Secular Carmelites and those curious

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Dear friends

I don’t wish to engage in a competition between whether O’Carm is worse than OCD. St Teresa and St John started their lives in O’Carm though they are the great saints of OCD.

Both Orders are Carmelite and this is the thing to concentrate on

quote…Teresa of Avila reminded us that Carmelite communities are meant to be communities of friends who are friends with Jesus Christ. Distinctions which create divisions or hierarchies, whether secular or religious are to be vigorously shunned. Carmelite life undermines any claim to privilege other than the supreme privilege of being loved by God. Teresa challenged her sisters to strive for a high ideal: “all must be friends, all must be loved, all must be held dear, all must be helped.” Philip Thibault, leader of a 17th century reform of Carmel, offered as his motto: “More unity, less perfection!”

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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DBT:
I for one love your (name removed by moderator)ut! Hopefully nothing I said in my post contridicted yours . . . it looks like we were writing at about the same time.
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Dear DBT,

I don’t see any contradictions. I’d only say that the Rule St. Teresa adopted and the Rule she left behind were practically the same and are both “Carmelite.” Today, we have the same Rule (the Primitive Rule of 1247) but different Constitutions and hierarchy. (I’m speaking of the 1st and 2nd orders of O.Carm and OCD–I don’t know as much about the 3rd orders.) It’s the same with all the different Franciscans and Benedictines–same Rule but different ways of putting it into practice.

Regarding the distinction between active and cloistered–yes and no. Carmelite Nuns were founded (by Bl. John Soreth) to be cloistered contemplatives–that’s the only kind of women religious there were back then. The Plague made relaxations necessary for a time. What St. Teresa wanted to do was return to a more eremitical and secluded lifestyle that was still communitarian. For the friars, though, we are a mixed breed–not really active but not really cloistered. We are to cultivate contemplation and be spiritually experienced but are also to engage in ministry, especially with the Nuns. So, while we used to have a very strict cloister, that was to keep others out, not us in…if you know what I mean.

It’s also extremely important to remember that the Protestant Reformation was pivotal in pushing St. Teresa to her foundations–that’s where the beginning of the Way of Perfection comes in, as you mentioned. Basically, if it wasn’t for those Lutherans, the OCD might not exist!

By the way, it’s “Journey to Carith”, not “Charith.”
 
Thank you very much for your (name removed by moderator)ut and clarifications Br. Dan! I look forward to hearing more from you. 🙂
 
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Augustine:
Sorry for my childish questions. In this day and age of the Internet, I got spoiled by immediateness without having a clue about the length that some subjects deserve.

Now on to yet another question, but perhaps easier to answer ;): aren’t 3 Doctors OCD (Teresa of Jesus, John of the Cross and Teresa of the Child Jesus)? How many are OC?

It may sound as a ranking competition, but it’s not. It’s curiosity. These more recent ones are easy to remeber, but being OC so old, perhaps some of those less often remembered Doctors were OC.

:blessyou:
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Dearest Augustine

Come on dear friend! Your question wasn’t childish at all, please don’t look at it that way. It was a good and complex question with alot of history behind it. I didn’t think your question childish, just hard for me to answer!!🙂

God Bless you always Augustine and you and your wife remain in my prayers, much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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springbreeze:
Dearest Bro Dan OCD

I am in my formation as a third order O’Carm and so far I see little that differs from OCD. From my instruction so far it is clear to me that contemplation and prayer is also to be done in leading an ACTIVE life, the O’Carm takes it’s inspiration from the spirituality of Elijah where it exemplifies his double spirit of contemplative prayer based on Elijah’s awareness of remaining always in the presence of God and also to be zealous in ministry as Elijah did, by serving God and speaking out on His behalf.

Teresa
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Dear Teresa,
Thanks for your kind words. I think it is good of you to focus on the similarities–there are many. St. Teresa depended entirely on the Carmelite tradition she had received and that is a tradition we OCDs still depend on. We put that tradition into practice in St. Teresa’s way, though…while O.Carm’s put it into practice in a different way. So, O.Carm’d and OCD’s are similar and different…not better and worse.

(julesrococo–i just sent you a personal message…)
 
Br. Dan:
Dear Teresa,
Thanks for your kind words. I think it is good of you to focus on the similarities–there are many. St. Teresa depended entirely on the Carmelite tradition she had received and that is a tradition we OCDs still depend on. We put that tradition into practice in St. Teresa’s way, though…while O.Carm’s put it into practice in a different way. So, O.Carm’d and OCD’s are similar and different…not better and worse.

(julesrococo–i just sent you a personal message…)
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Dearest Br Dan

You are most welcome dear friend, as it is the truth! Thank you for your reply and lovely and succinctly said! You are right, but I can cheat a bit and lend some of the spirituality of St Teresa, St therese and St John also carrying that in my heart 😃 . O’Carm dearly loves all of those Saints and I am being taught of their ways as well as the ancient tradition. Am I being greedy? You bet I am 🙂 , only a fool would ignore such great teachings.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear Julesrococo

May I add my welcome to you, also, to the Carmelite thread, it is a fast growing thread so I am sorry I missed your post until just now.

Welcome and it is lovely to have you here.🙂

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
I would just like to say “wow” this thread made it to the fourth page! Not to many threads do. It says alot for the people on this thread. 👍

xoxoxoxox to all,
Jen
 
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springbreeze:
Dear friends

I don’t wish to engage in a competition between whether O’Carm is worse than OCD. St Teresa and St John started their lives in O’Carm though they are the great saints of OCD.
Teresa
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Teresa,

I do hope that this is not a competition for who is the better group. I was surprised to know that there where two groups and just wanted to know the difference between the two. Knowing that you are a formative in the O Carm group I hoped that you would share. 🙂

I only want to understand and do not intend to offend.

Peace,
Jen
 
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Jenlyn:
I would just like to say “wow” this thread made it to the fourth page! Not to many threads do. It says alot for the people on this thread. 👍

xoxoxoxox to all,
Jen
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Dearest Jen

😃 Yes it is a shocker but isn’t it marvellous and truly prosperous?

You know I pray for this thread and I know others do also and this is a true fruit of prayer…

I always remember, wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in My name, so am I there… this is very true of this beautiful thread.

God’s love is reflected in human love…

God Bless each one of you, many many of His blessings and graces to all of you

Teresa
 
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Jenlyn:
Teresa,

I do hope that this is not a competition for who is the better group. I was surprised to know that there where two groups and just wanted to know the difference between the two. Knowing that you are a formative in the O Carm group I hoped that you would share. 🙂

I only want to understand and do not intend to offend.

Peace,
Jen
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Dearest Jenlyn

Oh, dear friend I know that of you. I do not sit at my desk thinking the negative of people who share my faith with me, how could I?

I know that is not the case and so friend, please realise that I do not think that of you as well.🙂

As Bro. Dan Said, we are all Carmelites but we do it differently, from the same origins,but at the centre and summit of all of this is Christ Jesus and in Him we are not adversaries but friends and no competition exists as God loves all equally.

God Bless you Jenlyn and much love and peace to you and those you love and hold dearest to your heart

Teresa
 
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Jenlyn:
I only want to understand and do not intend to offend.
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Jen, in no way do you offend 🙂 A discussion of the similarities and differences between the orders is beneficial to all and isn’t meant to be taken as “better or worse.” I guess I more or less take it for granted that everyone here is of the same point of view. Maybe it just needed to be said, though, so everyone can feel welcome on this wonderful thread. Thanks Br. Dan.
 
Anyone trying to decide “what or if or which” should attend meetings, this will tell you if the “group” of people you are about to spend some serious time with are a fit for you, and you for them. You/they will know fairly soon, the rule/constitution is important to be sure, but the “spirit” of the group is perhaps even more important.

I am aware of the “spirit” of several (more than 5) OCDS groups and can assure you they are as different as people. While still trying to be the same, but God doesn’t use a cookie cutter does He.

You’ll only know if the shoe fits by trying it on and walking in it, it doesn’t matter what the box says.
 
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Leo44:
I am aware of the “spirit” of several (more than 5) OCDS groups and can assure you they are as different as people. While still trying to be the same, but God doesn’t use a cookie cutter does He.
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Excellent point!

Peace,
Jen
 
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springbreeze:
I don’t wish to engage in a competition between whether O’Carm is worse than OCD.
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Forgive me for raising the question in a way that might have looked like a “who’s who”.

I guess that OC is to OCD as the Franciscans are to Capuchins: same rule, different emphases. And thinking about the numerous orders which use St. Benedict’s rule!

So, and here I go again :), what does OCD emphasize differently from OC?
 
OCDS formation would rely on and study Carmelite writings we would not study a Thomas Merton or some other non Carmelite, I am using Thomas Merton only as an example. Now having said this again there could be a community somewhere that does use non Carmelite writings but that would not be the norm nor would it be proper according to the constitution. There are groups that have long established formation probrams and I’m sure they will want to keep them in spite of new norms. But this is the short answer from what I know.
 
I asked God to guide me in which order to join… The poverty in spirit thread really started to get me thinking. I understand that so well. From the bottom of my soul. Poverty in spirit is a charism of the Franciscans. Since I feel more at home with this, I started to question. Should I join the Carmelites? They are very focused on prayer but there are other saints that are mystics that are part of other groups. Carmelites may have the market on contemplative prayer but God doesn’t just go to Carmelites.

So…After praying this this morning I went to church and found no answer. When I got home and opened up the local newspaper, on the front page was
Code: 
                                  Sancta Clara
                                  Life in Prayer
I believe God answered me! He is showing me that there is prayer, the type of prayer that I am interested in right here in my town. In the article they say they are contemplative. If you would like to read entire article, which has a 2 page article attached with pictures, you can read it here. It even talkks about how to become a nun! Not that I can but, can you believe this is in the paper?

cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=207908&r=3&Category=11

Peace,
Jen
 
Hello, Jen,

I tried your link, but one has to be registered in order to read it. You sound excited about this, and it may indeed be God’s leading for you.

This might be a good place to review the profile of a Secular Carmelite found here in its fullness:

ocdswashprov.org/NewsRome/ProfileOCDS.htm
The fourth element of the description is “who makes the commitment to the Order”. There are so many committed Catholics who are devoted to Mary and even experts in Saint Teresa, Saint John of the Cross, or one of our saints, who do not have the vocation to the Secular Order. These people may be contemplatives or even hermits, who spend hours in prayer and study each day, but do not have the vocation to be a Carmelite.

What is the element that differentiates these people from those called to follow Christ more closely as Secular Carmelites?

It is not the spirituality, nor the study, nor the devotion to Mary. Simply put, the Secular Carmelite is moved to commit himself or herself to the Order and to the Church. This commitment, in the form of the Promises, is an ecclesial event and an event of the Order in addition to being an event in the life of the person who makes the Promises. In a certain sense, remembering always the person’s context of family, work and responsibilities that are involved in his/her life, the person who commits him/herself, becomes characterized as a Carmelite.
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Listen to your heart in these words of yours, “From the bottom of my soul. Poverty in spirit is a charism of the Franciscans. Since I feel more at home with this, I started to question. Should I join the Carmelites?”

You may indeed love Mary, St. Therese, and find an attraction to the rule, but it is ultimately the community where your spirit will be formed according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Keep an eye on the “feeling more at home” that resides within you, and test all things. There is plenty of time to recognize whether or not your spirit “fits” with the other members of this Santa Clara group.

God bless you, and we give Him praise for leading you there!
 
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