t let his own mother save, when he let’s Paul save? And ourselves?
 
AND NO!! Paul did not convert, I do not convert, and you do not convert. The only man who converts the heart is Jesus Christ.
Again, this is very Catholic of you to say, Yendis! 👍

But also, it does say in Scripture that Paul saves, does it not?

We just know that he does that in the way that he is cooperating with the atoning blood of Christ.

(Just like Mary does.)
 
I do not think you under stood what John Paul II was saying. He made that claim that Mary was equal to Jesus in that she could redeem.

AND NO!! Paul did not convert, I do not convert, and you do not convert. The only man who converts the heart is Jesus Christ.

You took the verse from1 Timothy 4:16 out of context. Lets have a look:

The verse is not about people hearing you and being saved, it was written to warn those who change their doctrine/teaching to fit their needs. If one teaches the truth and believes it, that truth will set them free.
Mary far surpassed all angels and saints, Her transformation into Christ stands alone in degree and kind.

Mary is God’s masterpiece, She is one with Christ and His mission, no one had sorrow like Hers She suffered with Christ in a unique way.

Mary has everything from God, it is God who has placed Her by Her Son. And it will never be taken from Her.
 
My “pastor” has not said this.
Really. Your pastor hasn’t said, “It has to be found in the Bible for Christians to believe it!”

Good. Then you need not ask the question of Catholics, because you realize it is a man-made tradition. Something that you used to believe (for whatever reason), but you never read in a single page of the Bible.
To answer your question, I asked that because the Bible is the word of God, and it he has given us the answers to our question concerning faith.
This is a man-made tradition. The Bible “has given us the answers to our questions concerning faith” is not found in the Bible.
Why can’t you produce one verse? Is it really that much to ask?
I’ll produce one right after you produce the one that says we have to find all of our beliefs in the Bible. 😉
 
There is still the fallacy of saints/Mary interceding prayers.
I’m not too sure that it is error.

The Book of Revelation speaks about bowls of incense held by the holy ones and the smoke being the prayers of the faithful which rise up before God.

Also, you may want to have a look at 1 Kings 2, and the way Bathsheba intercedes with her son, King Solomon, on behalf of Adonijah.

He said, “Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite to be my wife.” Bathsheba replied, “Very well, I will speak to the king for you. (1 Kings 2:17:18)

Catholics believe this forshadows Mary’s role. There are 27 queen-mothers listed in the Bible, and history shows that the way ordinary people often got to see the King or got their request presented before the King was to go through the Queen. We see Bathsheba, Adonijah, and Solomon as an example of this and Christ/Mary as the ultimate fulfillment of the Old Testament Kings and Queens.

Then of course, there is the wedding at Cana, where Mary intercedes on behalf of the wedding guests who have no wine.

I’m not trying to convince you. I generally don’t prostelytize. I’m just pointing out that Catholic belief in intercession is not without a basis in scripture. I see it pretty clearly and no one has been able to show me otherwise as yet.

-Tim-
 
If you could please provide the quote, that would be great. “Equal to Jesus” is required, of course. Thanks.

And, of course she can save. Just like Paul saves. And he even says that we save ourselves (see the Bible verse already provided.) You think that Jesus wouldn’t let his own mother save, when he let’s Paul save? And ourselves?
You clearly are blinded by his implications.
 
Again, this is very Catholic of you to say, Yendis! 👍

But also, it does say in Scripture that Paul saves, does it not?

We just know that he does that in the way that he is cooperating with the atoning blood of Christ.

(Just like Mary does.)
There is no cooperation going on.

“For it is by **grace **you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–”

Grace then faith, never by works.

If there was any cooperation, then why would have Jesus have taken it all on the cross? It was by him and by him alone that Christians have been saved.
 
Mary far surpassed all angels and saints, Her transformation into Christ stands alone in degree and kind.

Mary is God’s masterpiece, She is one with Christ and His mission, no one had sorrow like Hers She suffered with Christ in a unique way.

Mary has everything from God, it is God who has placed Her by Her Son. And it will never be taken from Her.
Mary is dead. She is in heaven ** praising God**. Jesus is on line one waiting for you. Roman Catholics keep calling the wrong number.

Mary has everything because she is in heaven.

And Mary said:

“My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers.” Luke 1:46-55
 
I’m not too sure that it is error.

The Book of Revelation speaks about bowls of incense held by the holy ones and the smoke being the prayers of the faithful which rise up before God.

Also, you may want to have a look at 1 Kings 2, and the way Bathsheba intercedes with her son, King Solomon, on behalf of Adonijah.

He said, “Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite to be my wife.” Bathsheba replied, “Very well, I will speak to the king for you. (1 Kings 2:17:18)

Catholics believe this forshadows Mary’s role. There are 27 queen-mothers listed in the Bible, and history shows that the way ordinary people often got to see the King or got their request presented before the King was to go through the Queen. We see Bathsheba, Adonijah, and Solomon as an example of this and Christ/Mary as the ultimate fulfillment of the Old Testament Kings and Queens.

Then of course, there is the wedding at Cana, where Mary intercedes on behalf of the wedding guests who have no wine.

I’m not trying to convince you. I generally don’t prostelytize. I’m just pointing out that Catholic belief in intercession is not without a basis in scripture. I see it pretty clearly and no one has been able to show me otherwise as yet.

-Tim-
She interceded on earth, but is DEAD now. In heaven. PRAISING GOD.

I’m not shouting, I’m excited. 😃

Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. <<<<What does that line mean to Catholics anyway?
 
Really. Your pastor hasn’t said, “It has to be found in the Bible for Christians to believe it!”

Good. Then you need not ask the question of Catholics, because you realize it is a man-made tradition. Something that you used to believe (for whatever reason), but you never read in a single page of the Bible.

This is a man-made tradition. The Bible “has given us the answers to our questions concerning faith” is not found in the Bible.

I’ll produce one right after you produce the one that says we have to find all of our beliefs in the Bible. 😉
If the bible does not give answers regarding faith, then who is Jesus? Is his passion not an answer to the question “To whom do we believe?”
 
I’m not too sure that it is error.

The Book of Revelation speaks about bowls of incense held by the holy ones and the smoke being the prayers of the faithful which rise up before God.

Also, you may want to have a look at 1 Kings 2, and the way Bathsheba intercedes with her son, King Solomon, on behalf of Adonijah.

He said, “Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite to be my wife.” Bathsheba replied, “Very well, I will speak to the king for you. (1 Kings 2:17:18)

Catholics believe this forshadows Mary’s role. There are 27 queen-mothers listed in the Bible, and history shows that the way ordinary people often got to see the King or got their request presented before the King was to go through the Queen. We see Bathsheba, Adonijah, and Solomon as an example of this and Christ/Mary as the ultimate fulfillment of the Old Testament Kings and Queens.

Then of course, there is the wedding at Cana, where Mary intercedes on behalf of the wedding guests who have no wine.

I’m not trying to convince you. I generally don’t prostelytize. I’m just pointing out that Catholic belief in intercession is not without a basis in scripture. I see it pretty clearly and no one has been able to show me otherwise as yet.

-Tim-
On earth, they are dead and rejoicing in heaven.
 
I appreciate those of you trying to show YendisAgev the importance of Marian devotion, but as one who spent decades in the Protestant world believing as he does, I can tell you it will take much more than good arguments in this forum for him to change his mind. Still, I appreciate everything everyone is posting. I also appreciate that this time around there are at least no Catholics who are challenging the idea of too much devotion to Mary.

Getting back to the OP’s original question (remember?), I would recommend one book that no one ever mentions but which I found very enlightening. In fact, YendisAgev might be interested because it is written by Thomas a Kempis, the author of “Imitation of Christ”, which many Protestants read as well. His book on Mary is called, ironically enough, “Imitation of Mary.” When I first read it, you could not get it for ebooks, but Amazon now offers it here. It is truly excellent. The subtitle of the book says, “Blessed the person who imitate our Lady, for in imitating her, he imitates Christ.”

You can, of course, also get this book in hard copy as well.
 
Another very excellent book is by the same author of “Imitation of Christ,” Thomas a Kempis, who wrote “Imitation of Mary.” I don’t think this is a very well known book, but I found it amazingly helpful. You can get an ebook version from Amazon here, You can also get a hard copy as well, of course.

You can also download a pdf copy of it here, but it is literally scanned in and somewhat difficult to read, although I put it on my Kindle a couple of years ago and read it before Amazon had the ebook version.
 
Thread pruned.
Please, when we have anti-Catholic overnight trolls, report them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top