Sedevacantist... serious or without any merit?

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No, no, I do not believe you have asked this in the wrong forum…simply of the wrong informants. They are schismatic.
Think of schism as a tourniquet…stopping the flow of blood…in this case Grace.
Think of Heresy as amputation…if you leave the tourniquet on too long amputation will become necessary…No?

Now…ask the question of a theologian in union with Rome…you may get an answer that really helps instead of putting you in jeopardy.
Are you worried about the state of my soul? How might understanding the Sedavacantist way of thinking put me in jeapardy? I don’t think it is possible for me to gain a thorough understanding of the divisions within the Church (my goal) without hearing from both sides. As I have written, I read the official Roman documents. I have yet to meet a Sedavacantist that is able to answer my other questions, though. Don’t assume that, if I do find one that will answer, that I will necessarily agree with them!
 
Are you worried about the state of my soul? How might understanding the Sedavacantist way of thinking put me in jeapardy? **I don’t think it is possible for me to gain a thorough understanding of the divisions within the Church (my goal) without hearing from both sides. As I have written, I read the official Roman documents. ** I have yet to meet a Sedavacantist that is able to answer my other questions, though. !
:confused: The state of your soul was not the intent of my last post:confused:

The Church and Her teaching ministers HAVE answered this query extensively.
For myself, I do not need to put my head into the lions mouth to believe or understand that he has teeth and is very dangerous…remember…he is seeking souls to devour.
“Don’t assume that, if I do find one that will answer, that I will necessarily agree with them”

This was never an assumption on my part:tsktsk:

Their way of thinking is in direct disobedience to Mother Church…
If it is their poison you are wanting to taste…:eek:
 
:confused: The state of your soul was not the intent of my last post:confused:

The Church and Her teaching ministers HAVE answered this query extensively.
For myself, I do not need to put my head into the lions mouth to believe or understand that he has teeth and is very dangerous…remember…he is seeking souls to devour.
“Don’t assume that, if I do find one that will answer, that I will necessarily agree with them”

This was never an assumption on my part:tsktsk:

Their way of thinking is in direct disobedience to Mother Church…
If it is their poison you are wanting to taste…:eek:
I have had recourse to study a great variety of heresies, both in the early centuries to the present. I have only learned about the existence of Sedavacantist recently, so this is a new study for me. I think it is possible to understand the elements of a poison without having to taste it. If you are not concerned about my soul, then why did you say I would put myself in jeapardy by hearing form the non-authoritative side?
 
I have had recourse to study a great variety of heresies, both in the early centuries to the present. I have only learned about the existence of Sedavacantist recently, so this is a new study for me. I think it is possible to understand the elements of a poison without having to taste it. ** If you are not concerned about my soul, then why did you say I would put myself in jeapardy by hearing form the non-authoritative side**?
Exact quote please, in context…
This paraphrasing leads to misunderstanding…and…well… we all see from these posts where that leads to:rolleyes:
 
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No, no, I do not believe you have asked this in the wrong forum…simply of the wrong informants. They are schismatic.
Think of schism as a tourniquet…stopping the flow of blood…in this case Grace.
Think of Heresy as amputation…if you leave the tourniquet on too long amputation will become necessary…No?
Now…ask the question of a theologian in union with Rome…you may get an answer that really helps instead of putting you in jeopardy.
Think of what some of the Canonists say [edited by moderator]:
F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicum, 7:398, 1943)
Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)
De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded ‘probabiliter’] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)
 
The schism of sadevacantism is as it were an illness in the Body of Christ…not yet cut off completely.

To understand the illness I can listen to those inflicted and be sympathetic. If those ill will not take their medicine…than what? All their complaining does no good.

How do I know and recognise their symptoms…uh…from a “Doctor of the Church”😃

If I were aware of a contagious illness I would not put myself in jeopardy by deliberately contacting those afflicted. I would make sure I had taken all the necessary precautions first.
This was and remains the intent of my use of the word **🙂 **

St. Ignatius of Antioch speaks strongly against such dangerous conversations.
Read his epistle to the Church at Corinth and be edified:thumbsup:
 
Can I please have some of the Catholics ( and orthodox ) explain to me if the sedevacantists in the Catholic realm have any points that should be taken seriously.
No, they have none.
From some of the limited material I have read, they seem to have some valid points regarding the vacancy of the see of Rome.
All heresy or schism has some truth in it. That’s what you’re seeing. The devil always clothes a lie with some truth in order to make it it believable; otherwise, it will not be accepted because it is the property of the intellect to assent only to truth, whether real or apparent.
I understood it differently. It seemed to me that they affirm the infallibility of the see of Peter (that is why they have not all become Orthodox) but that they consider that the See has been vacant. I don’t think they see themselves as being in disobedience or disagreemtne with the Pope, since they don’t recognize him as a valid pope. However, if I misunderstand this, please someone let me know, because I am very new in my study on this point.
They say they believe in the infallibility of the pope and the indefectibility of the Church. But in effect, because they believe the papal seat to have been vacant for 50 years, they do not believe the promise of Christ to be with His Church to the end of time and that the gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against the rock of Peter.

They have taken it upon themselves to determine the orthodoxy of the pope. This standpoint has awful consequences. Just think: if every time the pope declared a dogma, the lay faithful took it upon themselves to determine if the pope were a heretic or not, the Church would get absolutely nowhere! There is absolutely no reason to have a pope if we, the Taught Church, have the right to judge the pope’s orthodoxy like the sedevacantists are doing!

The whole reason Jesus established the papacy, the rock of Peter, was so that we could have an infallible guide. This sedevacantist theory is just nuts! If it were true, you have no reason to be a Catholic! There is no assurance that you are on the right track since you have no rock on which to build your faith.

I do want to make a gentle warning to those of you who are concerned that the arguments of the sedevacantists have some merit: pray for faith and do not get too curious or concerned with their arguments. St. Pius X, in his encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis (On the Doctrines of the Modernists), says, “Curiosity by itself, if not prudently regulated, suffices to explain all errors.” If you do not want to fall into heresy yourself, you must prudently regulate your curiosity. In other words, pray for faith, get educated in your faith by reading the Catechism and other orthodox materials, and remember that it is possible to be on the right track without knowing all the answers to the arguments. Keep humility at the forefront when engaging in debates with sedevacantists; realize that you don’t need to know all the answers, that it is your faith that matters.
F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicum, 7:398, 1943)
If we cannot regard sedevacantists as schismatics because they refuse obedience to the pope on account of doubting his validity, we are forced to regard them as heretics. Because in practice (since they believe the papal seat has been vacant for 50 years) they believe not the words of Christ: “Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” (Matt. 28:20) “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18)

Maria
 
icxc nika and guanophore,

One little tip: If you really want answers to your questions, make them specific. For example, it’s best not to just ask, “Do the sedevacantist arguments have any merit?” It’s far better to bring up a particular sedevacantist argument you’re having trouble with; otherwise, we can only give you general answers, which may not really address your concern.

Maria
 
icxc nika and guanophore,

One little tip: If you really want answers to your questions, make them specific. For example, it’s best not to just ask, “Do the sedevacantist arguments have any merit?” It’s far better to bring up a particular sedevacantist argument you’re having trouble with; otherwise, we can only give you general answers, which may not really address your concern.

Maria
I don’t mind starting with an open ended question. It lays the ground work for a few more things that I have questions with.

However, I will be probing a bit more with the specifics to their claims…

Thanks to all.
 
icxc nika and guanophore,

One little tip: If you really want answers to your questions, make them specific. For example, it’s best not to just ask, “Do the sedevacantist arguments have any merit?” It’s far better to bring up a particular sedevacantist argument you’re having trouble with; otherwise, we can only give you general answers, which may not really address your concern.

Maria
Ok, I will bring something more specific. I was told by a Sedavacantist that, since I was attending a NO Mass, that I was a modernist (I later found out that translates heretic) and that I had been totally misled in matters of faith by modernism and ecumenism. I learned that this is because they reject the changes implemented by Vatican II. However, in listening to EWTN and father Groschel, it seems to me that they are not the only Catholics who are scandalized by the NO masses becoming “entertainment”. I guess they also disapprove of the guitar at mass? I actually can understand why they would object to the modern dancer in the leotard who performed the homily with silent dance…
 
:confused: ok… I know I really can put myself in the dumbest situations… I’m just a plain ol Catholic, I believe in the Pope and everything, I like to offer up prayer for the poor souls in purgatory…so , how did I manage to come upon a web site, through a link… join for a year, and THEN find out it wasn’t a good thing to do… it’s called the Purgatorian Archconfraternity Talk about buyer beware! should I email them and tell them to cancel it ? I don’t want to start something I know nothing about and getting on the wrong side of my guardian angel ! :bowdown2: or God ! :bigyikes:
 
:confused: ok… I know I really can put myself in the dumbest situations… I’m just a plain ol Catholic, I believe in the Pope and everything, I like to offer up prayer for the poor souls in purgatory…so , how did I manage to come upon a web site, through a link… join for a year, and THEN find out it wasn’t a good thing to do… it’s called the Purgatorian Archconfraternity Talk about buyer beware! should I email them and tell them to cancel it ? I don’t want to start something I know nothing about and getting on the wrong side of my guardian angel ! :bowdown2: or God ! :bigyikes:
. They’re not Sede, but sympathetic to the SSPX…known as the orphan daughter of the Pre-VATII Church.
 
. They’re not Sede, but sympathetic to the SSPX…known as the orphan daughter of the Pre-VATII Church.
SSPX are more like run-aways than orphans. They choose to disengage from the family cause they don’t like Papa’s rules. By their own disobedience they withdrew from the family. If they ever decide to abandon their foolish pride, I am sure Papa would welcome them home.
 
SSPX are more like run-aways than orphans. They choose to disengage from the family cause they don’t like Papa’s rules. By their own disobedience they withdrew from the family. If they ever decide to abandon their foolish pride, I am sure Papa would welcome them home.
Like the prodigal son.
 
Ok, I will bring something more specific. I was told by a Sedavacantist that, since I was attending a NO Mass, that I was a modernist (I later found out that translates heretic) and that I had been totally misled in matters of faith by modernism and ecumenism. I learned that this is because they reject the changes implemented by Vatican II.
However, in listening to EWTN and father Groschel, it seems to me that they are not the only Catholics who are scandalized by the NO masses becoming “entertainment”. I guess they also disapprove of the guitar at mass? I actually can understand why they would object to the modern dancer in the leotard who performed the homily with silent dance…
  1. They reject more than just Vatican II; they reject the papacies of Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI.
  2. SSPX could be said to be scandalized by the NO, but not sedevacantists. Sedevacantists believe the last five popes were heretics just for introducing/approving a new Mass, whether it has dancing, guitar-music, etc. or not. In effect, they believe succeeding popes are subject to St. Pius V since they cite St. Pius V as having promulgated the Tridentine Mass “in perpetuity.” What they’re forgetting is that promulgation of a rite is a disciplinary act and thus not positively infallible, so that future popes are not bound by a preceding pope’s disciplinary actions.
  3. Dancing is expressly forbidden in the NO Masses; where it exists, it’s a grave abuse (read: mortal sin).
Don’t hesitate to ask more questions or to ask me to clarify something I’ve said.

Maria
 
That’s alotta rejectin goin on. One thing they don’t reject is Church BINGO. Fur that I’m thankful. It was Pre-VatII so’s it’s OK.
 
Here’s what it comes down to:

If you don’t think Pope Benedict XVI is Bishop of Rome, you’re a heretic according to him (and his friends), and he’s a heretic according to you (and your friends).

Where you want to come down on that equation is up to you.

If you really need more “nuts and bolts” to the equation, I can only encourage you to move to a parish that is a TLM, and worship to your heart’s content. Otherwise, you only have your self to blame, because it’s not as if the Church has outlawed the TLM - as a matter of fact, I, personally, wouldn’t look down upon you if you went to a SSPX chapel…
 
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