Secular orders are an essential part of the mendicant tradition

[JReducation]

I think that your humble opinion is 100% correct. :yup:

Even though they are all mendicants, the Franciscans and Augustinians are more complicated, because they have several orders, whereas the Dominicans only has one order of men.

I can’t even remember how many orders of men the Augustinians have. The Franciscans have more than 50 branches of friars, over 100 branches of sisters, 20,000 nuns who are not affiliated with each other, because the nuns were founded to be autonomous and over 400,000 secular men and women which includes married, singles, deacons, priests and bishops.

All things being equal, the Order of Preachers is pretty user friendly.

 

[Melchior_1]

The “first” orders (such as The Order of the Friars Minor): These folks have under taken solemn vows. Due to one not being able to undertake multiple variations solemn vows, married men cannot do this.

A priest can join a first order, but the vows trump the promises and/or simple vows made previously. So for example, if your local diocesan priest joins the Friars Minor, hos promise of obedience to the local Bishop is now trumped by his solemn vows to his new superior/guardian of the order.

The second order aka The Poor Clares: See above (obviously ignoring the parts about priests), but replace “men” with "women.

The third order: Essentially called a “third order” due to being created third, the Secular Franciscans are designed to encompass everyone else not covered by the above. They take promises, meaning they do not interfere with those who undertake solemn vows (the vows trump the promises).

The canonical life of a Secular Franciscan changes their lives a bit. For starters, they no longer fall under their local archbishop. They now have a canonical superior, as the Secular Franciscans have their own canonical place.

Textbook example here of canonical structure; lets say I join the Secular Franciscans, and I feel called to become a permanent Deacon. First off, I would go the the OSF superior and need their permission to proceed. After that, my WIFE gets the final say, because of the solemn vows we took. Then we approach the Bishop. Second example; if the Superior feels that God is calling me to become a Deacon, and my wife is fine with it, I have to go through with the process. Promise of obedience now trumps everything except the vows.

If you become a OSF and then get married, it doesn’t matter that the vows came second, the vows trump the promises.

In the case of a secular priest who joins the OSF, the promises are chronologically based, so the ones made to the bishop take precedence. The diocese essentially becomes your spouse in a practical sense.

 

[Marauder]

If both Third Orders and seculars can be either a priest/cleric or a layperson, then I’m still not quite sure what the difference is…?

As with all simple explanations (especially about the Franciscan Order) this is over simplified but in general this is the makeup.

1st Order - Primarily consists of OFM, OFM Conventual and OFM Capuchin. There are also a few groups of groups that have direct heritage from those groups, but not a lot. All members of this order are Religious. Some are ordained, some aren’t all depends on the needs of the Order.

2nd Order - These are the only people that could be considered nuns. Most are cloistered. Almost ALL actual 2nd Order sisters have Clare somewhere in their name. Usually Poor Clare. Most other Franciscan female groups are usually 3rd Order. All are religious, none are ordained.

3rd Order Religious - Largest group is TOR. MOST Franciscan sisters that you actually meet fall under this category. MOST Franciscan friars that aren’t part of the 1st Order also fall in this category. All are religious, some are ordained, some aren’t all depends on the needs of the group.

3rd Order Secular - Officially the only group that falls in this category is the Secular Franciscan Order (OFS). There are a few groups that call themselves something different, but still use the Secular Franciscan Order rule and usually support particular missions, but are still under the umbrella of the OFS. There are no religious brothers or sisters, but there are secular priests and deacons as members. Most of the secular priests are usually diocesan priests that may have felt a calling to follow Franciscan ideals after they were ordained. The secular deacons are mixed, some had their calling to OFS before joining, others after. Members make promises not vows, some make private vows but they aren’t required.

One major thing to remember based on your original question is that being a priest within the Franciscan Order doesn’t make you any better then a person that isn’t ordained. Under the ideal within the Order, each group only ordains as many priest as are absolutely for their mission. At the friary I go to you will see the priests mopping the floor, washing dishes, etc. Sometimes the person in charge of friaries are not ordained. There is definitely no guarantee that if you enter a Franciscan group wanting to eventually be a priest, that you will become one. There have been abuses in the past where Franciscan priests felt that the non-ordained were there as servants, but most of the Order is seeking to return to the ideals of the founders.

Of course this post only covers the official Orders, there are numerous Franciscan associations, lay groups, etc. that aren’t officially covered under “orders”.

 

[JReducation]

As with all simple explanations (especially about the Franciscan Order) this is over simplified but in general this is the makeup.

1st Order - Primarily consists of OFM, OFM Conventual and OFM Capuchin. There are also a few groups of groups that have direct heritage from those groups, but not a lot.

Just some examples to help out:

Franciscans of Life (my community)

Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word

Franciscans of the Immaculate

Franciscans of the Renewal

Franciscans of the Eucharist

Franciscans of Peace

Little Brothers of St. Francis

Franciscans of the Primitive Observance.

Franciscans of the Most Holy Family

Capuchins of the Primitive Observance

Capuchin Franciscan Brothers (not OFM Cap)

All of us follow the Rule of the Friars Minor and all of us have direct Franciscan succession through the Friars Minor, meaning that at least one of the founders was either OFM, OFM Cap or OFM Conv.

 

[Marauder]

Just some examples to help out:

Thanks for the list, I didn’t know the providence of all those groups and never know which ones are technically 1st Order vs. currently associations waiting for approval vs. Third Order groups. I personally never understood the difference in how the 1st Order groups can claim to be 1st Order.

I understand the friendly splits. I know that several 1st Order groups started out as missions (i.e. a group of friars that specializes in say hospital work) and eventually split off from the main group for various reasons.

I don’t understand how things work when the split is not friendly,which has happened several times in Franciscan history. How the splinter group in non-friendly situations establishes itself as a valid 1st Order group?

 

[JReducation]

Thanks for the list, I didn’t know the providence of all those groups and never know which ones are technically 1st Order vs. currently associations waiting for approval vs. Third Order groups. I personally never understood the difference in how the 1st Order groups can claim to be 1st Order.

I understand the friendly splits. I know that several 1st Order groups started out as missions (i.e. a group of friars that specializes in say hospital work) and eventually split off from the main group for various reasons.

I don’t understand how things work when the split is not friendly,which has happened several times in Franciscan history. How the splinter group in non-friendly situations establishes itself as a valid 1st Order group?

The first Franciscan order is the Friars Minor. The Friars Minor is divided into three institutes: Observants (OFM) is composed of many smaller splinter groups that existed until the time of Pope Leo XIII. He united them under the simple title of Franciscans. Sometimes the OFM is called the Leonine Union. The second institute is the Conventuals. This institute dates back to Br. Elias. The third institute is the Capuchins. This particular institute began with two Conventuals and two Observants who formed a house, that evolved into a province and later was so large that it was given its own government to avoid conflicts.

The rest of us on that list that I provided are all founded by at least one, sometimes more than one, friar from one of the three institutes of Friars Minor. We are not part of the Friars Minor. Therefore, we are not first order. Nor do we follow the Rule of Penance, which is the rule for the third order. Therefore, we are not third order either. The Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life looks at us as autonomous Franciscan communities.

Terms such as associations are tricky. Every religious institute is a public association of the faithful… There are different kinds of public associations of the faithful, that’s all.

For example, my community and the EWTN friars (MFVA) are a public association. We become a diocesan congregation when we meet certain criteria. We become an institute of pontifical right if we meet another set of criteria. The first criteria is the desire to become a congregation or a pontifical institute. The Church then says that you must have A, B and C in place. This is not necessary to being religious. All that’s necessary is recognition of one’s vows by the proper ecclesial authority. A diocesan bishop will do.

 

[Havard]

A Third Order Franciscan can be a friar, sister, secular clergyman or a secular layman.

Hi Brother, could you please help me understand what might lead one to become a friar of the Friars Minor vs a friar of an autonomous Franciscan community vs a friar of the Third Order?

Thanks in advance for this, and thank you as well for all of your thoughtful explanations.

 

[Marauder]

Hi Brother, could you please help me understand what might lead one to become a friar of the Friars Minor vs a friar of an autonomous Franciscan community vs a friar of the Third Order?

I am sure Brother will give you a real good reason, but in a nutshell it is discernment and visiting. Nobody should be joining a group because it is “First Order vs. Third Order”. It isn’t better being in one or the other, they are both Franciscan. If one is called to religious life they should discern where they are called, get a spiritual director to talk to, and contact the vocation directors of any group you may be interested in. Also they should be open to avenues they didn’t originally intend.

I personally know someone that investigated several OFM groups and found none to his liking, he then met a member of OFM Conventual in passing and really liked what he was talking about. But since OFM Conventual wasn’t located anywhere near him he was concerned they wouldn’t be interested. He contacted them and they flew him to one of their friaries. He liked what he saw and he just finished the postulancy with them.

Some things to think about are what callings beyond religious life do you feel? Do you feel called to Pro-life work, teaching, assisting in the Holy Land, assisting in Third World areas, etc. There are groups within the Franciscan world that help with some of or all of the above. So looking at a group that specializes in your interest may be a start. Then visit them and see if they meet with your expectations and interest.

 

[Batfink]

The same is true of Dominicans.

They use the term “Lay Dominican”. The term does not really describe their order well, because they do have deacons, priests and bishops. They are really secular Dominicans, not lay.

We actually have two separate groups. Lay Dominicans are all either lay or permanent deacons (so not 100% lay but the vast majority of the members are). Secular priests and bishops belong to the Priestly Fraternity of St. Dominic, which is a separate group with a separate rule, organisation, directory etc. It is not connected to Lay Dominicans except in the way that all branches of the Order and Family are bound together.

 

[Bookcat]

Their profession to live the Gospel according to the Rule of St. Francis and the constitutions of their order is equal to my own profession. The fact that they do not specifically mention the evangelical counsels of poverty and chastity in their rite of profession does not make them any less Franciscan.

For clarity here. I assume your in vowed consecrated life. Yes you can be both said to be “Franciscan” but it is important to note that vows are very different than the Profession of Seculars (well some Secular Orders take Private vows -but not the Franciscan) -from that aspect of things.

 

[Bookcat]

The secular orders are truly canonical orders with a place in the life of the Church.

Plural -right.

And indeed they not only fall under such as regards the laity

But also under

THE CONGREGATION FOR INSTITUTES OF CONSECRATED LIFE
AND SOCIETIES OF APOSTOLIC LIFE

Quote:

“Further, it is competent for associations of the faithful erected with the intention of becoming institutes of consecrated life or societies of apostolic life, and for Third Orders Secular.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccscrlife/documents/rc_con_ccscrlife_profile_en.html

They have made great contributions to the Church and produced a long list of saints, popes, bishops, priests and outstanding citizens.

 

[Bookcat]

A Franciscan, Carmelite, or Dominican is canonically bound to his or her order until the day he dies or he asks for permission to leave.

This is why we friars say that their profession is the same as our own. We’re bound to the community until we die or are dispensed. These days, dispensations are easier to get. This was not always the case and it may not be the case for long. This is one of the issues that’s going to be examined during the Year of Consecrated Life. The three mendicant secular orders come under the umbrella of Institutes of Consecrated Life.

I’m not sure. There may be two more mendicant secular orders, Trinitarian and Servite. Maybe someone else knows for sure. I can’t seem to find reliable information on this.

Yes

Historical Third Orders Secular:

Secular Franciscan Order
Lay Dominicans
Third Order Secular of the Carmelite Order
Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites
Secular Order of the Most Holy Trinity (Third Order Secular of Most Holy Trinity)
Mercedarian Third Order (Order of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mercy)
Servite Secular Order (Secular Order of the Servants of Mary)
Secular Augustinians
Secular Augustinian Recollects
Minims Third Order
Praemonstrian Third Order

(and they all still exist)

 

[Havard]

I am sure Brother will give you a real good reason, but in a nutshell it is discernment and visiting. Nobody should be joining a group because it is “First Order vs. Third Order”. It isn’t better being in one or the other, they are both Franciscan. If one is called to religious life they should discern where they are called, get a spiritual director to talk to, and contact the vocation directors of any group you may be interested in. Also they should be open to avenues they didn’t originally intend.

I personally know someone that investigated several OFM groups and found none to his liking, he then met a member of OFM Conventual in passing and really liked what he was talking about. But since OFM Conventual wasn’t located anywhere near him he was concerned they wouldn’t be interested. He contacted them and they flew him to one of their friaries. He liked what he saw and he just finished the postulancy with them.

Some things to think about are what callings beyond religious life do you feel? Do you feel called to Pro-life work, teaching, assisting in the Holy Land, assisting in Third World areas, etc. There are groups within the Franciscan world that help with some of or all of the above. So looking at a group that specializes in your interest may be a start. Then visit them and see if they meet with your expectations and interest.

Thanks for your reply, Marauder.

I certainly don’t believe there is a “better” group, and I’m not sure what might have given you that impression. But I am wondering if there are aspects of being a friar of an autonomous community (or Friars Minor, or Third Order) that might lead any particular friar to join a community within it vs the within one the other two groups.

Perhaps I’m drawing the wrong/arbitrary line here, in which case, I apologize for the stupid question.

 

[Marauder]

I certainly don’t believe there is a “better” group , and I’m not sure what might have given you that impression.

if there are aspects of being a friar of an autonomous community (or Friars Minor, or Third Order) that might lead any particular friar to join a community within it vs the within one the other two groups.

Not saying you said one was better then the other. I was mainly addressing the fact that you shouldn’t be using whether a group is a 1st Order, 3rd Order or anything like that as a factor in the decision. The main thing is discernment. As long as it is a valid Franciscan religious Order approved by the Church, they are all part of the Franciscan family. All the groups have different flavors, missions, roles, living arrangements, etc.

There are things you can look at to help though:

1. How long has the Order been around? (mainly in questioning stability)
2. How was it founded?
3. Which Rule does it follow?
4. How big is the group both on local scale and international?
5. What are typical first assignments?
6. Does the group have a habit? If so what are the requirements?
7. What type of college experience and training is required before joining?
8. What is training will you go through it? after?
9. What are the missions of the group?
10. What is the next step if you are interested?

Just a start about the Order itself. Of course other things should be looked at during the visit like fidelity to the Church, fidelity to the Franciscan charism etc. You have to discern whether this group is the proper fit for you or whether you need to look elsewhere.

 

[Havard]

Not saying you said one was better then the other. I was mainly addressing the fact that you shouldn’t be using whether a group is a 1st Order, 3rd Order or anything like that as a factor in the decision. The main thing is discernment. As long as it is a valid Franciscan religious Order approved by the Church, they are all part of the Franciscan family. All the groups have different flavors, missions, roles, living arrangements, etc.

There are things you can look at to help though:

1. How long has the Order been around? (mainly in questioning stability)
2. How was it founded?
3. Which Rule does it follow?
4. How big is the group both on local scale and international?
5. What are typical first assignments?
6. Does the group have a habit? If so what are the requirements?
7. What type of college experience and training is required before joining?
8. What is training will you go through it? after?
9. What are the missions of the group?
10. What is the next step if you are interested?

Just a start about the Order itself. Of course other things should be looked at during the visit like fidelity to the Church, fidelity to the Franciscan charism etc. You have to discern whether this group is the proper fit for you or whether you need to look elsewhere.

We are thinking along similar lines in terms of discernment. I certainly would never base a decision on such arbitrary categories as those that I laid out.

The reason I asked the question that I did is because group distinctions often lead to group commonalities, and my mind does better when I can see how things fit together in the broader sense first. Forgive me for thinking in such terms, but it helps me if I gain an understanding this way.

 

[JReducation]

I happen to belong to one of these new communities that has less than 30 men. We began with three. The way that we picked up men along the way, both religious and secular brothers was with one simple question. “What are you looking for?”

The men would share what they were looking for and we would tell them, “We have that” or “We don’t have that”.

If I were doing the searching, I would begin with the same question of myself. “What am I looking for?” This way I know and when I go visiting I can ask the right questions.

The most important part in discernment is to allow God to show us something that we were not looking for. In other words, we must allow God to be a god of surprises. We can’t attempt to box him in.

I know that the attraction to our community is that it’s very traditional and that it’s very unstructured. In other words, we are very early Franciscan. The early Franciscans were not as institutionalized as they are today. I know. I was a Capuchin for many years. We became so large that we became an institution. The Capuchins are a great order. I love my roots. But I find that I can best live the Franciscan life in a small community house where we go out to be among the most vulnerable rather than attached to a parish, school, college, hospital, or retreat house. It’s wonderful to wake up in the morning and not see lay people. Sorry folks, but it’s true. LOL

It must have been wonderful for the early friars to wake up in the morning and have quiet and be able to remain in silence until they decided that it was time to go out and preach, farm, or beg. I didn’t have that before. I woke up and I almost rolled out of bed into a classroom, parish church or retreat conference. I could not step outside the door without having someone “Brother” me to death.

It was when we observed Mother Teresa and the Missionaries of Charity that it dawned on a few of us that Franciscan life is still possible today. Mother never allowed the sisters, brothers or fathers of her community to be immersed in their work. They work four hours a day only four days a week and then they are behind closed doors. Neither the women nor the men in the Missionaries of Charity are involved in institutions. They deliberately call their points of service “homes”. This helps them keep in mind that this is a place where people live, not an institution that opens its door from sunrise to sunset and sometimes longer.

I was stationed at a retreat house for four years. I loved it. I was a good retreat master and my talks were well received as was my spiritual direction. Ministry was not a problem. The problem was that when there was a retreat, I was with the retreatants from 6:30 AM to 11:30 PM. I even had to pray with them.

Now, I pray alone or with one more brother. I eat alone or with two brothers, if we’re all home.

I was stationed at several universities for several years. It was the same thing. Once I left the house at 8:00 AM I was not alone until about 9:00 PM. I did not have a chance to be with my brothers alone at any time. There were always students or other members of the university staff.

When I was at a parish, it was worse. I was never as miserable as I was at a parish. It’s a very lonely life. I did not join religious life to be lonely. Solitude is one thing and loneliness is another. Friars in parish life have to fight to get community time. I remember that people would get angry if the friar in the confessional said that he ran out of time, even though he had been there for 90 minutes. It was as if the man did not have a right to community time and as if the community did not have a right to the man’s time. It was all for the parishioners. But that was not in the agreement that we made with the bishops. The bishops knew going in that that the friars were on a fixed number of hours and no more. But after a while, everyone forgot that agreement. So of us who joined the parish years later were subject to a way of life that was not what we joined.

Looking back, I remember that the question that I had to ask myself was, “What are you looking for?” Then I had to figure out if what I was looking for was possible in Franciscan life. I found that it was possible, just not in those structures. This question is an important one. What am I looking for?

 

[Marauder]

The reason I asked the question that I did is because group distinctions often lead to group commonalities, and my mind does better when I can see how things fit together in the broader sense first. Forgive me for thinking in such terms, but it helps me if I gain an understanding this way.

Just because a group is 1st Order vs. 3rd Order religious doesn’t mean anything about the group except for maybe the Rule they are following. There are 3rd Order Religious groups of all flavors, just like there are 1st Order groups of all flavors. You will find variation Order by Order, region by region and even friary by friary. The key is discernment and as Brother JR said, asking “What am I looking for?” Unless you are in on the founding of the group, you will never find a group EXACTLY like you want, but you need to figure out what your give and take will be. Do you want to be part of a small group or a large group? Do you want to support the Holy Land? Third World areas? Pro-life?

If you wanted a small group and to support Pro-life causes, Brother JR’s group would be perfect. But it wouldn’t be perfect if you instead primarily wanted to support the Holy Land. Then the Custos of the Holy Land would be a better option. If it was Third World areas then probably the larger groups would be the best bet because they can afford to send you to those areas, etc. It all depends on what you discern is important to you and making sure those things are really important (i.e. is the physical color of the habit really important to you.)

 

[JReducation]

Unless you are in on the founding of the group, you will never find a group EXACTLY like you want

Not even then. Trust me.

One has to allow God to surprise us.

 

[Avila123]

I must admit that most of this is difficult for me to follow, maybe because I have an over-simplistic understanding. I can understand a call to the Priesthood can be as a parish priest, or as priest and teacher etc. or as a priest within a religious community (cloistered or not). I understand a call to serve as a Religious which can be accompanied by a calling to prayer and contemplation, teaching, nursing etc.

I can understand the laity wanting to support the Church whether it is through dedicating resources to a parish church, missions, Religious Orders etc, plus wanting to lead a Christ-filled life. On this point, I understand that some are able to give more than others, some are attracted to a specific way e.g. the Rule of St Francis to the extent that they wish to apply as much as is possible to their daily lives. But I don’t understand joining to the extent of making vows especially if there is no bar to taking Religious Vows.

It puzzles me as I think that if you are (with God’s help) doing your all and He has not called you to the Priesthood or Religious life, aren’t you where God wants you to be? If you can chose to follow all or most of a Religious Rule, why not just secretly go for it?

But then I am easily confused - I even managed to join the Society of the Little Flower without applying.

I appreciate that this is slightly off topic and will sit out like a sore thumb in the middle of an intelligent and informed discussion, but it is a bit related.

 

[Havard]

Just because a group is 1st Order vs. 3rd Order religious doesn’t mean anything about the group except for maybe the Rule they are following. There are 3rd Order Religious groups of all flavors, just like there are 1st Order groups of all flavors. You will find variation Order by Order, region by region and even friary by friary. The key is discernment and as Brother JR said, asking “What am I looking for?” Unless you are in on the founding of the group, you will never find a group EXACTLY like you want, but you need to figure out what your give and take will be. Do you want to be part of a small group or a large group? Do you want to support the Holy Land? Third World areas? Pro-life?

If you wanted a small group and to support Pro-life causes, Brother JR’s group would be perfect. But it wouldn’t be perfect if you instead primarily wanted to support the Holy Land. Then the Custos of the Holy Land would be a better option. If it was Third World areas then probably the larger groups would be the best bet because they can afford to send you to those areas, etc. It all depends on what you discern is important to you and making sure those things are really important (i.e. is the physical color of the habit really important to you.)

Thank you again for another very thoughtful response. I am early in the process of discerning these things, but I believe I am taking the pointed approach you recommend.