Seder meal

[floresco]

Well, some Jews do, some don’t, and what “messiah” means is very open to debate. That is the thing that cannot be forgotten: to be a Jew is a state of being, not a set of beliefs. I’ve heard a young man in his Bar Mitzvah speech say he was Jewish and that he didn’t believe in God at all! Nobody seemed to blink. He was still Jewish.

He may have been a Jew but he did not have Jewish beliefs.(And I suspect this was not an Orthodox Jewish bar mitzvah, if nobody reacted to such a statement.) Judaism is a religion and it has beliefs associated with it. One of those beliefs is that a Messiah is coming. For purposes of this discussion, we can substitute the word “Judaism” for “Jew” and my point remains.

Judaism awaits a Messiah that Christianity teaches has already come. The religions are opposed on this point. Messianic expectation is a key idea involved in the Seder. This makes it an inappropriate for Christians.

 

[EasterJoy]

He may have been a Jew but he did not have Jewish beliefs.(And I suspect this was not an Orthodox Jewish bar mitzvah, if nobody reacted to such a statement.) Judaism is a religion and it has beliefs associated with it. One of those beliefs is that a Messiah is coming. For purposes of this discussion, we can substitute the word “Judaism” for “Jew” and my point remains.

Judaism awaits a Messiah that Christianity teaches has already come. The religions are opposed on this point. Messianic expectation is a key idea involved in the Seder. This makes it an inappropriate for Christians.

No, he absolutely wasn’t Orthodox, but I don’t think you understand me.

a) Judaism doesn’t have a Vatican that excommunicates you for saying things that a teaching authority deems to be untrue. Even to the Orthodox, if your mom is a Jew, you’re a Jew. You can be a ignorant Jew, you can be a bad Jew, you can be a non-practicing Jew, you can be a Jew whose name isn’t going to make it into the Book of Life, but you’re still a Jew. This is particularly true since the Shoah…Hitler did not care if you passed a litmus test of belief or even of performance. There is a great deal of solidarity among Jews that comes from knowing that all the same people hate them and would like to see them all utterly wiped from the face of the earth. This is not to say that there aren’t Jews who consider those who practice Christianity to be dead because of their apostasy. Not every Jewish congregation thinks that way, though.

b) Judaism, even from a religious standpoint, is far more concerned with what you do than with what you think. Yes, you will find Jews who believe that once you’ve gotten to atheism, you’ve abandoned Judaism, but even those would be mostly concerned that you don’t perform the mitzvahs required of a Jew, not that you don’t have the right ideas in your head.

At any rate, if you were to explain your point of view to a Jew who doesn’t believe a literal messiah is coming with an “oh, well, your seder is different, it’s hardly a seder, because what you believe isn’t actually Judaism”, be sure he’d beg to differ. Unless this Jew was a very gracious friend, your statement would at least solve your problem of how to handle his invitation to come to a seder at his house!

You will even find Jews who become Christians and still consider themselves Jewish. Some of these organize under the name “Jews for Jesus”: jewsforjesus.org/

 

[floresco]

b) Judaism, even from a religious standpoint, is far more concerned with what you do than with what you think. Yes, you will find Jews who believe that once you’ve gotten to atheism, you’ve abandoned Judaism, but even those would be mostly concerned that you don’t perform the mitzvahs required of a Jew, not that you don’t have the right ideas in your head.

I do not see how any of this is relevant to this discussion. While it is quite true that a person’s Jewishness is not dependant on holding standard Jewish beliefs, there nevertheless are standard Jewish beliefs. (These vary somewhat according to the branch of Judaism.) As far as those standard beliefs pertain to Seders, they are not compatible with Christianity. It is therefore not appropriate for Catholics to attend Seders.

It could happen that one knew a Jew who did not have standard beliefs and who conducted a Seder in such a way that there was nothing incompatible with Catholicism. However, it would be an unusual Seder.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I have been to a “real” seder ~ at the home of a Conservative Jewish Family who kept a Kosher home and I have also been to the “seder” hosted by my RCIA class, overseen by a Jewish couple, at my parish. By far, the “real” seder was more authentic.

There were many things that happened at the RCIA seder that were not part of the “real” seder that I had attended previously, mostly songs.

But all of that misses the point. Because the Last Supper was a Passover Seder, it is pertinent to Catholics and, indeed, all Christians. We learned many things at our RCIA seder that it is important for Catholics and all Christians to know.

If we carry it further (as our RCIA staff did) and scrutinize the Gospels carefully, we see that the Last Supper was ended abruptly, before it was officially “finished” and that Jesus actually finished it on the Cross. Scott Hahn discusses this, and I’ll leave complete explanation to him rather than try to duplicate it. Without an understanding of Passover, there is no way for us to understand the importance of ending the Passover abruptly, nor can we understand completely when Jesus said “it is finished” on the cross.

Bottom line ~ Unless you understand Passover, you cannot fully understand the Lord’s Passion. It makes a difference as to how you understand the Eucharist, at least it did for me. If we learn the process, are we worshipping in another way? No, we’re learning.

 

[floresco]

Bottom line ~ Unless you understand Passover, you cannot fully understand the Lord’s Passion. It makes a difference as to how you understand the Eucharist, at least it did for me. If we learn the process, are we worshipping in another way? No, we’re learning.

Unless we understand sin, we cannot fully understand salvation. Does that mean we should sin?

I agree that an understanding of Seder practices is beneficial to knowing our own faith. It does not follow that participating in a Seder is the best, or even a good, way to obtain that understanding.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Unless we understand sin, we cannot fully understand salvation. Does that mean we should sin?

I agree that an understanding of Seder practices is beneficial to knowing our own faith. It does not follow that participating in a Seder is the best, or even a good, way to obtain that understanding.

I don’t think that any of us have a problem understanding sin, so I question how relevant that point is. We all sin, so we’re all fairly familiar with it.

Participating in a Passover seder is, indeed beneficial. But you’re right, it’s not the only way to understand, it’s a sense-perceptible way to understand, which, by its nature, is often more meaningful. The Eucharist is another sense-perceptible sign.

What I have found, however, among even my most faithful Catholic friends, is that few know anything about Passover and I have yet to meet someone who knew or understood that Jesus finished the Last Supper on the cross.

 

[floresco]

Participating in a Passover seder is, indeed beneficial. But you’re right, it’s not the only way to understand, it’s a sense-perceptible way to understand, which, by its nature, is often more meaningful. The Eucharist is another sense-perceptible sign.

What I have found, however, among even my most faithful Catholic friends, is that few know anything about Passover and I have yet to meet someone who knew or understood that Jesus finished the Last Supper on the cross.

Participating in the religious services of other religions is not beneficial. It is against the teaching of the Church. This is because it exposes us to false teaching and could promote indifferentism (the belief that all religions are equal). A Jewish Seder is a Jewish religious service.

This idea that Jesus finished the Last Supper on the cross comes from reading Scott Hahn, not from attending Seders. It is not “sense-perceptible”. And, while multi-sensory learning is indeed effective, this does not mean we should do something wrong in order to learn. Catholics who want to learn about Seders should attend a Catholic presentation on the Seder (which can even use multi-sensory techniques). They should not attend a Seder.

 

[EasterJoy]

I do not see how any of this is relevant to this discussion. While it is quite true that a person’s Jewishness is not dependant on holding standard Jewish beliefs, there nevertheless are standard Jewish beliefs. (These vary somewhat according to the branch of Judaism.) As far as those standard beliefs pertain to Seders, they are not compatible with Christianity. It is therefore not appropriate for Catholics to attend Seders.

It could happen that one knew a Jew who did not have standard beliefs and who conducted a Seder in such a way that there was nothing incompatible with Catholicism. However, it would be an unusual Seder.

The beliefs of those who revere Jesus of Nazareth are far more standard than those who consider themselves descendants of Abraham, trust me.

At any rate, my entire point is that it is possible to know whether a seder is “unusual” or not, whether it has anything to do with the idea of messiah at all or anything else that would violate our understanding of God and salvation history, in advance. You can simply ask. That’s a way that you can know whether it would be appropriate for you to be there or not.

Or you can decide not to go in you’re invited, if you’re gracious about declining. That’s OK, too.

 

[floresco]

At any rate, my entire point is that it is possible to know whether a seder is “unusual” or not, whether it has anything to do with the idea of messiah at all or anything else that would violate our understanding of God and salvation history, in advance. You can simply ask. That’s a way that you can know whether it would be appropriate for you to be there or not.

Even attending a Seder that has nothing contrary to Catholicism in it, would still carry the danger of promoting indifferentism. This just isn’t something likely to be appropriate under most circumstances.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Participating in the religious services of other religions is not beneficial. It is against the teaching of the Church. This is because it exposes us to false teaching and could promote indifferentism (the belief that all religions are equal). A Jewish Seder is a Jewish religious service.

This idea that Jesus finished the Last Supper on the cross comes from reading Scott Hahn, not from attending Seders. It is not “sense-perceptible”. And, while multi-sensory learning is indeed effective, this does not mean we should do something wrong in order to learn. Catholics who want to learn about Seders should attend a Catholic presentation on the Seder (which can even use multi-sensory techniques). They should not attend a Seder.

I happen to think you’re wrong. But I am not going to argue with you. Have a nice life.

 

[Sarah_Angel]

If one leaves the Seder alone it is Jewish worship and contains ideas that directly contradict Christianity. I can understand claiming that this breaks the first commandment.

A Christian Seder takes the Jewish Seder and adjusts it so that it will have Christian rather than Jewish significance. The problem with this is that Jesus already did this. He changed the significance of the bread and the wine and the paschal lamb and that is how the Eucharist was instituted. Having a Christian Seder kind of implies that one thinks that one can do a better job of it than Jesus did.

Well, you didn’t even respond to the post that I replied to RosaryCrusader. I kind of answer this in the second half of my post.

As I said in the other thread, while it is true that we have the Eucharist and we don’t need the Christian Seder, it’s still eye-opening to see how God’s covenants have affected us as a people, of Israel and - since Christ’s resurrection - the world.

Which is something that MelanieAnne brought up. It is not and should not be a requirement to celebrate a Christian Seder, nor should it replace the Eucharist, but it’s a way to remember the Passover and a way to see salvation history.

 

[floresco]

It is not and should not be a requirement to celebrate a Christian Seder, nor should it replace the Eucharist, but it’s a way to remember the Passover and a way to see salvation history.

It is a way. Various reasons have already been presented in this thread as to why it is not a good way. There are other ways to gain an understanding of Passover, Seders and their connection to salvation history.

 

[anode]

If you want to experience a seder, don’t try to do it yourself. There are plenty of ‘open’ seders in or around most large cities. Many universities and large Jewish organizations–universities, hospitals, offer them. I have attended plenty in my day. the most impressive was an invitation to a private family, who were ‘modern orthodox’–(framed ketubah or marriage contract on the wall) and the ceremony lasted–in Hebrew–for several hours. At the end, another guest, said “Sorry to eat and run…”

Above all, don’t attend one with young children.

 

[EasterJoy]

Participating in the religious services of other religions is not beneficial. It is against the teaching of the Church. This is because it exposes us to false teaching and could promote indifferentism (the belief that all religions are equal). A Jewish Seder is a Jewish religious service.

This idea that Jesus finished the Last Supper on the cross comes from reading Scott Hahn, not from attending Seders. It is not “sense-perceptible”. And, while multi-sensory learning is indeed effective, this does not mean we should do something wrong in order to learn. Catholics who want to learn about Seders should attend a Catholic presentation on the Seder (which can even use multi-sensory techniques). They should not attend a Seder.

A Jewish seder is a Jewish family experience. It is a cultural experience. Going as a non-family member is an experience of friendship. I’m not in favor of Christian pseudo-seders, but if a Jewish family invites you to their seder and the text they’re using is not contrary to the Catholic faith, attending can be a valuable experience.

That is, unless you think that the very idea of having close friends that aren’t Catholic could promote indifferentism…which, in some people, is actually a danger. On the other hand, if more people in Germany had ever been to a seder, maybe Hitler and his gang would’ve had a harder time of it. So it could work both ways.

Even attending a Seder that has nothing contrary to Catholicism in it, would still carry the danger of promoting indifferentism. This just isn’t something likely to be appropriate under most circumstances.

Allowing yourself to watch major-league sports is more likely to cause indifferentism, but it is possible. It is something to consider. I just don’t think I’d go so far as to issue a blanket condemnation.

The reason is that I don’t think it is a good idea to separate ourselves so much from non-Catholics that they totally become a “them” instead of in some sense remaining within the realm of “us”. Maintaining real relationships with people outside the faith can give a natural support to our supernatural obligation to see every person as a child of God, loved by God as much as we are, to see in them the Lord’s admonition, “when I was a stranger…” It is harder to defend the dignity of the person when you have no interest in understanding the uniqueness of the person. Not impossible, but harder.

Having said that, accepting invitations to seders isn’t necessary to accomplish that. We need to take things on a case-by-case basis.

 

[floresco]

Allowing yourself to watch major-league sports is more likely to cause indifferentism, but it is possible. It is something to consider. I just don’t think I’d go so far as to issue a blanket condemnation.

The reason is that I don’t think it is a good idea to separate ourselves so much from non-Catholics that they totally become a “them” instead of in some sense remaining within the realm of “us”. Maintaining real relationships with people outside the faith can give a natural support to our supernatural obligation to see every person as a child of God, loved by God as much as we are, to see in them the Lord’s admonition, “when I was a stranger…” It is harder to defend the dignity of the person when you have no interest in understanding the uniqueness of the person. Not impossible, but harder.

Indifferentism is the belief that all religions are of equal value. It is the belief that being a Catholic makes no difference, that the Catholic faith is no more true than other religions and no more efficacious for salvation. I do not see how watching major league sports promotes this. I do see how attending the religious services of other religions promotes this. Our attendance sends the message that we see their worship as good and their beliefs as true. But as Catholics, we do not (or should not) believe that.

To refrain from worshipping with people of other religions is not the same as separating oneself from them. There are many, many activities that are appropriate to do with non-Catholics. We can share with them in social occasions, good works and political actions that are consistent with Church teaching. There is no need to participate in people’s religious services to recognize their human dignity or to understand their uniqueness.

Even if avoidance of non-Catholic worship really did make understanding others more difficult, we would just have to make the extra effort. Because participating in non-Catholic worship is wrong in most circumstances. Sometimes it is appropriate to attend weddings and funerals, but in general Catholics should not attend non-Catholic religious services.

 

[EasterJoy]

Indifferentism is the belief that all religions are of equal value. It is the belief that being a Catholic makes no difference, that the Catholic faith is no more true than other religions and no more efficacious for salvation. I do not see how watching major league sports promotes this. I do see how attending the religious services of other religions promotes this. Our attendance sends the message that we see their worship as good and their beliefs as true. But as Catholics, we do not (or should not) believe that.

To refrain from worshipping with people of other religions is not the same as separating oneself from them. There are many, many activities that are appropriate to do with non-Catholics. We can share with them in social occasions, good works and political actions that are consistent with Church teaching. There is no need to participate in people’s religious services to recognize their human dignity or to understand their uniqueness.

Even if avoidance of non-Catholic worship really did make understanding others more difficult, we would just have to make the extra effort. Because participating in non-Catholic worship is wrong in most circumstances. Sometimes it is appropriate to attend weddings and funerals, but in general Catholics should not attend non-Catholic religious services.

Having been to a seder, I will say that it was a lot more like going to a wedding or a funeral than like attending a church service. Of course it was a religious event, but it is a family event, as well. If your family is truly wedded to your faith in God, every important family event is. It is so much a family event that Jews who are not religiously observant will still have seders. Family seders connect Jews to their forebearers, not just to God. To many, to go to a seder where you don’t know anybody hardly seems a seder at all, by comparison. (Mind you, it would be a huge mistake to make blanket statements on the topic. I simply can’t put “pat answer” and “Jewish thought” in the same part of my brain. The two just don’t go together.)

I made the comment about the top echelon of sports only partly tongue-in-cheek. The secular world also weighs in with interests that too easily stray into the realm of fanaticism. Many a pastor wishes that his parishioners anticipated Holy Week and Easter with half of the interest and attention that attends the playoffs and Superbowl or March Madness.

Besides, how many people neglect their religious duties with tripe such as “I feel closer to God when I’m in the woods” or “My day of rest is better spent on a golf course than wearing a tie in some church”? So it is not only other religions that steal hearts from the central place our faith deserves. Most hearts bought away from the truth are purchased with charms of far less substance.

 

[jmcrae]

Which is something that MelanieAnne brought up. It is not and should not be a requirement to celebrate a Christian Seder, nor should it replace the Eucharist, but it’s a way to remember the Passover and a way to see salvation history.

The term “Christian Seder” is a contradiction in terms. The Seder prefigures Christ - which means that it assumes that Christ has not yet come. As Christians, we believe that Christ already came, nearly 2,000 years ago.

Studying about the Seder can be instructive, and you could even do a kind of re-enactment for educational purposes in the context of a Catechism class, as long as it was made clear that it was not an actual Seder meal.

 

[jmcrae]

Besides, how many people neglect their religious duties with tripe such as “I feel closer to God when I’m in the woods” or “My day of rest is better spent on a golf course than wearing a tie in some church”? So it is not only other religions that steal hearts from the central place our faith deserves. Most hearts bought away from the truth are purchased with charms of far less substance.

Right - but it has only become possible to think this way, because people have been led to think that “everybody gets to go to Heaven.” If all religions are equal, then no religion is necessary - and thus, finding God in the woods is no different than finding Him in an ashram or in a synagogue, or at a Catholic Mass (because if God is to be found equally in all those places, then why on earth wouldn’t He be in the woods, or on the golf course, or at a sports festival, as well? )

 

[floresco]

Having been to a seder, I will say that it was a lot more like going to a wedding or a funeral than like attending a church service. Of course it was a religious event, but it is a family event, as well. If your family is truly wedded to your faith in God, every important family event is. It is so much a family event that Jews who are not religiously observant will still have seders. Family seders connect Jews to their forebearers, not just to God.

For Catholics, Christmas dinner is a family event while Christmas Mass is religious event. A Seder combines both these elements. It is just as much a religious service as the Mass is. There are non-practising Catholics who only go to church on Christmas (and maybe Easter too) but this does not stop the Christmas Mass from being a religious service. Even when secular Jews have a Seder, celebrating their heritage without any belief in God, it is in the form of a religious service. That is what a Seder is - a Jewish religious ritual.

I have been to many Seders (both Jewish and Catholic) before coming to my current convictions on the subject. I do have first hand knowledge.

 

[floresco]

Right - but it has only become possible to think this way, because people have been led to think that “everybody gets to go to Heaven.”

Exactly. We are living in a a time when this kind of thinking is very common. We therefore need to take care that we do not contribute to it by our actions. Attending non-Catholic religious services promotes this error and should be avoided.