Sedevacantism and PIUS IX

[mgrfin]

Gentlemen:

Let’s go back to the original post here (quoted above):

If any Catholic becomes a public heretic he is no longer a member of the Church. That is simply because a public heretic is by definition outside the Church.

After that, this post goes south rather quickly.

Pope Pius IX is one of the great heroes of our Traditional resistance, an inveterate and uncompromising enemy of all liberalism.

VARC tells us he is leaving the Catholic Church for the Schismatic and Heretical Orthodox church. If VARC actually joins the Orthodox, then you can no longer call him a heretic nor schismatic…but a member of the Church in “imperfect communion”. He will hold erroneous and heretical doctrines as an Orthodox…that he did not hold as a Traditional Catholic.

You all might want to stop for a few moments and have a think on this one.

SFD

The Church doesn’t like us calling anyone a heretic anymore.

Secondly, to be outside the Church, you don’t have to commit a formal public heresy. The Code of Canon law which rules ‘crimes and penalties and such’ applies to Catholics only.

A Protestant cannot be excommunicated, and no penalty can be imposed on them.

Those are outside the Mystical Body of Christ are those ‘heretics’, not those who have commited public heresy, but moral heresy.

You have to get this straight. You seem to refuse to do so.

peace

 

[cam100]

I don’t know where you guys don’t have a copy of the 1983 Code. It seems to be the ‘mark of Cain’. If they haven’t the Code, they seem to back up apostate Vacant Chair theology.

Harrison quotes canons 2263 - there isn’t a 2263 in the Code of Canon Law.

Maybe he is not an apostate, degree and all, but he sure is an ultra right-wing conservative.

peace

FR. Harrison quotes from the 1917 code, as do I, when we are arguing against a sdevacantist perspesctive. This is for two reasons. First, most sedevacantists claim that all popes since Pius XII or John Paul XXIII have been invalid, so quoting from the 1983 code would be pointless, since they don’t accept its authority. You need to argue from what they believe. Second, if we are arguing about a pope’s validity before 1983, the 1917 code was still in effect.

 

[mgrfin]

I am over-joyed that you find me unacceptable. I do not want to be praised by you in any way.

I am happy, and this morning I praised God, and thanked him for your hatred towards me, and questioning my “Catholicism”.

You are guilty not just of snobbery - which of course you are - but of disbelief. Your gnosticism may appeal to a few, but you are chasing smoke puffs.

Denigrating such outstanding and saintly men like Paul VI, and John XXIII, and Benedict XVI, Pio Nono, a St. Pius X marks you for who and what you are.

God have mercy on your faithlessness.

 

[mgrfin]

mgrfin;3203129:

You are exposing yourself for what you really are. To write “Charity, my friend, charity.” is to be writing in a mocking manner. You appear to be more interested in faking you have charity than real charity.

You are not God, and you are not in a position to judge my motivation, my charity or lack there of.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

FR. Harrison quotes from the 1917 code, as do I, when we are arguing against a sdevacantist perspesctive. This is for two reasons. First, most sedevacantists claim that all popes since Pius XII or John Paul XXIII have been invalid, so quoting from the 1983 code would be pointless, since they don’t accept its authority. You need to argue from what they believe. Second, if we are arguing about a pope’s validity before 1983, the 1917 code was still in effect.

And what Code was Robert Bellarmine quoting from? You don’t know and don’t have a copy.

The whole topic, that a Pope could be a heretic, and that some were, and therefore were invalid popes - the whole subject is laughable. Like we don’t have other things to do with our time.

And as far as changes in the liturgy: so they turned the altars around, and omitted the Confession at the foot of the altar, and they added some more scriptural readings, and they eliminated the “last Gospel” reading from John 1 - we should become apostates for that?

You have very little faith in the Holy Spirit protecting our Church from error.

Credo…in unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam ecclesiam…

 

[cam100]

And what Code was Robert Bellarmine quoting from? You don’t know and don’t have a copy.

There was no Code of Canon Law at the time of St. Robert.

The whole topic, that a Pope could be a heretic, and that some were, and therefore were invalid popes - the whole subject is laughable. Like we don’t have other things to do with our time.

“Laughable”? I think it’s an error that ought to be addressed, not laughed at.

And as far as changes in the liturgy: so they turned the altars around, and omitted the Confession at the foot of the altar, and they added some more scriptural readings, and they eliminated the “last Gospel” reading from John 1 - we should become apostates for that?

You have very little faith in the Holy Spirit protecting our Church from error.

What do you mean “You have very little faith…” ???

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

mgrfin,

I’m surprise to see you slander the name of a goof Priest like Fr. Harrison, by implying that he is close to be an “apostate” (do you even know what that term means).

I’m curious, do you believe that each man has the right to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he considers true? Based on what you have been taught, and what you believe, does man have that right?

 

[mgrfin]

cam100;QUOTE:

Of course there was. The Code can be traced back to 1234.

And origins further back than that.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

mgrfin,

What would you say if I produced a quote from Bugnini’s own autobiography in which he (Bignini himself) admits that he was removed from his position by the Paul VI because he (Paul VI) was give a dosier that “proved” that Annibali Bugnini was a Freemason?

Produce what you want. This is a foolish, silly issue, and you keep it up because your little group of Vacant Seat people have to have some argument for staying to the right of the Roman Catholic Church.

Illicitly consecrated bishop(s), and priests, and using seminarians in this false theology, and history running this thread with falsehood and lies.

The whole thing is just distasteful to right thinking people.

We pray for your return to the one true Church, which is left of where you are. Of course, anyone could be left of where you are.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

mgrfin,

I’m surprise to see you slander the name of a goof Priest like Fr. Harrison, by implying that he is close to be an “apostate” (do you even know what that term means).

I’m curious, do you believe that each man has the right to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he considers true? Based on what you have been taught, and what you believe, does man have that right?

Slander? I never slandered him.

Of course, what he wrote about Archbishop Bugnini wasn’t slander.

What are you smoking anyway?

peace

 

[mgrfin]

Catholicity? You mean extreme, right-wing conservatism?

You have presented your views, and quoted all your sources. Isn’t it time to close the thread?

Hopefully the Forum Adminstrator will agree that this is fruitless, and going nowhere, and the thread should be closed.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

Yes, I know what apostacy is.

The Code of Canon Law defines it as the total repudiation of the Christian faith. (Canon 751) 1983

I recognize what conscience is. And I believe everyone has the freedom and the right to go to hell if that is what they want.

peace

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Produce what you want. This is a foolish, silly issue, and you keep it up because your little group of Vacant Seat people have to have some argument for staying to the right of the Roman Catholic Church.

I’m not a Sedevacantist.

Did you see my question in the second paragraph of post #204. I’m interested in your reply.

 

[mgrfin]

If there are any errors on the article, please point them out. But keep in mind that I was only using the article to show that an occult (secret) heretic does not cease to be a member of the body of the Church, nor does he lose jurisdiction, which is a point that even Sedevacantists readily admit.

You are wrong, and still persist in your error. Moral heresy puts a person outside the Church, and outside the Church there is no salvation.

A legal heresy, the crime defined in Canon law, is not what Pius XII was referring to. Nor, Lumen Gentium, nor Benedict XVI.

You keep up this fiction of a heresy having to be a public crime to put someone outside the church. Bellarmine did not have the benefit of Mystici Corporis.

peace

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

You are wrong, and still persist in your error. Moral heresy puts a person outside the Church, and outside the Church there is no salvation.

I don’t want to criticize you, but you seem extremely uneducated in the finer points of theology and ecclesiology.

What I wrote was correct. I backed it up with a quote from a doctor of the Church who himself was quoting other authorities. I also backed it up with the article by Fr. Harrison. I have no doubt I can find additional evidence to support what I said, but it is probably a waste of time, since you will probably reject it as well.

The teaching of St. Robert Bellarmine, in which he distinguishes between the internal and external forum, or “body” and “soul” which was the term I used, is Catholic teaching.

The Church has a body and a soul. A secret heretic is cut off from the soul of the Church, but not the body. He is cut off from the body of the Church when he is excommunicated or leaves publicly and willingly.

You should really look into things before you take such a bold stance and embarrass yourself.

 

[SFD]

The Church doesn’t like us calling anyone a heretic anymore.

Secondly, to be outside the Church, you don’t have to commit a formal public heresy. The Code of Canon law which rules ‘crimes and penalties and such’ applies to Catholics only.

A Protestant cannot be excommunicated, and no penalty can be imposed on them.

Those are outside the Mystical Body of Christ are those ‘heretics’, not those who have commited public heresy, but moral heresy.

You have to get this straight. You seem to refuse to do so.

peace

mgrfin,

You really don’t have any idea what you are talking about. There’s no point in responding to you in any detail.

SFD

 

[mgrfin]

Pax et Caritas;QUOTE:

I’m not embarassed.

St. Robert never said anything about what Pius XII had to say

You are wrong about 'outside the church…"

Fr. Harrison was never asked about the question of Mystici Corporis in the article you cite. He didn’t even have available a current Code. Some theologian.

You resort to personal attacks, which only make me look fabulous, and you the more foolish.

How do you know I don’t have a J.C.D. or Licentiate from the Gregorianum, and graduated with ‘magna cum laude’?

You don’t know to whom you speak.

keep it up.
peace

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I’m not embarassed.

St. Robert never said anything about what Pius XII had to say

You are wrong about 'outside the church…"

Fr. Harrison was never asked about the question of Mystici Corporis in the article you cite. He didn’t even have available a current Code. Some theologian.

I really don’t know why you keep bringing up Mystici Corporis Christi, as if it is the only document that says a heretic is not a member of the Church. There are many quotes from Popes that say the same thing.

Regarding the use of the 1917 code of canon law. I have a question for you: What code of canon law was in use when John Paul II was elected Pope in 1978? Was it the 1917 code, or the 1983 code that did not yet exist? If you are debating whether or not his election to the Papacy was valid, which code applies?

You resort to personal attacks, which only make me look fabulous.

Then you should thank me.

How do you know I don’t have a J.C.D. or Licentiate from the Gregorianum, and graduated with ‘magna cum laude’?

How do you know I don’t?

You don’t know to whome you speak.

keep it up.
peace

True, and neither do you.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

mgrfin,

I’m curious why you didn’t answer the question I asked in post #204 (second paragraph).

 

[SFD]

mgrfin:

How do you know I don’t have a J.C.D. or Licentiate from the Gregorianum, and graduated with ‘magna cum laude’?

We don’t. We only know you by what you post.

SFD