Sedevacantism and PIUS IX

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Pnewton, you’ve demonstrated that you don’t know what the substance of a sacrament is.
The substance of the sacrament? That would be the body and blood of Christ. I did not know you disagree with this. This is something I did not know that sedevacantists differ on. Is transubstantiation denied altogether, or are we just talking about a different issue. I would think that when one speaks of the substance, the word would be used in a classic theological sense. From:

newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3
That the consequence of
Transubstantiation, as a conversion of the total substance, is the transition of the entire substance of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, is the express doctrine of the Church (Council of Trent, Sess. XIII, can. ii).
 
Sorry, I thought it was obvious that I’m a Catholic who believes that the Church is in a state of sede vacante. I’m sure you are aware that the Church is sometimes in this state.

Er… similarly, I’d like to know to whom I’m talking.

Cheers,

Four_Marks
No it was not obvious that you are a Roman Catholic.

There are a lot of fakirs on this site of late, so we want to know who is speaking.

Please speak.

peace
 
Newton,

We are speaking of the theology of the Mass being changed. The Novus Ordo Missae expresses a new theology. Prayers of the Propers of the Mass were deleted and modified to express this new theology.

There is a well-known axiom in the Church; Lex orandi est lex credendi…the law of prayer is the law of belief. The prayers of the Ordinary and the Propers of the Mass express Catholic Theology. The changes in these prayers were not accidental changes…they were changed drastically and substantially. And for a reason…to change beliefs.

These are verifiable things. One can’t just deny them.

SFD
I have asked for specific doctrines that were changed as a result of or indicated by changes in the Liturgy of the Mass.

I have not received them.

I would appreciate hearing what are the doctrinal changes involved in turning the altar to face the people, having the Mass in the vernacular, having the Eucharist under two species, using the laity to assist with the distribution of the Eucharist, and some other minor changes I seem to remember.

Please fill me in on the rest.

peace
 
The substance of the sacrament? That would be the body and blood of Christ. I did not know you disagree with this. This is something I did not know that sedevacantists differ on. Is transubstantiation denied altogether, or are we just talking about a different issue. I would think that when one speaks of the substance, the word would be used in a classic theological sense. From:

newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3
No, I’m sorry, but you are wrong. It would not be the body and blood of Christ.

Look carefully at the statement that you supplied from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It is totally contradictory of :“That would be the body and blood of Christ.”

Yes, one must not only use words in “the classic theological sense”, but one must understand aright what those words define. In this case, “substance of a sacrament”.
  • “As is generally explained by theologians, the substance of a sacrament consists of those elements of the sacrament which are absolutely necessary in order to have the sacrament; viz., the matter and the form. By the matter is meant the specific, determinate, sensible thing or things used in the external rite of the sacrament; for example, water in Baptism, bread and wine in the Holy Eucharist. The form is the sequence of specific, determinate words pronounced by the minister of the sacrament.” “The word,” says St. Augustine, “is joined to the element, and it becomes a sacrament.”
“Addis and Arnold’s Catholic Dictionary comments thus: '‘The Council of Trent defines that though the Church may change rites and ceremonies, it cannot alter the “substance” of the sacraments. This follows from the very nature of a sacrament. The matter and form have no power in themselves to give grace. This power depends solely on the use of certain things and words, so that if these are altered in their essence the sacrament is altogether absent’.”

The above is what must be understood correctly. How this relates specifically to the inquiry into the Novus Ordo Missae, will be presented in later instalments.

*The author quoted will be revealed at the end. What matters, are whether his words are correct Catholic teaching, not his identity.
 
Pax et Caritas;QUOTE:
Just a few things: You made note of certain of the Canons of Canon Law.

You cited Canon 2316. I have the “New Commentary on Canon Law”. The Code was revised in 1983. There is no Canon 2316. The Code goes to Canon 1752.

You better check your references. Why are all these references never true, and can’t be counted on?

I think the whole subject is distasteful. I don’t know if John Paul kissed the Koran, and why he did it, if he did.

Whatever…It was not an heretical act.

As for Mystici Corporis, the exclusion from the Body of Christ is heresy. Not Canonical heresy as found in the Code. It is utterly absurd to say that everyone is a member of the Church: Evangelicals, Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists, and every color and stripe of Christian.

Canonical heresy can only refer to members of the Catholic Church. We are not talking about a canonical crime; we are talking about the moral fault (sin) against faith, viz., the sin of heresy. These are outside of the Mystical Body, outside the Church.

No, Pius XII was referring to heretics in Mystici Corporis, i.e. those who do not profess the Catholic faith, and those who are not in communion with Rome.

This is true of the wording of Lumen Gentium.

Whether the Pope can be a heretic? I don’t even want to dwell on the possibility of an answer.

The whole crowd of Sedevacatists are off the wall, if you ask me. They fit into the Fr. Feeney crowd, Lefebre, et. al., that marginal people take serious. They just want to be holier than the Church, or at least they want to be Pope.

St. Pius X was a heretic? Pure nonsense. So is saying the same about Pio Nono, or Pius XII. Like we canonize heretics?

peace
 
Pax et Caritas;QUOTE:
Just a few things: You made note of certain of the Canons of Canon Law.

You cited Canon 2316. I have the “New Commentary on Canon Law”. The Code was revised in 1983. There is no Canon 2316. The Code goes to Canon 1752.

You better check your references. Why are all these references never true, and can’t be counted on?

I think the whole subject is distasteful. I don’t know if John Paul kissed the Koran, and why he did it, if he did.

Whatever…It was not an heretical act.

As for Mystici Corporis, the exclusion from the Body of Christ is heresy. Not Canonical heresy as found in the Code. It is utterly absurd to say that everyone is a member of the Church: Evangelicals, Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists, and every color and stripe of Christian.

Canonical heresy can only refer to members of the Catholic Church. We are not talking about a canonical crime; we are talking about the moral fault (sin) against faith, viz., the sin of heresy. These are outside of the Mystical Body, outside the Church.

No, Pius XII was referring to heretics in Mystici Corporis, i.e. those who do not profess the Catholic faith, and those who are not in communion with Rome.

This is true of the wording of Lumen Gentium.

Whether the Pope can be a heretic? I don’t even want to dwell on the possibility of an answer.

The whole crowd of Sedevacatists are off the wall, if you ask me. They fit into the Fr. Feeney crowd, Lefebre, et. al., that marginal people take serious. They just want to be holier than the Church, or at least they want to be Pope.

St. Pius X was a heretic? Pure nonsense. So is saying the same about Pio Nono, or Pius XII. Like we canonize heretics?

peace
Dear mgrfin,

The above can only be classified as a bit of an emotional rant.

quote mgrfin: “We are not talking about a canonical crime; we are talking about the moral fault (sin) against faith, viz., the sin of heresy. These are outside of the Mystical Body, outside the Church.”

No, we are talking precisely about a crime.

quote mgrfin: “Whether the Pope can be a heretic? I don’t even want to dwell on the possibility of an answer.”

But it is a question that has been dealt with by the Church? What sort of person with “theology degrees” would want to close his/her eyes to a theological question?

Unfortunately, I see your above “rant” as a lead up to “spitting the dummy” in the future and running away from the hard realities that will confront you in these type of discussions. I could be wrong now . . .

Pax

P.S. The 1917 Code of Canon Law is what is being cited in those cases where you can’t find the law.
 
No, I’m sorry, but you are wrong. It would not be the body and blood of Christ.

Look carefully at the statement that you supplied from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It is totally contradictory of :“That would be the body and blood of Christ.”
.
How does that contradict
That the consequence of Transubstantiation, as a conversion of the total substance, is the transition of the entire substance of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ,
Perhaps what you are getting at, and not doing a very good job, is that the words of consecration of the Mass today are no longer sufficient form so that the Catholic Mass is no longer valid? Is this your point? If so, you should have just said so.
 
mgrfin;3202742:
Dear mgrfin,

The above can only be classified as a bit of an emotional rant.

quote mgrfin: “We are not talking about a canonical crime; we are talking about the moral fault (sin) against faith, viz., the sin of heresy. These are outside of the Mystical Body, outside the Church.”

No, we are talking precisely about a crime.

quote mgrfin: “Whether the Pope can be a heretic? I don’t even want to dwell on the possibility of an answer.”

But it is a question that has been dealt with by the Church? What sort of person with “theology degrees” would want to close his/her eyes to a theological question?

Unfortunately, I see your above “rant” as a lead up to “spitting the dummy” in the future and running away from the hard realities that will confront you in these type of discussions. I could be wrong now . . .

Pax

P.S. The 1917 Code of Canon Law is what is being cited in those cases where you can’t find the law.
The 1917 Code was abrogated. Get a new code, or go on-line for the 1983 Code.

The Code of Canon Law regulates the action of Catholics. Penalties mentioned there refer only to Catholics.

I’ll repeat for the last time: the heresy referred to in Mystici Corporis is the moral fault of heresy, not canonical heresey.
The whole concept is grotesque. Philosophers spent time on deciding how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. That had more validity than a ‘vacant chair’.

You think I am on a rant? No. If I rant, you will know it.
Providing answers and information is a rant? St. Pius X was a heretic? - shame on you!

Keep up your waste of time posts.

peace
 
I’ll repeat for the last time: the heresy referred to in Mystici Corporis is the moral fault of heresy, not canonical heresey.
How do you know?

I have an article for you to read that should explain things for you. It was written by Fr. Harrison and is backed up the relevant canons from the 1983 code of canon law. This article supports what I wrote.

Of course, you could always reject this article and the relevant canon law, just as you did the quote I provided from a doctor of the Church since it disagrees with you. We’ll find out soon enough.
Fr. Harrison:
… It may seem incredible that the Church’s traditional law goes out of its way to make it possible for heretics, apostates, and Freemasons, among others, to be elected to the see of Peter. Shouldn’t such enemies of the Church be the first to be excluded from participation in something so sacred?

At first sight it would certainly seem so. But a moment’s reflection shows that such legislation is necessary precisely in order to protect the papacy from the calamity that sedevacantists claim has now in fact befallen it: a Church with no visible head and therefore no visible unity, a Church whose structures lie in utter chaos.

We need to remember that some offences carrying a penalty of latae sententiae excommunication, such as heresy, can be committed in great secrecy without any public knowledge of the fact. Thus, if the Church’s law required that a cardinal be free from all ecclesiastical censure in order to be eligible for the papacy, the voters in general would have no guarantee that any given candidate was not in fact ineligible because of some secret crime by which he had incurred excommunication. The voters might unwittingly carry out an invalid election, in which case the “pope” they elected would not be true pope. The invalidity of his acts would then be a kind of spiritual cancer quietly destroying the Church’s vital structures from within. The bishops appointed by him would have no true right to govern their respective dioceses. No laws he passed would be binding on the Church. In particular, the cardinals named by him would not be valid electors of a future pope. How then, if at all, could a true pope be restored? Who would be competent to decide?

When the fact of this hidden excommunication finally came to light, the resulting chaos would be unimaginable. Nobody would know with certainty who, if anyone, still had any real authority in the Church, and schism—perhaps a series of schisms—would seem inevitable. The Church’s law therefore foresees and avoids the possibility of this catastrophic situation by allowing that even a secret heretic or apostate, if elected as pope, would ascend the chair of Peter with full juridical rights over the universal Church on earth, even though at the interior, mystical level of grace he might be separated from the mystical body of Christ.

Now, if a heretic, apostate, or Freemason can be validly elected pope, then obviously he can validly remain acting as pope until he dies. The cardinals he appoints will be true cardinals, the bishops he appoints will have true jurisdiction, the saints he canonizes will be truly guaranteed to be in heaven, and the legislation by which he binds us will have to be obeyed (insofar as it does not command us to sin or do something manifestly opposed to the common good of the Church). Thus, the continuity of the universal Church will be preserved until in God’s providence a worthier pontiff is elected.

What of the case of a hypothetical pontiff who is orthodox when elected but falls into heresy during his pontificate? Does he thereby lose the papacy?.. canon law makes it clear that such a pope will not lose his power to govern the Church validly, not even by public expressions of heretical doctrine. In the 1917 Code, we find that apostates and heretics incur latae sententiae (ipso facto) excommunication (canon 2314 §1), but we need to consider other canons in order to see how excommunication relates to loss of ecclesiastical office.

Canon 2263 states that an excommunicated person, as we would expect, “is forbidden to exercise ecclesiastical offices or duties”—the first among which is, of course, the papacy. However, the next canon (2264) affirms the following: “An act of jurisdiction carried out by an excommunicated person, whether in the internal or the external forum, is illicit; and if a condemnatory or declaratory sentence has been pronounced, it is also invalid, without prejudice to canon 2261 §3; otherwise it is valid.” (The other canon cited here, 2261 §3, makes an exception to this invalidity when it is a case of an officially excommunicated priest giving absolution to someone in danger of death.)
You ought to read the entire article.

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea1.asp
 
Four_Marks;3202791:
The 1917 Code was abrogated. Get a new code, or go on-line for the 1983 Code.

The Code of Canon Law regulates the action of Catholics. Penalties mentioned there refer only to Catholics.

I’ll repeat for the last time: the heresy referred to in Mystici Corporis is the moral fault of heresy, not canonical heresey.
The whole concept is grotesque. Philosophers spent time on deciding how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. That had more validity than a ‘vacant chair’.

You think I am on a rant? No. If I rant, you will know it.
Providing answers and information is a rant? St. Pius X was a heretic? - shame on you!

Keep up your waste of time posts.

peace
No. I’ll stck to the real Code thanks.

No, it is referring to the crime of heresy. Your ridiculous comparisons are . . . well, ridiculous!

Excuse me, but you must learn to think rationally. Yes, you were on a rant. Now, what degree of rant is another question, but it definitely was a rant.

Who said St. Pius X was a heretic? Are you a lunatic, or just incapable of comprehending?

“Waste of time posts” eh? I’m beginning to think you got your “degrees in theology” from the back of a WEETIES packet.
 
How does that contradict

Perhaps what you are getting at, and not doing a very good job, is that the words of consecration of the Mass today are no longer sufficient form so that the Catholic Mass is no longer valid? Is this your point? If so, you should have just said so.
How does that contradict

GOOD GRIEF! Dealing with you is a complete and utter waste of time! Did you read my post on the “substance of a sacrament”? Did you understand it? Can’t you grasp that the “substance of a sacrament” is NOT the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Talk about the Novus Ordites and IGNORANCE of Catholicism!
 
pnewton;3202818:
How does that contradict

GOOD GRIEF! Dealing with you is a complete and utter waste of time! Did you read my post on the “substance of a sacrament”? Did you understand it? Can’t you grasp that the “substance of a sacrament” is NOT the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Talk about the Novus Ordites and IGNORANCE of Catholicism!
Now THAT is an emotional rant!

Shame on you 4mks!
 
I have asked for specific doctrines that were changed as a result of or indicated by changes in the Liturgy of the Mass.

I have not received them.
I’ve been busy. And I didn’t see you ask this either.
40.png
mgrfin:
I would appreciate hearing what are the doctrinal changes involved in turning the altar to face the people, having the Mass in the vernacular, having the Eucharist under two species, using the laity to assist with the distribution of the Eucharist, and some other minor changes I seem to remember.
I didn’t mention those things. Can you tell me about the Prayers of the Propers of the Mass? Were they changed at all? Were any prayers eliminated? Which ones? And what were the reasons given by the commission that made the changes? Did it have anything to do with beliefs?
40.png
mgrfin:
Please fill me in on the rest.
Some of this has been covered already. I’ll dig it out again.

SFD
 
Can’t you grasp that the “substance of a sacrament” is NOT the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Talk about the Novus Ordites and IGNORANCE of Catholicism!
No one is twisting your keyboard. When you come to a Catholic forum, do you not expect the Catholics here to defend our faith? You have made it clear that our Mass is not your Mass, our Pope is not your Pope, our Chuch is not your Church. We may not be following the true Pope according to you and attending the true Mass, according to you, so do not be surprised that we recognize that the reverse is true.
 
No one is twisting your keyboard. When you come to a Catholic forum, do you not expect the Catholics here to defend our faith? You have made it clear that our Mass is not your Mass, our Pope is not your Pope, our Chuch is not your Church. We may not be following the true Pope according to you and attending the true Mass, according to you, so do not be surprised that we recognize that the reverse is true.
Four Marks claims to be a Catholic. Maybe he is a seminarian in one of those apostate outposts.

He does come under false pretenses. He is not a Catholic, not at least any one that we would recognize. Maybe he was ordained by one of those Apostate bishops.

Who knows? He does seem to be a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Now, he has revealed himself to us.

peace
 
The real Code is 1983, which you apparently refuse to recognize.The 1917 Code no longer exists. I assume you understand what ‘abrogated’ means.
mgrfin,

You must admit that 1917 code was certainly in force up to the promulgation of the 1983 code. The old code wasn’t abrogated until 1983…oh, wait a minute…maybe Benedict XVI will tell us that the old code was never abrogated after all. That’s a possibility…isn’t it? 😉

SFD
 
SFD said:

must admit that 1917 code was certainly in force up to the promulgation of the 1983 code. The old code wasn’t abrogated until 1983…oh, wait a minute…maybe Benedict XVI will tell us that the old code was never abrogated after all. That’s a possibility…isn’t it? ;

SFD

No, it isn’t. Apparently all the Vacant Seat people can’t afford a new Code, or it doesn’t justify their thoughts, and their references don’t work any more.

This Code has been around for 25 years. Don’t you think you should go out to buy one by now?

SFD, are you one of those vacant chair people? Place seems to be crawling with them.

Flying under false colors.

peace
 
Four Marks claims to be a Catholic. He is not a Catholic, not at least any one that we would recognize.
mgrfin,

You have not shown him to be a non-Catholic…and I thought you fellows were against laymen making any judgments anyway.

Btw, you admit above that there is a type of Catholic that you wouldn’t recognise; “any one that we would recognize”. These are words that a schismatic might use…are you one who breaks communion with other Catholics? That’s a definition of schism…if you didn’t know. 🙂

Why don’t you fellows stop accusing others of “you’re not a Catholic” and get to the real arguments.

SFD
 
No, it isn’t. Apparently all the Vacant Seat people can’t afford a new Code, or it doesn’t justify their thoughts, and their references don’t work any more.

This Code has been around for 25 years. Don’t you think you should go out to buy one by now?

SFD, are you one of those vacant chair people? Place seems to be crawling with them.

Flying under false colors.

peace
mgrfin,

You can’t even address what is said to you. Bye.

SFD
 
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