Secular discussion about evolution

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I haven’t hijacked my own threads. I just show you evolution has no scientific base. It started as non-science and still is non-science.If I had as “much” faith as Darwin, I would have express evolution this way, “some people come from apes, some people are directly created by God, if you believe you come from ape then you come from ape, if you believe you’re directly created by God then you’re directly created by God”
Do you envy me my ancestors were directly created by God while yours were a pair of monkeys(eh non-human apes, sorry:D )?
 
abc << I haven’t hijacked my own threads. I just show you evolution has no scientific base. >>

You’ve hijacked my threads, I’ve hijacked your threads, you’ve hijacked your own threads, I’ve hijacked my own threads. Let’s call it even.

EVIDENCE FOR MACROEVOLUTION

It’s not going away anytime soon, and it only gets better every year. :rolleyes:

Bats and humans, humans and bats, created from scratch 6000 to 10000 years ago. I want name of author, name of journal, and publication date for those claims so I can look them up. :whacky:

Thank you. I shall wait patiently for your scientific evidence for bats and humans from thin air. You bring me that scientific evidence. This should be easy! :dancing:

And another wonderful evolution thread for the archives. Put a cork in this thread, she’s done. :eek:

Phil P
 
PhilVaz said:
<< Baltimore Catechism teach earth is ~7000 years old. >>

The Baltimore Catechism? I took you to be a young dude, you remember the Baltimore Catechism?

Baltimore Catechism is not a scientific source, but I doubt that it endorsed a 7000 year old earth in the 20th century. In the 16th century maybe but not 20th century.

We now know the earth is 4.5 billion years old and the Catechism of the Catholic Church endorses this when it endorses modern science in paragraphs 159 and 283-284. Oops we have a contradiction. So much for the Baltimore Catechism. As well I’ve quoted Pius XII, John Paul II, and Ratzinger / Benedict endorsing an old earth of billions of years old. Sorry.

Now what about those bats and humans appearing out of thin air? You have any science to back that up? Not to beat a dead bat… :confused:

Phil P

Baltimore Catechism is written at the end of 19th century
modern science can’t determine the age of earth for sure. There’s still on-going debate about it.
Pius XII, JP II and B XVI never say they support the notion of earth is 4.5 billion years old. I guess they haven’t even said they support evolution theory personally.

all these is to show your lack of scientific attitude.
 
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PhilVaz:
abc << I haven’t hijacked my own threads. I just show you evolution has no scientific base. >>

You’ve hijacked my threads, I’ve hijacked your threads, you’ve hijacked your own threads, I’ve hijacked my own threads. Let’s call it even.

EVIDENCE FOR MACROEVOLUTION
I’ve read it and to paraphrase you, it’s evolution kookiness or kookiness evolution.
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PhilVaz:
Bats and humans, humans and bats, created from scratch 6000 to 10000 years ago. I want name of author, name of journal, and publication date for those claims so I can look them up. :whacky:
I’ve given you the link. now if you don’t like it, that’s your problem.
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PhilVaz:
Thank you. I shall wait patiently for your scientific evidence for bats and humans from thin air. You bring me that scientific evidence. This should be easy! :dancing:
I don’t need show you anything. you just deny all evidence by ad-hominem attacks
 
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abcdefg:
Evolution “theory” is a secular threat to faith
Your faith must be pretty weak if you feel threatened by “evolution theory”.
 
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thistle:
Your faith must be pretty weak if you feel threatened by “evolution theory”.
Your faith is even weaker when you don’t even know it’s already weakened.

No discussion of the sincerity of each other’s faith. it’s against rules.
 
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abcdefg:
Your faith is even weaker when you don’t even know it’s already weakened.

No discussion of the sincerity of each other’s faith. it’s against rules.
I assure you my faith is strong and something like evolution has no negative impact on it at all.
I note that you started this thread and told people not to discuss God and to keep the thread secular but you went back to the same ranting you did in all the other threads about this subject.
I admire the patience of Phil especially, and other posters who have provided you with the scientific evidence you asked for but instead of engaging them in a rational discussion and coming up with argumants of substance to try to refute the evidence you simply say it is false, with nothing to back up your statement.
I also think you owe Phil an apology. I think it is despicable of you to imply he is calling Catholicism a bad religion.
 
Even if I wouldn’t post in this thread in the future, evolutionists would reveal how scientific themselves are by calling creationism “kookiness” , yoong earth theory “bad religion”, BC written in the 15th century and those none existant words suggesting popes support evolution personally.

Is the art of deception and manipulation science? I guess so.
 
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abcdefg:
Even if I wouldn’t post in this thread in the future, evolutionists would reveal how scientific themselves are by calling creationism “kookiness” , yoong earth theory “bad religion”, BC written in the 15th century and those none existant words suggesting popes support evolution.

Is the art of deception and manipulation science? I guess so.
While calling some ideas “kooky” may not be the nicest thing in the world, there are some ideas that, in all charity, are not even wrong.

There are lots of ideas, notions, and opinions out there. It is impossible (and unwise) to give each and every one the same amount of credence. Science offers a framework for filtering ideas. It is not about fairness or giving everyone equal time it is exactly about separating the probable from the possible from the kooky.

Whether you care for it or not evolution currently meets the burden of being supported by the preponderance of the evidence.
It is the backbone of modern biology and everything from the drugs you take to the gene therapies that will prolong your life are based upon it.
 
abc << modern science can’t determine the age of earth for sure. There’s still on-going debate about it. >>

There is no debate that the earth is 4.5 to 4.6 billion years old. That’s been well established since the 1950s. The standard figure is given by Dalrymple here:

“We now know, to within 1% or better and from a variety of evidence, that the age of the Earth-Moon-meteorite system is about 4.51 - 4.55 Ga [billions of years old].” (G. Brent Dalrymple, from “The Age of the Earth in the Twentieth Century: A Problem (Mostly) Solved” in The Age of the Earth From 4004 BC to AD 2002 edited by C.L.E. Lewis and S.J. Knell [Geological Society, 2001], page 219)

abc << Pius XII, JP II and B XVI never say they support the notion of earth is 4.5 billion years old. I guess they haven’t even said they support evolution theory personally. >>

Unfortunately for you, everything I say can be backed up.

JOHN PAUL II quoting PIUS XII: "Thirty years ago, on 22 November 1951, my predecessor Pope Pius XII, speaking about the problem of the origin of the universe at the Study Week on the subject of microseisms organized by the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, expressed himself as follows: 'In vain would one expect a reply from the sciences of nature, which on the contrary frankly declare that they find themselves faced by an insoluble enigma. It is equally certain that the human mind versed in philosophical meditation penetrates the problem more deeply. One cannot deny that a mind which is enlightened and enriched by modern scientific knowledge and which calmly considers this problem is led to break the circle of matter which is totally independent and autonomous – as being either uncreated or having created itself – and to rise to a creating Mind. With the same clear and critical gaze with which it examines and judges the facts, it discerns and recognizes there the work of creative Omnipotence, whose strength raised up by the powerful fiat uttered billions of years ago by the creating Mind, has spread through the universe, calling into existence, in a gesture of generous love, matter teeming with energy’ " ( Pope John Paul II, 10/3/1981 to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, “Cosmology and Fundamental Physics”)

That takes care of Pius XII and John Paul II. The universe is billions of years old according to them.

Cardinal Ratzinger who is now Benedict XVI has said in his commentary on Genesis: “…science has long since disposed of the concepts that we have just now heard – the idea of a world that is completely comprehensible in terms of space and time, and the idea that creation was built up piece by piece over the course of seven [or six] days. Instead of this we now face measurements that transcend all comprehension. Today we hear of the Big Bang, which happened billions of years ago and with which the universe began its expansion – an expansion that continues to occur without interruption. And it was not in neat succession that the stars were hung and the green of the fields created; it was rather in complex ways and over vast periods of time that the earth and the universe were constructed as we now know them.” (In The Beginning…)

The International Theological Commission endorsed by Cardinal Ratzinger in 2004 said the same, that the earth is 4.5 billion, and the universe about 15 billion years old. See paragraph 63 which I’ve quoted many many many times.

I am still looking for your scientific evidence that bats and humans were created from scratch (or bats from nothing, humans from “dust” I guess) a few thousand years ago.

Maybe this will help, a famous philosophical essay by Thomas Nagel

What Is It Like To Be A Bat?

Phil P
 
abc << Even if I wouldn’t post in this thread in the future, evolutionists would reveal how scientific themselves are by calling creationism “kookiness” , yoong earth theory “bad religion” >>

I’ll say this again, and again, and again.

The ICR “Bible-science” creationism of the 1960s, 70s, and 80s is kookiness and bad theology. That is the kookiness found in that Hugh Miller letter to Benedict XVI you linked to me at the Sungenis site. No question about that. Kookiness. I will say that again and again. Wait, others have said that too.

“…‘scientific’ Creationism fails to be a science not because of what it says…about a Divine Creator, but because of what it does not say about the natural world. The theory has no infrastructure, no ways of articulating its vague central idea, so that specific features of living forms can receive detailed explanations.” …“Creation ‘science’ is spurious science. To treat it as science we would have to overlook its intolerable vagueness. We would have to abandon large parts of well-established sciences (physics, chemistry, and geology, as well as evolutionary biology, are all candidates for revision). We would have to trade careful technical procedures for blind guesses, unified theories for motley collections of special techniques. Exceptional cases, whose careful pursuit has so often led to important turnings in the history of science, would be dismissed with a wave of the hand. Nor would there be any gains. There is not a single scientific question to which Creationism provides its own detailed problem solution. In short, Creationism could take a place among the sciences only if the substance and methods of contemporary science were mutilated to make room for a scientifically worthless doctrine.” (Philip Kitcher, Abusing Science: The Case Against Creationism [MIT Press, 1982], pages 126, 164)

Biologist Kenneth Miller writes:

“In order to defend God against the challenge they see from evolution, they have had to make Him into a schemer, a trickster, even a charlatan. Their version of God is one who intentionally plants misleading clues beneath our feet and in the heavens themselves. Their version of God is one who has filled the universe with so much bogus evidence that the tools of science can give us nothing more than a phony version of reality. In other words, their God has negated science by rigging the universe with fiction and deception. To embrace that God, we must reject science and worship deception itself…One can, of course, imagine a Creator who could have produced all of the illusions that the creationists claim to find in nature. In order to do so, we must simultaneously conclude that science can tell us nothing about nature, and that the Creator to whom many of us pray is inherently deceitful. Such so-called creation science, thoroughly analyzed, corrupts both science and religion, and it deserves a place in the intellectual wastebasket.” (Kenneth Miller, Finding Darwin’s God, page 80)

The Orthodox Christian Theodosius Dobzhansky concurs:

“One can suppose that the Creator saw fit to play deceitful tricks on geologists and biologists. He carefully arranged to have various rocks provided with isotope ratios just right to mislead us into thinking that certain rocks are 2 billion years old, others 2 million, which in fact they are only some 6,000 years old. This kind of pseudo-explanation is not very new. One of the early antievolutionists, P. H. Gosse, published a book entitled Omphalos (‘the Navel’). The gist of this amazing book is that Adam, though he had no mother, was created with a navel, and that fossils were placed by the Creator where we find them now – a deliberate act on His part, to give the appearance of great antiquity and geologic upheaveals. It is easy to see the fatal flaw in all such notions. They are blasphemies, accusing God of absurd deceitfulness. This is as revolting as it is uncalled for…Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts. As pointed out above, the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness.” (Dobzhansky, “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution”)

The Evidence for Macroevolution article I linked for you is mainstream science back by the peer-reviewed literature. There is no mainstream science or peer-reviewed literature that backs the kookiness of creationism. Kookiness, plain kookiness. Thank you and good night. :yawn:

Phil P
 
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abcdefg:
I
“Bats are specially created” is from one of your pals, not any scientist.
I don’t think you’ve ever met me, so I don’t think you know any of my pals. And most of my pals are scientists, none of whom think bats were specially created.
They can discuss how bats develop wings, but they can’t find any evidence.
Here is a brief lay-press review of how changes in the expression of a single gene are thought to have lead to some of the changes in the forelimb forming a bat wing out of a walking limb. The genetic record is pretty darn good evidence.
evolution works on the assumption God took no active role (breaking physic laws, performing miracles) .
ALL science works on the assumption that God isn’t breaking the rules. The rules that theistic scientists believe he wrote.
What happens when you go to a doctor? Does he say, “This medicine only works if God breaks the laws of physics”? Does a weather forecaster say, “It’s going to rain tomorrow, because God is going to break the laws of physics”?

Look, you don’t have to believe in evolution. But what you are writing on this board consists largely in misconceptions about science and evolution. You are battling against a false impression of what science and evolution say. You would be well served to learn a lot more about how biology and science in general works.
JRM
 
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abcdefg:
pumpkins share 75% of DNA with humans, remember?
Where did you get this number from? Plants and animals have some genes in common, but many genes are specific to their lineage, and I doubt that the overall similarity is anywhere near 75%.
in the end pumpkin and human share the same ancestor, and according to evolution “theory” it’s not wrong, as pumpkin and human has the same ancestor of lifeless chemicals
You are correct. Just as chimps and humans share a (somewhat recent) common ancestor, and humans and fish share a (more distant) common ancestor, humans and pumpkins share a (very distant) common ancestor.
{Discussing the possible fusion of Chromosome 2A and 2B to form human Chromosome 2}
What’s the chance of this mutation? and since there’s no mid ground of incomplete fusion. so once done. changing is immediate.
The chance isn’t that bad. Chromosomal fusions, deletions, and rearrangements happen with quite observable frequency in human populations.
JRM
 
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abcdefg:
evolution “theories” came out by assuming God took no role in the forming of human body.

there’s a difference, though. Mechanics generally aren’t theological. Evolution “theory” from the beginning tries to challage Traditional teaching of Creationism.
Okay, let’s take a much closer example that is quite theological.
Which of the following do you believe is true?
  1. God creates each human and gives them a soul.
  2. Humans are made by a process where one sperm (created by a random assortment of half of the father’s chromosomes, and only one of millions of sperm ejaculated that could fertilize the egg) fuses with one egg (created by a random assortment of half of the mother’s chromosomes), triggering a developmental process that produces a unique human that contains half of each parents DNA.
Personally, I believe both of these are true. My understanding of the mechanics of reproduction do not alter my belief that God creates each human being. Does the fact that I have different DNA than my sister’s but still half my fathers and half my mothers prove that God didn’t create me? No, but it suggests the biological mechanism by which God carried out the creation of my material body. Similarly, the fact that I have DNA closely related to chimps doesn’t prove that God didn’t create humans, but it suggests the biological mechanism by which he created the human body from an ape-like ancestor.
JRM
 
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PhilVaz:

Richard Dawkins has a chapter on bats and their “sonar” in his book The Blind Watchmaker.​

article from Science Daily

that states while the fossil evidence may be weak, the molecular biology evidence fills in some gaps about bat evolution.​

There is however good scientific evidence for human evolution​

I don’t have a problem, and Ratzinger / Benedict does not have a problem with human evolution.

Acoustic Engineers and Bird Alarm Calls
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.4.10A.B3.9912112245430.200386-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu

Schindewolf; Simpson on bats
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.10001222211190.17988-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu

Meaning of “evolution”?

legerdemain in the use of the word ‘evolution’
google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1132102419.915797.111840%40o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com
 
Jason Meyers:
What science can say are things like:
Bonobos and humans share significant portions of their DNA, including viral insertions indicative of common ancestry.
Dallas Willard: “science says nothing. It is not the kind of thing that can say anything. Only scientists say things…”
groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407260437.2d8959da%40posting.google.com

1996 Developmental Biology paper by Gilbert, Opitz, & Raff
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96.980602230744.671C-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
1993 Ernst Mayr, 1996 Gilbert, Opitz, & Raff, 1997 Boyce Rensberger
groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96A.980901001930.2980I-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu

ID + common descent: A Proposal
groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0404181835.d59cf7d%40posting.google.com
religious faith and common descent
groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0405051933.522f5d0e%40posting.google.com
1910s remarks by Caullery, Edmund B. Wilson, and Bateson on the idea of top-down unfolding/ [Bateson]“unpacking of an original complex which contained within itself the whole range of diversity which living things present”
groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0405161853.5f28f100%40posting.google.com
 
Jason Meyers:
The hominid fossil record shows gradual transitions in skull morphology between an ape-like ancestor to the modern human form.
“Many people think that fossils, almost by definition, are rare
and precious. (Some are, of course–the six specimens of
Archaeopteryx and our limited evidence of human ancestry,
for example.)”[Gould, Eight Little Piggies (1993), 275-6.]

“The main problem in reconstructing the origins of man is lack
of fossil evidence: all there is could be displayed on a
dinner-table.”[New Scientist (20 May 1982), 491. Cited in
Alan Hayward, Creation and Evolution (1985), 51, whose
endnote adds, “News item: ‘Equality in all things - even teeth.’
(Although this writer did not say so explicitly, he may have
been referring to pre-Homo specimens, not early human
remains.)”]

"Nutcracker man stood poised to join Neanderthal man, Java
man, Peking man (and the notorious Piltdown man), as one of
the leading characters in the popular saga of human evolution.
Then he slipped from view… its significance today seems to lie
more in the saga of scientific procedure than in the scientific
study of human evolution. This change of status is not unusual
in the study of fossil man; and each case is the inevitable
consequence of problems inherent to the science, problems

which perhaps deserve a little attention themselves.
Judged by the amount of evidence upon which it is based, the
study of fossil man (palaeoanthropology) hardly deserves to be
more than a sub-discipline of paleontology or anthropology.
The entire hominid collection known today would barely cover
a billiard table, but it has spawned a science because it is
distinguished by two factors which inflate its apparent relevance
far beyond its merits. First, the fossils hint at the ancestry of a

supremely self-important animal-- ourselves.
Second, the collection is so tantalisingly incomplete, and the
specimens themselves often so fragmentary and inconclusive,
that more can be said about what is missing than about what is
present. Hence the amazing quantity of literature on the subject.
Very few fossils indeed afford just one, incontrovertible
interpretation of their evolutionary significance. Most are
capable of supporting several interpretations." [author of
Missing Links (1981) John Reader, New Scientist (26
March 1981), 802.]

“Furthermore, since the meagre collection has accumulated so
slowly, the long gaps between discoveries have provided ample
time for investigators to form very definite notions of what
ought to be found next. Zinjanthropus boisei is a good
example of this phenomenon, but ever since Darwin’s work
inspired the notion that fossils linking modern man and extinct
ancestor would provide the most convincing proof of human
evolution, preconceptions have led evidence by the nose in the
study of fossil man.”[Reader, 802.]

“Darwin’s treatment of the process of ‘humanisation’ of the
extinct ape-like progenitor of man was his most intensive
imaginary reconstruction of an evolutionary trend, although
many particular points in the structural evolution of man had
been proposed by speculative evolutionists before him. Like all
evolutionary reconstructions, it rests heavily on plausibility
rather than evidence to command assent.”[Principal Scientific
Officer at the Agricultural Research Council Institute of Animal
Physiology at Babraham (near Cambridge) Jonathan Howard,
Darwin (1982), 63. This book is part of the “Past Masters”
series.]
 
“We are particularly pleased that our model of punctuated
equilibria has been used to reassess the evolution of the clade
most near to all our hearts–the peculiar pongid offshoot whose
only living representative is H. sapiens (see…). In no other
group, has the a priori assumption of gradualism been so
pervasive. It supported racial classifications to justify
imperialism in the nineteenth century, and it still regulates our
exalted view of our own estate.”
"Human evolution has been viewed as a ladder of progress.
Recent discoveries have discredited the notion of a single
lineage, Australopithecus africanus–_Homo

erectus_–Homo sapiens, with gradual increase in brain size
within each taxon. All new evidence points to a branching bush
with rapid origination and a subsequent stasis within taxa
(Eldredge and…)." “In any case, there is no direct evidence for
gradualism within any hominid taxon–A. africanus, A.
robustus
, A. boisei_, H. habilis, H. erectus, and even H.
sapiens
. Each species disappears looking much as it did at its
origin; admittedly ‘progressive’ trends result from the
differential survival of discrete taxa.”[G&E, Paleobiology
3:135 (1977).]

“Evolution above the species level is an essential part of
macrozoology, particularly with reference to human evolution.
Yet the techniques used for reconstruction of phylogenetic
relationships have, until recently, ranked among the most
subjective in the whole of zoology. In the past few years,
however, reappraisal of the methods used, reinforced by the
approaches developed for analysing molecular evolution, has
shown signs of a more scientific attitude. Lack of scientific
rigour in evolutionary reconstruction has been, if anything, more
apparent in the realm of human origins than elsewhere.”[Senior
Research Fellow at the Zoological Society of London Dr Robert
Martin, New Scientist (4 August 1977), 284.]

“Bojrn Kurten suggests in Not from the Apes (yet another
popular book on human origins) that the hominid line can be
traced back to Oligocene times, some 35 million years ago. We
have here another situation where the resolving power of
available techniques and material (semi-subjective assessment
of isolated teeth and jaw fragments) leaves room for a
considerable degree of personal opinion. It is perfectly possible
that the supposed hominid status of Ramapithecus will prove
to be a product of wishful thinking in the light of more
substantially fossil discoveries. On the other hand, it is also
possible that further fossil evidence will confirm
Ramapithecus as a hominid. As yet, there is no basis for a
definite statement either way. So even the fossil evidence on
which theories depend is open to subjective
interpretation.”[Martin, 285.]

“It was an easy mistake to make, since only one genus of horse
is left today, Equus. [Othniel C.] Marsh arranged his [horse
series] fossils to ‘lead up’ to the one surviving species, blithely
ignoring many inconsistencies and any contradictory evidence.
Ironically, his famous reconstruction of horse evolution was
copied by anthropologists. They, too, thought they saw a
straight-line lineage ‘leading up’ to the sole surviving species of
a once-varied group: Homo sapiens.”[Richard Milner, The
Encyclopedia of Evolution
(1990), 222. Foreword by Gould.]

the fraud known as the fossil horse series
google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96A.980816003836.28616B-100000%40umbc9.umbc.edu
 
abcdefg said:
1) fossils should be real, however results from the analysis of the fossil are false. methods to determine the age of fossil, rock are faulty
catholicintl.com/noncatholicissues/letterbxvi.htm
  1. as this is a Catholic site. I can say if there’s one aspect of the formation of human has no direct intervention from God, you can worship whoever has control. be it another deity or chaos theory etc
seems like I share the same opinion with you. If Evolution is all there is, then who needs God? All this talk about theistic creationism, or intelligent design, or whatever you can name, are just feeble attempts to rescue creation while admitting evolution.
I think this is poor and no matter how smartly you go about it (like Phil is trying to do), it is just a bogus. Last resort, last attempt for a rescue.
Saying that God creates using evolution is a nonsense statement clearly
 
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tomaskovarik:
If Evolution is all there is, then who needs God? All this talk about theistic creationism, or intelligent design, or whatever you can name, are just feeble attempts to rescue creation while admitting evolution.

Saying that God creates using evolution is a nonsense statement clearly
If fertilization is all there is, then who needs God? Do you agree that there is a biological aspect to our individual creation in addition to the spiritual aspect provided by God? After all, Jeremiah refers to God creating in the womb, and does not say anything about developmental biology or alignment of chromosomes along the metaphase plate or sperm digesting away the protein coating outside the egg or BMP2b triggering formation of your bones or …
So, if God can create us each while using the mechanisms understood as developmental biology and yet play a role in the creating by imbuing that physical body with a soul, what is the problem of God creating our species using the mechanisms understood as evolution and then imbuing that species with a soul?
JRM
 
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