Secular history for Jesus

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dcharlesworth

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I have been speaking with few atheists as of late, and posed the question of who Jesus was in their opinion.

I was shocked to find that the first atheist said that the fact that Jesus was alive is debatable at best. This is obviously not the case, however have you any knowledge of good historical perspectives from secular historians? Thanks.
 
I like watching the various programs presented on the History Channel. They often cite the Works of Josephus.
 
the historical Jesus is not debated by serious historians, he is one of the most attested 1st century personages. It always astounds me that those who begin their attacks with denial of the human historical existance of Jesus invariable assume without question that Mohammed and the Buddha existed, even if they reject their belief systems. These same persons also are the first to applaud absurdities like DaVinci Code as fact. Once you embark on a deliberate atheistic world view, you are obliged to relinquish logical thinking, at least that is my experience in discussion with self-identified atheists.
 
puzzleannie said:
the historical Jesus is not debated by serious historians, he is one of the most attested 1st century personages. It always astounds me that those who begin their attacks with denial of the human historical existance of Jesus invariable assume without question that Mohammed and the Buddha existed, even if they reject their belief systems. These same persons also are the first to applaud absurdities like DaVinci Code as fact. Once you embark on a deliberate atheistic world view, you are obliged to relinquish logical thinking, at least that is my experience in discussion with self-identified atheists.
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From what I have observed, I would side with you completely. I believe that an atheist perspective is a moral choice, instead of an intellectual one.

I did pose it to him if he thought that the historical account of Julius Caesar was also a fictitious tale… He didn’t have a lot to say. Relatively speaking, Jesus was not that long ago, we have reliable historical accounts dating back well before his time.
 
I had a college student, formerly Catholic, who came to me proudly to announce he had decided to become atheist. he also used the “no historical Jesus” argument. When I challenged him to prove the existence of Julius Caesar he quoted from Shakespeare’s play, having no evidence he could site from actual primary sources. We had an interesting discussion on historical sources and their validity (since he was my student in a graduate level history forum this was pertinent).

our discussion had actually begun with him mocking me for praying the rosary as I walked around the campus. He and his girlfriend were both big into incense, candles and–wait for it–crystals, yet my crystal rosary was some superstitious relic.
 
puzzleannie said:
I had a college student, formerly Catholic, who came to me proudly to announce he had decided to become atheist. he also used the “no historical Jesus” argument. When I challenged him to prove the existence of Julius Caesar he quoted from Shakespeare’s play, having no evidence he could site from actual primary sources.
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Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres…

… so begins Caesar’s Commentarii de Bello Gallico. In other words, Julius Caesar wrote a book, which is pretty good evidence that he existed. He wrote other commentaries on his own life as well.

Of course there is plenty of evidence that Julius Caesar existed. Cicero, a contemporary political rival of Caesar, talks about him quite a bit in his letters. Sallust, a contemporary historian, wrote quite a bit about him as well. We even have his image on coins from the period.

It’s unfortunate that the student you mentioned was so poorly educated that he was unaware of Julius Caesar’s Commentaries.

On the other hand, Josephus is the only secular source for Jesus’ existence. And there are only two passages in there. In one, there is a very brief reference to Jesus being James brother. The second is the more famous Testimonium Flavianum.

The Testimonium Flavianum has been controversial at times, but the controversy has died down. There are two schools of thought on it: (1) it is a complete forgery and (2) Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but it has suffered from repeated interpolations and modifications over the centuries. Even the old Catholic Encyclopedia says that the passage has suffered from numerous changes over the centuries.
 
Here are collateral 1st century sources that testify that Jesus was put to death.

In the “Annals” written by Roman historian Tacitus, in Book XV, Chapter 44 we read “*Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius.” *Roman historian Josephus also wrote about the death and Resurrection of Jesus. Even Satan says that Jesus died on the cross. Also, the Roman Historian Seutonius wrote in his work “Life of the Emperor Claudius” the following about Christians: “*and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.” *The Roman historian Pliny wrote about Jesus’ death in Book X of his Epistles. Julius Africanus, quoting Thallus another Roman historian, who wrote in about 52 A.D. about the miraculas happenings the day the Son of God was killed. He wrote: “On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down”.
 
dcharlesworth said:
From what I have observed, I would side with you completely. I believe that an atheist perspective is a moral choice, instead of an intellectual one.

I did pose it to him if he thought that the historical account of Julius Caesar was also a fictitious tale… He didn’t have a lot to say. Relatively speaking, Jesus was not that long ago, we have reliable historical accounts dating back well before his time.
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Hi

Yes, there was a Son of Man called JesusYeshuaIssa, but one who is exaggerated to be one in three, and three in one who ascended to heaven, in my opinion, is just mythical; instead of dieing a natural death in Kashmir, India as per historical evidences.

Thanks

Thanks
 
janman55 said:
Here are collateral 1st century sources that testify that Jesus was put to death.

In the “Annals” written by Roman historian Tacitus, in Book XV, Chapter 44 we read “*Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius.” *Roman historian Josephus also wrote about the death and Resurrection of Jesus. Even Satan says that Jesus died on the cross. Also, the Roman Historian Seutonius wrote in his work “Life of the Emperor Claudius” the following about Christians: “*and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.” *The Roman historian Pliny wrote about Jesus’ death in Book X of his Epistles. Julius Africanus, quoting Thallus another Roman historian, who wrote in about 52 A.D. about the miraculas happenings the day the Son of God was killed. He wrote: “On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down”.
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My time is limited, so this will be a quick response for now. There are a couple of things here:

The quote from Tacitus is more evidence that Christians existed than that Jesus existed, but it is the strongest evidence for the historal Jesus of all the sources you mention.

Suetonius was not a contemporary of Jesus. He was born over 30 years after Jesus died. The work in question, Lives of the Twelve Caesars was written about 90 years after the death of Jesus. In any case, the events described in the passage take place 20 years after the death of Jesus.

As for the quote from Thallus, the actual work doesn’t exist anymore. The quote is actually from Julius Africanus, a 3rd century Christian, who says he is quoting Thallus. The accuracy of the quote obviously cannot be determined.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Yes, there was a Son of Man called JesusYeshuaIssa, but one who is exaggerated to be one in three, and three in one who ascended to heaven, in my opinion, is just mythical; instead of dieing a natural death in Kashmir, India as per historical evidences.

Thanks

Thanks
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Hello paarsurrey
Although you have been asked many times to provide historical evidence, we are still waiting for it.
Roman Tacitus The Roman historian Tacitus wrote concerning the Great Fire of Rome, in book 15, chapter 44 of his Annals (c. 116) about Jesus that Christians worshiped.
Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian writes about Jesus
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18)
Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
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The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus’ crucifixion on the eve of Passover, and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
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Code: 
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them.
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Nonbiblical proof
 
Benedictus said:
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres…

… so begins Caesar’s Commentarii de Bello Gallico. In other words, Julius Caesar wrote a book, which is pretty good evidence that he existed. He wrote other commentaries on his own life as well.

Of course there is plenty of evidence that Julius Caesar existed. Cicero, a contemporary political rival of Caesar, talks about him quite a bit in his letters. Sallust, a contemporary historian, wrote quite a bit about him as well. We even have his image on coins from the period.

It’s unfortunate that the student you mentioned was so poorly educated that he was unaware of Julius Caesar’s Commentaries.

On the other hand, Josephus is the only secular source for Jesus’ existence. And there are only two passages in there. In one, there is a very brief reference to Jesus being James brother. The second is the more famous Testimonium Flavianum.

The Testimonium Flavianum has been controversial at times, but the controversy has died down. There are two schools of thought on it: (1) it is a complete forgery and (2) Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but it has suffered from repeated interpolations and modifications over the centuries. Even the old Catholic Encyclopedia says that the passage has suffered from numerous changes over the centuries.
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From the fact that Caesar’s name is attached to some books you deduce that he existed? There’s loads of evidence that Anonymous was/is a real person then, and hundreds of years old judging by the age of some of his/her writings!

You’d do much better citing in evidence the innumerable references by OTHER people of his time to Caesar - say Cato, Cicero, Octavian-Augustus and so on 😉
 
LilyM said:
From the fact that Caesar’s name is attached to some books you deduce that he existed? There’s loads of evidence that Anonymous was/is a real person then, and hundreds of years old judging by the age of some of his/her writings!

You’d do much better citing in evidence the innumerable references by OTHER people of his time to Caesar - say Cato, Cicero, Octavian-Augustus and so on 😉
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Oh come now, I don’t think that was very fair. He did in fact cite Cicero. And I think the evidence of authorship should count for somthing… Alone it would not be concrete, but in the context of all the evidence it certainly adds fuel to the fire.
 
dcharlesworth said:
Oh come now, I don’t think that was very fair. He did in fact cite Cicero. And I think the evidence of authorship should count for somthing… Alone it would not be concrete, but in the context of all the evidence it certainly adds fuel to the fire.
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Indeed he did mention Cicero and Sallust, and I humbly apologise for responding too hastily on that point :bowdown2:

But I have to ask is there any evidence of Caesar’s authorship beyond the fact that his name is on the covers? I haven’t gone into the matter thoroughly, so it may be due to my ignorance that I’m not aware of any.

We certainly allow that the Gospels and Hebrews may have been written by other than their attributed authors.
 
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