Secular Carmelites and those curious

[springbreeze]

helpfellowship.org/secular_carmelite_info.htm

Dear Jenlyn

Take a look around this site Jenlyn. It contains pretty much all you need to know about O’Carm

God bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[springbreeze]

Dear Jenlyn

carmelite.org/heart.htm

This link takes you to a page where the Ancient Observance of Carmel rule is listed. Have a look around the whole site, it will tell you all you need to know about O’Carm.

This site is the Province to which I belong in the UK. Also have a look at www.thefrairs.org.uk

This is a great site it contains some of the works of St John of The Cross, Bro Lawrence, St Therese, St Teresa and others…

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Jenlyn]

springbreeze:

Dear Jenlyn

carmelite.org/heart.htm

This link takes you to a page where the Ancient Observance of Carmel rule is listed. Have a look around the whole site, it will tell you all you need to know about O’Carm.

This site is the Province to which I belong in the UK. Also have a look at www.thefrairs.org.uk

Thanks for the links!

Peace,
Jen

 

[Jenlyn]

Joysong:

Do they study the writings of the Carmelite Doctors in community? Does the “promise” you will make witness to your spirit? Are they devoted to Our Lady of Mt. Carmel? Is mental prayer a daily rule, along with the LOH? The director should be able to answer some of these questions.

Carole

I will ask her those specifics. When I asked her about the difference she said that contemplation and service are the focus where in the discalced it just a focus on contemplative.

Peace,
Jen

 

[DBT]

Jenlyn:

When I asked her about the difference she said that contemplation and service are the focus where in the discalced it just a focus on contemplative.

Hi Jen -

We have both orders here in my town. OCD is cloistered . . . our community (OCDS) is attached to them. The ancient order is very involved in running a retirement center and childrens daycare center . . . I’m not sure if there’s a secular community attached to them, though.

I guess it all comes down to what one means by “service” Everything I’ve been taught so far in OCDS stresses the apostolic nature of prayer as exemplified by the Rule.

Best of luck in your search and discussions. Keep us posted!

 

[DBT]

And one other interesting side-note about OCD and the ancient order here in my town.

Maybe it’s just my imagination, but it seems both orders have been featured very prominently in our archdiosean newspaper since Archbishop Burke was installed. Front page articles are a regular occurrence. I think the focus of the paper is changing in an effort to “show” vocations in action. Lots of interviews with 20-something novices on how they discerned their call, life in Carmel etc.

One article particularily caught my attention . . . it was about a group of high school girls who spent a week or so with the cloistered nuns earlier this summer. To a person, they were “blown away” by the experience. Who knows, a vocation or two might come out of it.

 

[AnnieD]

DBT:

AnnieD . . . I’m not from the Peoria area but just down the road a bit in St. Louis. I believe we member from the the Springfield IL area.

I have heard many “Great” things about your Carmelite Group in St. Louis, DBT. You are very blessed to be a member there. I envy you!


Annie

 

[AnnieD]

Jenlyn:

I talked to a director tonight. Her group is claced rather than disclaced. What are the difference between the two orders?

Peace,
Jen

If I’m not mistaken, Jen, it takes 3 years for an O’Carm to become a Professed Carmelite and 5 years for an OCDS (Discalced) to become a Professed Carmelite. The Discalced Carmelites spend more time in Study.


Annie

 

[Augustine]

Leo44:

Just a thought, if you were going to join an order that had been reformed and the reformers declaired Doctors of the Church, why would you want to join the non reformed part of the order? Why would it even exist after all these years? This is not intended to be un chaitable.

Can someone please clarify on why of the reform and why the old order decided to remain unreformed?

I know the story in a very sketchy way: for some reason that I ignore, the rules of the order were relaxed and St. Teresa and St. John reformed it to what it was before, when the orders parted ways. But what are the background and the details?

TIA

 

[Jenlyn]

DBT:

And one other interesting side-note about OCD and the ancient order here in my town.

Maybe it’s just my imagination, but it seems both orders have been featured very prominently in our archdiosean newspaper since Archbishop Burke was installed. Front page articles are a regular occurrence. I think the focus of the paper is changing in an effort to “show” vocations in action. Lots of interviews with 20-something novices on how they discerned their call, life in Carmel etc.

One article particularily caught my attention . . . it was about a group of high school girls who spent a week or so with the cloistered nuns earlier this summer. To a person, they were “blown away” by the experience. Who knows, a vocation or two might come out of it.

What an awesome thing for the newspaper to do!

 

[Jenlyn]

AnnieD:

If I’m not mistaken, Jen, it takes 3 years for an O’Carm to become a Professed Carmelite and 5 years for an OCDS (Discalced) to become a Professed Carmelite. The Discalced Carmelites spend more time in Study.


Annie

After talking to both groups it takes the same amount of time.

Augustine,

You asked why there are more women…
Well a sister of OCD said that OCD was more women and the OCarm’s are more men. Interseting? Your question on why the reform didn’t take hold over the entire group also interests me.

One side note… the OCDS were a brown scapular to meetings that are 10" x 12". That is big!

Peace,
Jen

 

[DBT]

AnnieD:

I have heard many “Great” things about your Carmelite Group in St. Louis, DBT. You are very blessed to be a member there. I envy you!


Annie

Thank you Annie. I am very blessed.

St. Louis is a verrrrrrrry Catholic town. Until just the last few years, our Archbishops were Cardinals. We are a “small” big city but have 29 Catholic high schools!!! 6 of these are within a 10 minute drive from my home.

 

[AnnieD]

Jenlyn:

After talking to both groups it takes the same amount of time.

Peace,
Jen

That would be interesting to find out how they take the same amount of time for formation, Jenlyn, because in the National Statues page of the Carmel Clarion in Sec IV. Cf. Rule, Article 10 under Period of Formation for Discalced Carmelites it states there are two periods of formation, a. the two years before the Temporary Promise and b. the three years before the Definitive Promise. Which comes to 5 years. Thereafter there is ongoing formation for the rest of life.

In the Lay Formation Guide for the O’Carm’s it states on page 8, that Phase One is a Minimum of 6 months and Phase Two, which is the Initial Formation is a minimun of 24 months and Phase Three which is ongoing formation for the rest of life. That comes to 2 1/2 years to be professed.

Maybe some Professed Carmelites are here, and can explain how they go the same amount of time to be professed. Did the Formation change for the O’Carms??


Annie

 

[Br.Dan_OCD]

Augustine:

Can someone please clarify on why of the reform and why the old order decided to remain unreformed?

I know the story in a very sketchy way: for some reason that I ignore, the rules of the order were relaxed and St. Teresa and St. John reformed it to what it was before, when the orders parted ways. But what are the background and the details?

TIA

Dear Augustine,

Your question can only be answered fully in a long book. Fr. Keiran’s introductions to St. Teresa and St. John are good. The book “Journey to Charith” is also good. I’ll give a few ideas, though. During the time of the Black Plague, many orders relaxed some of their requirements for the simple reason that the plague made life extremely difficult and some changes were needed. For the Carmelites, this relaxation was related to fasting and eating meat. That’s it. (However, in practice, the Plague caused other relaxations.) So, when St. Teresa speaks of following “the Primitive Rule,” she is speaking about keeping the fast from Sept. 14 to Easter and not eating meat.

The main cause of her desire to reform the Nuns came from the lack of enclosure at the monastery she entered. Lack of enclosure lead to lack of recollection and prayer, lack of common life, lack of family spirit, lack of equality among the sisters, etc. A desire to return to the first inspiration of the order lead her to ask for the primitive Rule… Those who remained in the old Order were very good, according to St. Teresa. It basically comes down to the Will of God. St. Teresa was called to lead a reform. Others were called to remain in the Order. It’s the same with Benedictines, Cistercians, Cistercians of the Strict Observance, etc. Or, Friars Minor, Capuchins and Conventuals. O.Carm’s have a great tradition and it isn’t necessary that they follow St. Teresa’s spirit. There is a Carmelite spirit which is independent of St. Teresa.

Also, St. John of the Cross is not a founder or reformer. He had a desire for a reform but St. Teresa is the founder and reformer of the Carmelite Order.

Practically speaking, Carmelite Nuns today are Discalced. There are some communities of O.Carm Nuns but not many. So, most have followed the reform. There are actually more OCD friars than O.Carm…even though it doesn’t seem like it.

I hope this makes sense. I’d be happy to say more if anyone would like.

 

[DBT]

Jenlyn:

Your question on why the reform didn’t take hold over the entire group also interests me.

I really should be able to answer this question better than this since it was a topic in one of my monthly assignments . . . but I don’t have the details handy.

The long and short of it, I believe, is that the “reform” movement actually became a seperate order . . . distinct from the ancient order itself. There were a lot of jurisdictinal factors involved - from the Pope, to the King of Spain and the Carmelite Order and many compromises were made. I might be wrong, but I think many factions within Carmel simply didn’t want Teresa’s reforms . . . so after a period of time the reform movement was allowed to develop on it’s own - with a seperate Rule and organizational structure. This might be a bit simplistic but I think the reasons behind the split can be summarized by the difference between cloistered and active religious. People are called in different ways and a different Rule is required.

Read about Teresa’s life at Incarnation for more info about the laxities she saw and the reasons for the various reforms she instituted. I know The Way of Perfection pretty much begins at this point and I’m sure other works address it as well.

It’s also interesting to look at the Carmelite Calendar of Saints. Some Saints overlap OCD and OCarm . . . others don’t. Most Saints are “treated” differently. For example, St. Teresa and St. John are solemnities requiring a fast day for OCD, they are feast days for OCarm.

I think Annie brings out some good points about the Rule being different and the formation periods being longer with OCDS . . . at least it was always my impression that OCDS was considered more “strict” in keeping with the reforms of Teresa.

 

[DBT]

Br. Dan:

I’d be happy to say more if anyone would like.

I for one love your (name removed by moderator)ut! Hopefully nothing I said in my post contridicted yours . . . it looks like we were writing at about the same time.

 

[springbreeze]

Br. Dan:

Practically speaking, Carmelite Nuns today are Discalced. There are some communities of O.Carm Nuns but not many. So, most have followed the reform. There are actually more OCD friars than O.Carm…even though it doesn’t seem like it.

I hope this makes sense. I’d be happy to say more if anyone would like.

Dearest Bro Dan OCD

Thank you for your answer, I was really aghast at how to provide any answer to Augustine’s question because it is such a vast topic and as you say requires reading a whole book or books and looking at the whole history of the OCarm then the formation of the OCD. So I chickened out of answering it and boy am I glad you did!!!

I am in my formation as a third order O’Carm and so far I see little that differs from OCD. From my instruction so far it is clear to me that contemplation and prayer is also to be done in leading an ACTIVE life, the O’Carm takes it’s inspiration from the spirituality of Elijah where it exemplifies his double spirit of contemplative prayer based on Elijah’s awareness of remaining always in the presence of God and also to be zealous in ministry as Elijah did, by serving God and speaking out on His behalf.

Thank you for your words here and God Bless you always.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Augustine]

springbreeze:

I was really aghast at how to provide any answer to Augustine’s question…

Sorry for my childish questions. In this day and age of the Internet, I got spoiled by immediateness without having a clue about the length that some subjects deserve.

Now on to yet another question, but perhaps easier to answer : aren’t 3 Doctors OCD (Teresa of Jesus, John of the Cross and Teresa of the Child Jesus)? How many are OC?

It may sound as a ranking competition, but it’s not. It’s curiosity. These more recent ones are easy to remeber, but being OC so old, perhaps some of those less often remembered Doctors were OC.

 

[julesrococo]

You’ll have to forgive my butting in, but I am almost positive that there are no O’Carm Doctors, just the great treasures of our OCD Saints, Holy Mother St. Teresa of Jesus, Holy Father St. John of the Cross, and St. Therese.
I am presently discerning life as a Discalced Carmelite Nun and have found much warmth and friendship, as well as instruction from these great Saints.
I think Holy Father, St. John of the Cross sums it up well:
“To come to possess all, desire the possession of nothing. To arrive at being all, desire to be nothing.”
May the love of Christ compel you.

 

[Jenlyn]

julesrococo:

You’ll have to forgive my butting in, but I am almost positive that there are no O’Carm Doctors, just the great treasures of our OCD Saints, Holy Mother St. Teresa of Jesus, Holy Father St. John of the Cross, and St. Therese.
I am presently discerning life as a Discalced Carmelite Nun and have found much warmth and friendship, as well as instruction from these great Saints.
I think Holy Father, St. John of the Cross sums it up well:
“To come to possess all, desire the possession of nothing. To arrive at being all, desire to be nothing.”
May the love of Christ compel you.

Butting in? Not at all! Welcome!

Peace,
Jen