Seder meals????

[Monica4316]

I read somewhere that the Church doesn’t allow Catholics to attend Seder meals, but others are saying it’s okay, - what is the Church teaching here?

By the way I mean putting together Seder meals with other Catholics… I’m not talking about attending the Jewish Seder meals, - don’t know if there is a difference.

thanks!

 

[RosaryFan]

I read somewhere that the Church doesn’t allow Catholics to attend Seder meals, but others are saying it’s okay, - what is the Church teaching here?

By the way I mean putting together Seder meals with other Catholics… I’m not talking about attending the Jewish Seder meals, - don’t know if there is a difference.

thanks!

I’d be curious to see how others will answer your question. I, myself, never heard of Catholics putting together seder meals. I can’t, for the life of me, imagine why they would. It seems like it would be extremely improper. It seems like it would be a blatant disregard for the “new and everlasting covenant” instituted at the Last Supper, which is our Mass.

Just my opinion.

 

[Shin]

The Christian Seder Meal: A Violation of the 1st Commandment

Sermon on the subject. Addresses specifically a “Christian” Seder Meal.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Attending a Seder Meal, as many Catholic parishes will do, is for the sake of educating ourselves to the Jewish Tradition and learning their traditions out of respect. It also gives us a better understanding of the Last Supper celebrated by Jesus and his apostles.

There is nothing wrong with this.

The error would be incorporating the Seder into Christianity as a rite as the Byzantines did back centuries ago, and Pope Benedict XIV, not to be confused with the current Pope, wrote against.

As far as being a violation of the 1st Commandment, I don’t see how it could be.

Jim

 

[RosaryFan]

Attending a Seder Meal, as many Catholic parishes will do, is for the sake of educating ourselves to the Jewish Tradition and learning their traditions out of respect. It also gives us a better understanding of the Last Supper celebrated by Jesus and his apostles.

There is nothing wrong with this.

The error would be incorporating the Seder into Christianity as a rite as the Byzantines did back centuries ago, and Pope Benedict XIV, not to be confused with the current Pope, wrote against.

As far as being a violation of the 1st Commandment, I don’t see how it could be.

Jim

I believe the OP was asking about Christians making their own seder meal - not merely attending a Jewish seder.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I believe the OP was asking about Christians making their own seder meal - not merely attending a Jewish seder.

Even if they’re doing it out of respect for the Jewish tradition, it wouldn’t be wrong.

I believe the OP is refering to an article in another thread in CAF that I just saw today, where a poster used a writing from Pope Benedict XIV, which said that Christians should not attend Seder meals. However, the OP’s article in that thread was misleading. The Pope was addressing a Greek rite who were seeking union with Rome, but who where using a book of prayers and rites by the Byzantines which mandated not only the Seder, but also the dietary regulations of Judaism. The Pope explained that neither should is required for Christians and should not be imposed on them.

Jim

 

[RosaryFan]

Even if they’re doing it out of respect for the Jewish tradition, it wouldn’t be wrong.

I believe the OP is refering to an article in another thread in CAF that I just saw today, where a poster used a writing from Pope Benedict XIV, which said that Christians should not attend Seder meals. However, the OP’s article in that thread was misleading. The Pope was addressing a Greek rite who were seeking union with Rome, but who where using a book of prayers and rites by the Byzantines which mandated not only the Seder, but also the dietary regulations of Judaism. The Pope explained that neither should is required for Christians and should not be imposed on them.

Jim

The OP said,
“By the way I mean putting together Seder meals with other Catholics… I’m not talking about attending the Jewish Seder meals…”

 

[typewriterman]

I have coordinated several Seder Meals at our parish. I’ve done this to connect the Last Supper of Jesus and the Liturgy of the Eucharist with the Old Testament Tradition of the Passover meal. In it we teach the “fourth cup” as Scott Hahn teaches. It is all quite enlightening for all involved.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The OP said,
“By the way I mean putting together Seder meals with other Catholics… I’m not talking about attending the Jewish Seder meals…”

I understand that.

I’ve attended Seder Meals put on at various Catholic Parishes, which were led by the pastor.

Again, there is nothing wrong with this, in that we are not adding a ritual to Catholic Tradition, but doing it as a learning experience in order to better understand the Passover Supper where Jesus instituted the Holy Eucharist.

Jim

 

[typewriterman]

If someone would like to plan a “Catholic” Seder Meal, I’d ba happy to email an appropriate Haggadah (program) for it.

 

[RosaryFan]

I understand that.

I’ve attended Seder Meals put on at various Catholic Parishes, which were led by the pastor.

Again, there is nothing wrong with this, in that we are not adding a ritual to Catholic Tradition, but doing it as a learning experience in order to better understand the Passover Supper where Jesus instituted the Holy Eucharist.

Jim

Oh! Gotcha. Thanks for explaining.

 

[shocktrooper]

I am not sure how participating in a Seder meal enlightens us to how Jesus and the Apostles celebrated Passover. The current Rabbinical Seder meal was not instituted until after the destruction of the temple. It was not something Jesus would have been familiar with. Jesus celebrated Passover and gave us a new Passover Celebration. No one on this thread has explained how the Seder meal would bring us closer to Christ, when the meal itself is a liturgical ritual that looks forward to the future messiah of the Rabbinical Jewish faith. This is a meal that specifically excludes Jesus as the Messiah of all people. Why would any Christian want to participate in this when we have the Eucharist to partake in?

Pax Christi.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I am not sure how participating in a Seder meal enlightens us to how Jesus and the Apostles celebrated Passover. The current Rabbinical Seder meal was not instituted until after the destruction of the temple. It was not something Jesus would have been familiar with. Jesus celebrated Passover and gave us a new Passover Celebration. No one on this thread has explained how the Seder meal would bring us closer to Christ, when the meal itself is a liturgical ritual that looks forward to the future messiah of the Rabbinical Jewish faith. This is a meal that specifically excludes Jesus as the Messiah of all people. Why would any Christian want to participate in this when we have the Eucharist to partake in?

Pax Christi.

The Passover meal was celebrated going back to Moses. Just as the Mass evolved, so too did the Passover meal, but the essential elements are the same.

The Last Supper when Jesus instituted the Eucharist, was the Passover Meal. There is nothing wrong understanding the full context of that event.

It amazed me to learn that the fourth cup of wine in the Seder, was the cup of Jesus blood when he instituted the Eucharist, which is why he said that this was the cup of the new covenant.

The more I learn about the Jewish traditions from the Old Testament, the more I understand the Catholic traditions, especially the Mass.

In fact, during Lent, I prayer the Office of the Readings in the Liturgy of the Hours. If anyone has the breviary and hasn’t done it, go do it now. It begins with God’s instruction to Moses instituting the priesthood and how the blood sacrifices were to be carried out. From the vestments they were to wear, which is what our Bishops wear today, to the homilies given by the great saints like St Augustine, we see the beginnings of the Mass. We see that Jesus, a priest in the order of Melchizedek offers bread and wine in sacrifice, but makes the bread and wine his body and blood.

Learning more about Judaism only teaches us more about our Catholic faith, I have no doubt about it.

Jim

 

[typewriterman]

I am not sure how participating in a Seder meal enlightens us to how Jesus and the Apostles celebrated Passover. The current Rabbinical Seder meal was not instituted until after the destruction of the temple. It was not something Jesus would have been familiar with. Jesus celebrated Passover and gave us a new Passover Celebration. No one on this thread has explained how the Seder meal would bring us closer to Christ, when the meal itself is a liturgical ritual that looks forward to the future messiah of the Rabbinical Jewish faith. This is a meal that specifically excludes Jesus as the Messiah of all people. Why would any Christian want to participate in this when we have the Eucharist to partake in?

Pax Christi.

I don’t think the OP was about the current Rabbinical Seder. Any Seder meal I’ve attended in a Catholic setting is used to give some background on the Passover Meal Jesus was celebrating with his disciples at the Last Supper. I think there is some historical significance of that Passover Meal. If a Seder Meal is constructed in a way to point to the Eucharistic action of Jesus at the Last Supper, then it can be a learning session as well as a time for fellowship and enjoyment among parishioners. This is the way I’ve always conducted our Seder Meals at our parish. Those who attend find them informative as well as enjoyable.

 

[shocktrooper]

The Passover meal was celebrated going back to Moses. Just as the Mass evolved, so too did the Passover meal, but the essential elements are the same.

The Last Supper when Jesus instituted the Eucharist, was the Passover Meal. There is nothing wrong understanding the full context of that event.

It amazed me to learn that the fourth cup of wine in the Seder, was the cup of Jesus blood when he instituted the Eucharist, which is why he said that this was the cup of the new covenant.

The more I learn about the Jewish traditions from the Old Testament, the more I understand the Catholic traditions, especially the Mass.

In fact, during Lent, I prayer the Office of the Readings in the Liturgy of the Hours. If anyone has the breviary and hasn’t done it, go do it now. It begins with God’s instruction to Moses instituting the priesthood and how the blood sacrifices were to be carried out. From the vestments they were to wear, which is what our Bishops wear today, to the homilies given by the great saints like St Augustine, we see the beginnings of the Mass. We see that Jesus, a priest in the order of Melchizedek offers bread and wine in sacrifice, but makes the bread and wine his body and blood.

Learning more about Judaism only teaches us more about our Catholic faith, I have no doubt about it.

Jim

Jim,

I totally agree with you, but a current Jewish Seder Meal is not the OT Passover Meal that Jesus partook in. And understanding the OT Passover/Seder Meal does not mean that we have to celebrate one in the OT way. The celebration is now in the Holy Eucharist. I don’t see anywhere in Church history that this was ever done. This seems to me to be Judaizing. Should we start sacrificing lambs and goats on the altar at Mass so that we can fully understand how Jesus would have celebrated the Passover Meal? Or should we accept the new Sacrifice of Christ as being sufficient?

Pax Christi.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim,

I totally agree with you, but a current Jewish Seder Meal is not the OT Passover Meal that Jesus partook in. And understanding the OT Passover/Seder Meal does not mean that we have to celebrate one in the OT way. The celebration is now in the Holy Eucharist. I don’t see anywhere in Church history that this was ever done. This seems to me to be Judaizing. Should we start sacrificing lambs and goats on the altar at Mass so that we can fully understand how Jesus would have celebrated the Passover Meal? Or should we accept the new Sacrifice of Christ as being sufficient?

Pax Christi.

OK, you’ll have to explain why the current Jewish Seder is not the OT Passover Meal.

My understanding is that his tradition hasn’t changed much outside of cultural norms, such as washing of the feet etc.

The OT readings are the same, from what I’ve been told.

Jim

 

[shocktrooper]

OK, you’ll have to explain why the current Jewish Seder is not the OT Passover Meal.

My understanding is that his tradition hasn’t changed much outside of cultural norms, such as washing of the feet etc.

The OT readings are the same, from what I’ve been told.

Jim

It is not the same because the intentions are different. Jesus and the OT Israelites celebrated the Passover Meal while looking forward to Jesus the Christ. The current Seder meal denies Jesus as the Pascal Lamb and looks forward to a different messiah.

It is also my understanding that texts are read from the Mishnah and the Talmud. These texts were written after Christ and deny his Gospel. Again, I can appreciated someone wanting to understand the history of the Church but that does not mean that we should start participating in a different religion’s liturgical worship service. There is just no need for it since we have the real Passover Meal (Eucharist) and many make a very good argument that it violates the 1st Commandment because it is considered false worship/superstition.

I am not looking to argue here, I just want sound reason for partaking in a Jewish ceremony. Would it be more faithful to take the tradition of the Israelites and there Passover/Seder meal and enlighten people to how that is fulfilled in the Eucharist. Why would you offer someone a second rate liturgical meal that has been superseded by a new one?

Again, how is this not Judaizing our Christian faith?

Pax Christi.

 

[shocktrooper]

I don’t think the OP was about the current Rabbinical Seder. Any Seder meal I’ve attended in a Catholic setting is used to give some background on the Passover Meal Jesus was celebrating with his disciples at the Last Supper. I think there is some historical significance of that Passover Meal. If a Seder Meal is constructed in a way to point to the Eucharistic action of Jesus at the Last Supper, then it can be a learning session as well as a time for fellowship and enjoyment among parishioners. This is the way I’ve always conducted our Seder Meals at our parish. Those who attend find them informative as well as enjoyable.

If you are saying that you are just going through the motions of a timeline/order of things as attested to in Scripture or Tradition, and how that relates to the Eucharist then I see your point and agree. However, I still don’t think the reenactment is necessary. We have our own liturgy.

Pax Christi.

 

[crystal_waters]

I’d be curious to see how others will answer your question. I, myself, never heard of Catholics putting together seder meals. I can’t, for the life of me, imagine why they would. It seems like it would be extremely improper. It seems like it would be a blatant disregard for the “new and everlasting covenant” instituted at the Last Supper, which is our Mass.

Just my opinion.

ive never heard of catholics doing it either…it would be kind of disrespectful to a jewish person for a catholic to have a seder i think because it isnt our religion and rituals…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It is not the same because the intentions are different. Jesus and the OT Israelites celebrated the Passover Meal while looking forward to Jesus the Christ. The current Seder meal denies Jesus as the Pascal Lamb and looks forward to a different messiah.

It is also my understanding that texts are read from the Mishnah and the Talmud. These texts were written after Christ and deny his Gospel. Again, I can appreciated someone wanting to understand the history of the Church but that does not mean that we should start participating in a different religion’s liturgical worship service. There is just no need for it since we have the real Passover Meal (Eucharist) and many make a very good argument that it violates the 1st Commandment because it is considered false worship/superstition.

I am not looking to argue here, I just want sound reason for partaking in a Jewish ceremony. Would it be more faithful to take the tradition of the Israelites and there Passover/Seder meal and enlighten people to how that is fulfilled in the Eucharist. Why would you offer someone a second rate liturgical meal that has been superseded by a new one?

Again, how is this not Judaizing our Christian faith?

Pax Christi.

Sorry, that’s not the answer.

I understood you to say that the Passover Meal celerbated at the time of Christ is not the same celebrated by Jews today.

Instead, you’re talking about the intent of Jesus, celebrating the Passover, which of course is different than Jews then as it is today.

So, when we celebrate the Seder from Jewish text, we are in fact celebrating the Passover Meal that Jews during the time of Christ and Jews today still celebrate.

However, our intent is different than that of the Jews, for they celebrate it out of mandate to the convenant which we are not bound to, for Christ instituted a new Covenant in his death and resurection.

So, Catholics celebrating the Seder for the purpose of linking us closer to the Passover Meal Jesus celebrated when he instituted the Eucharist, is closer than that of which the Jews today celebrate, because our intent is for closer union with Jesus Christ.

To me, this is the only reason why I’ve participated in Seder’s, to be closer to Jesus Christ, not to Jewish culture.

Jim