Secular Education vs. Spiritual/Christian Education

[10gr8kids]

Is our society’s emphasis on the importance of education upside down? As Christians in America we value our freedoms. No one would ever try to force parents to give their children a Christian education. Yet, many Christians would be happy if home-schooling had much more oversight and more regulations. I understand that education is very important for individuals and society as a whole, but as a Christian I know the value of a Christian education is even more important for individuals and society. If we have freedom to raise out children without God, shouldn’t we have freedom to raise our children without a secular education? Why are many Christians more upset that children aren’t learning about evolution than they are that children are not learning about God? Which will have more of an impact on our eternal soul?

 

[JackieMom]

I’m not sure what you mean. Parents do have the right to provide a Christian education via a private school or home education, or alternatively by utilizing a secular school for a traditional education and supplementing with religion in the home and through an RE program.

Are you trying to argue that parents should have the right to withhold a proper education from their children and provide religious instruction exclusively?

 

[EasterJoy]

We are not in the 1400s, when a Christian could fulfill their duties to God even though they knew relatively little about the world outside their door. Why? Because today’s Christian, by virtue of the duties invested upon him or her by the democratic political climate, is by necessity a voter and a contributor to public discourse. If you do not know what your opponents know and how they have been taught, how can you understand the nature of their errors in thinking? How can you learn what there is to be learned from them? How can you fulfill your duties as a political decision-maker? It is not as if the secular world were bereft of all information needed to live the Christian life well. Our children must be ready to live in the secular world, even though they are not of the secular world. Otherwise their parents fail in their preparation to live the Christian life.

 

[RedSparklyShoes]

I’m not sure which home schooling families you’ve talked to but all the ones I know would NOT want more regulation and oversight. In fact they want much less regulation.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m not sure which home schooling families you’ve talked to but all the ones I know would NOT want more regulation and oversight. In fact they want much less regulation.

There may be some somewhere who want more evidence in the public record that the education they are providing is on par with students from accredited schools who are competing with their children for scholarships to college. That requires paperwork and more evidence of full adherence to outside standards.

 

[10gr8kids]

I’m not sure which home schooling families you’ve talked to but all the ones I know would NOT want more regulation and oversight. In fact they want much less regulation.

I didn’t mean home-school families want more oversight. Just some people in general.

 

[JackieMom]

I’m not sure which home schooling families you’ve talked to but all the ones I know would NOT want more regulation and oversight. In fact they want much less regulation.

In California, some families that teach an actual curriculum want more oversight because there is literally none here. Some parents ascribe to radical philosophies that entail letting their children do whatever they want, and teach zero curriculum. It is a type of “radical unschooling.” It makes actual home educators look bad when the most vociferous “homeschoolers” believe that children can absorb all they need to know by doing whatever they want without oversight. I personally know one family that believes if a child wants to play video games for ten hours a day, that’s what he should do. Their kids are still not reading at 7, 9 and 10 years old and they are not concerned because “they’ll read eventually.”

The homeschoolers that work hard to actually give their kids a quality education find this type of “unschooling” to be an irresponsible sham.

 

[10gr8kids]

I’m not trying to say math, science, English, history, etc. are not important, and I agree the more educated we are the better our ability to help those around us. Yes, we are free to educate our children in our faith. Why though, are some Christians bothered more by a child not having a secular education than a Christian education?

Scenerio 1: An uneducated field worker that loves God and his fellow man. Prays for those in need and gives what he can to those less fortunate.

Scenario 2: An educated doctor/lawyer that makes a lot of money and spends it on his own selfish desires.

Scenario 3: A highly educated person who gives money to those less fortunate but never concerns himself/herself with prayer or God.

Scenario 4: A highly educated person who uses his gifts God has given him to help mankind, spends time with God in prayer, and genuinely loves his fellowman.

Scenario 4 is by far the best goal to have. But wouldn’t Scenerio 1 be better than 2 or 3? As Christians do we believe that learning about God’s divine truths are more important than science and math? I know it doesn’t have to be one or the other, but I place math above art, shouldn’t I place God above math?

If I don’t explain myself well, it’s because I’m a product of public schools. Lol. Just kidding.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m not trying to say math, science, English, history, etc. are not important, and I agree the more educated we are the better our ability to help those around us. Yes, we are free to educate our children in our faith. Why though, are some Christians bothered more by a child not having a secular education than a Christian education?

Scenerio 1: An uneducated field worker that loves God and his fellow man. Prays for those in need and gives what he can to those less fortunate.

Scenario 2: An educated doctor/lawyer that makes a lot of money and spends it on his own selfish desires.

Scenario 3: A highly educated person who gives money to those less fortunate but never concerns himself/herself with prayer or God.

Scenario 4: A highly educated person who uses his gifts God has given him to help mankind, spends time with God in prayer, and genuinely loves his fellowman.

Scenario 4 is by far the best goal to have. But wouldn’t Scenerio 1 be better than 2 or 3? As Christians do we believe that learning about God’s divine truths are more important than science and math? I know it doesn’t have to be one or the other, but I place math above art, shouldn’t I place God above math?

If I don’t explain myself well, it’s because I’m a product of public schools. Lol. Just kidding.

This is more about the value of proof rather than the value of the education itself.

The only person we ever have to prove that we have a Catholic education is the bishop when we present ourselves as properly disposed for confirmation. There are many times, however, when we are denied opportunities if we cannot prove the strength of our secular education. Hence the difference in administrative work…

 

[10gr8kids]

This is more about the value of proof rather than the value of the education itself.

The only person we ever have to prove that we have a Catholic education is the bishop when we present ourselves as properly disposed for confirmation. There are many times, however, when we are denied opportunities if we cannot prove the strength of our secular education. Hence the difference in administrative work…

A strong secular education is definitely more important for this world. What is more important for the next?

Some Christians are bothered by the fact some homeschoolers are taught creation science instead of evolution. It seems like we should be more concerned about our children being taught that SS “marriage” is just as good as traditional marriage, or that PP is a great organization that just wants to help women.

 

[JackieMom]

A strong secular education is definitely more important for this world. What is more important for the next?

Some Christians are bothered by the fact some homeschoolers are taught creation science instead of evolution. It seems like we should be more concerned about our children being taught that SS “marriage” is just as good as traditional marriage, or that PP is a great organization that just wants to help women.

In the United States, both types of education are freely available, so there is really no need to debate “one or the other.”

I have no problem with someone telling my kids that SS marriage is valid, or that Planned Parenthood is okay, or that the world is flat or that Communism is a great model of government. I simply refute it and explain our family’s correct position. They do need to learn that other people have very different perspectives, and how to defend theirs.

 

[10gr8kids]

In the United States, both types of education are freely available, so there is really no need to debate “one or the other.”

I have no problem with someone telling my kids that SS marriage is valid, or that Planned Parenthood is okay, or that the world is flat or that Communism is a great model of government. I simply refute it and explain our family’s correct position. They do need to learn that other people have very different perspectives, and how to defend theirs.

Very true, they do need to learn other views and how to defend their own beliefs. We may disagree on how best to do that.
However, I don’t think I’ve done a good job explaining my thoughts. Simply, do many Christians place a higher value on secular ed. than Christian education? From a secular stand I know it doesn’t have to be one or the other, that is why I am emphasizing Christians. Have you ever heard a Christian say to their children, “You need to go to school and get a good education,” then come Wednesday night and it’s time for RE and the game or some other activity takes precedent?

There are many examples when it seems we put more importance on secular education than a Christian education.

 

[JackieMom]

Very true, they do need to learn other views and how to defend their own beliefs. We may disagree on how best to do that.
However, I don’t think I’ve done a good job explaining my thoughts. Simply, do many Christians place a higher value on secular ed. than Christian education? From a secular stand I know it doesn’t have to be one or the other, that is why I am emphasizing Christians. Have you ever heard a Christian say to their children, “You need to go to school and get a good education,” then come Wednesday night and it’s time for RE and the game or some other activity takes precedent?

There are many examples when it seems we put more importance on secular education than a Christian education.

I guess that depends on the parents’ devotion. Some parents aren’t very invested in their kids’ educations, either, so I think it’s family by family. Both are VERY important to us.
I would let my kids miss RE for the same reasons I’d let them miss school, although, my kids are in Catholic school so they are one and the same for us : )

 

[10gr8kids]

I guess that depends on the parents’ devotion. Some parents aren’t very invested in their kids’ educations, either, so I think it’s family by family. Both are VERY important to us.
I would let my kids miss RE for the same reasons I’d let them miss school, although, my kids are in Catholic school so they are one and the same for us : )

Maybe a case could be made that they are of equal importance, since both are needed for us to become the best servants for God that we can be. I still lean towards RE being a higher priority. While there are certainly families that place teaching Christian values as a high priorty there seems to be more that place it well below a secular education. It seems like something we as Christians should be concerned about. Just my observation and maybe I’m way off.

 

[manualman]

I have no problem with someone telling my kids that SS marriage is valid, or that Planned Parenthood is okay, or that the world is flat or that Communism is a great model of government. I simply refute it and explain our family’s correct position. They do need to learn that other people have very different perspectives, and how to defend theirs.

I see a lot of this attitude and I either don’t understand it or it’s incredibly naive. Humans are fundamentally influenced by their community. Parents are certainly major influences, but you’re kidding yourself if you think that you can trump all other comers combined.

Consider the billions that companies spend every year on several seconds of sound and music on your TV commercials. Are those really MORE effective than the messages kids get in government schools? I think not. Not by a long shot.

To use your example, SS marriage isn’t gaining such rapid and widespread support because of its actual merits. It’s enjoying a comprehensive media/elite/celebrity PUSH that works very well. Both adults and children are influenced profoundly by their surroundings. It is possible to resist overwhelming cultural influences, but it takes unusual levels of virtue. Why be satisfied to allow those with contrary beliefs to ours to control the levers of power in society?

Government run schools are and have always been opposed to catholic values and worldview. A hundred years ago they were more obvious about it, so our impoverished forefathers responded by building the greatest private educational system Earth has even seen. Fast forward to today and the richest catholics in history can’t manage to maintain and keep open those schools because we don’t believe they have any real value anymore. We somehow convince ourselves that we can be islands of virtue even in the swamp of the larger culture. But more often than not, it doesn’t work. The evidence is right there on your soda can. Marketing and subtle pressures work (you don’t have a generic pop in front of you: admit it.)

 

[EasterJoy]

A strong secular education is definitely more important for this world. What is more important for the next?

Some Christians are bothered by the fact some homeschoolers are taught creation science instead of evolution. It seems like we should be more concerned about our children being taught that SS “marriage” is just as good as traditional marriage, or that PP is a great organization that just wants to help women.

You had better at least teach them, before they go out into the world, what Planned Parenthood and civil same-sex “marriage” are. Right now, we’re not in the next world, and Catholics cannot be naïve about what is being taught out there. Their duty before Heaven right now is in this world, and ignorance will make it more difficult to do it.

I, for instance, cannot imagine that a homeschooler would not teach what the theory of evolution says, including what the Church says about it (a nuanced teaching: see Communion and Stewardship, 62-70) and what scientific evidence lies in favor and against the theory. It would be a disservice to send your child out into that arena without any background about why they think what they think or what it has to do with salvation history!!

IOW, teaching these topics is not the same as teaching them as a secular humanist or even a strict non-Christian deist would teach them.

 

[10gr8kids]

You had better at least teach them, before they go out into the world, what Planned Parenthood and civil same-sex “marriage” are. Right now, we’re not in the next world, and Catholics cannot be naïve about what is being taught out there. Their duty before Heaven right now is in this world, and ignorance will make it more difficult to do it.

I, for instance, cannot imagine that a homeschooler would not teach what the theory of evolution says, including what the Church says about it (a nuanced teaching: see Communion and Stewardship, 62-70) and what scientific evidence lies in favor and against the theory. It would be a disservice to send your child out into that arena without any background about why they think what they think or what it has to do with salvation history!!

IOW, teaching these topics is not the same as teaching them as a secular humanist or even a strict non-Christian deist would teach them.

I couldn’t agree with you more. My children are 9 and 10 years old and have known what abortion is since they were 4 and 5. They know about SS “marriage”, as much as I feel is appropriate for their age. They probably know more about politics than most adults. We took them to the movies with us to see October Baby and 2016 Obamas America. As for evolution vs creation theory, we have discussed both with the emphasis on “God created the world.” How He created it is not an issue for me. They can decide if it’s an issue for them as they learn more.

I do not believe in keeping them sheltered from the secular world, but I do want to influence how they view it. My OP was not meant to be against a secular education, but about what is our highest priority, secular values or Christian values.

 

[JackieMom]

I see a lot of this attitude and I either don’t understand it or it’s incredibly naive. Humans are fundamentally influenced by their community. Parents are certainly major influences, but you’re kidding yourself if you think that you can trump all other comers combined.

Consider the billions that companies spend every year on several seconds of sound and music on your TV commercials. Are those really MORE effective than the messages kids get in government schools? I think not. Not by a long shot.

To use your example, SS marriage isn’t gaining such rapid and widespread support because of its actual merits. It’s enjoying a comprehensive media/elite/celebrity PUSH that works very well. Both adults and children are influenced profoundly by their surroundings. It is possible to resist overwhelming cultural influences, but it takes unusual levels of virtue. Why be satisfied to allow those with contrary beliefs to ours to control the levers of power in society?

Government run schools are and have always been opposed to catholic values and worldview. A hundred years ago they were more obvious about it, so our impoverished forefathers responded by building the greatest private educational system Earth has even seen. Fast forward to today and the richest catholics in history can’t manage to maintain and keep open those schools because we don’t believe they have any real value anymore. We somehow convince ourselves that we can be islands of virtue even in the swamp of the larger culture. But more often than not, it doesn’t work. The evidence is right there on your soda can. Marketing and subtle pressures work (you don’t have a generic pop in front of you: admit it.)

I don’t drink soda, but I do have a bottle of store-brand water in front of me.

Since I can’t shelter my kids forever from secular values, I don’t try. I use them as teaching moments. I explain why sometimes they are wrong or immoral and what our family believes instead. I have (almost) five kids and this hasn’t been a problem. Eventually they will be in the world on their own and will have to decide what to believe, but for now they are good Catholic kids. My children go to a Catholic school, so I don’t worry that they’re learning subversive stuff there - but I went to a public school in the 80s and 90s and never learned subversive stuff either

 

[EasterJoy]

I couldn’t agree with you more. My children are 9 and 10 years old and have known what abortion is since they were 4 and 5. They know about SS “marriage”, as much as I feel is appropriate for their age. They probably know more about politics than most adults. We took them to the movies with us to see October Baby and 2016 Obamas America. As for evolution vs creation theory, we have discussed both with the emphasis on “God created the world.” How He created it is not an issue for me. They can decide if it’s an issue for them as they learn more.

I do not believe in keeping them sheltered from the secular world, but I do want to influence how they view it. My OP was not meant to be against a secular education, but about what is our highest priority, secular values or Christian values.

I got a question like this from our kids’ parish school: That is, which is more important, academics or faith formation? I wrote in that academic subjects had better include faith formation and faith formation had better be academic, because one without the other does not even make sense. You can’t educate a child well with a model that puts religious truth in a box apart from every other kind of truth. That division itself would be a kind of a lie, don’t you think?

 

[10gr8kids]

I got a question like this from our kids’ parish school: That is, which is more important, academics or faith formation? I wrote in that academic subjects had better include faith formation and faith formation had better be academic, because one without the other does not even make sense. You can’t educate a child well with a model that puts religious truth in a box apart from every other kind of truth. That division itself would be a kind of a lie, don’t you think?

As I said in an earlier post, I can see an argument where they are both equally important. They are both needed to become the best Christian we can be. However, I still think faith should be placed above secular Ed. It has been my observation that many Christians place more of an emphasis on their child’s secular education than their RE. I live in a pretty conservative area and have still noticed this trend. It surprises me that others don’t seem to see it. I think it is one reason our country has become so secularized.