Sedevacantists answer to Church restoration?

[I_Believe]

**

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The Sede position is but one way to reconcile the near universal rise of evil WITHIN this New Order church’s “clergy” i.e. unprecedented embezzlements in size, frequency & longevity, rape of same-sex youth , the lack of action, except protection & coverup, on these matters by its highest leaders, the collapse of its religious vocations, the vulcanic explosion of divorce under the guise of anullments , its friendship and fascination toward the sin that cries out to heaven for vengence, the man centered theology of its members & leaders, its distorted “worship” services, its Masonic inspired edifices, its idea of salvation for anti-Christ religions, its constant double-speak and finally the overthrow of all traditional catholicism and the practices that sustained and grew the Catholic Church for so many centuries.**

I don’t get it big Dan.

If the Church is all that, it surely isn’t the one Peter established. So that leaves the Protestants. Well, we can’t lean on them because their founders left the Church. Oh wait, there is the SSPX and the independent Catholic groups. They got their ducks in a row ! But wait, they left the Church too. What are we gonna do ?
Boys, we’re in a tight spot.

TNT are you saying the gates of hell have prevailed or what ?

 

[TNT]

I don’t get it big Dan.
If the Church is all that, it surely isn’t the one Peter established. So that leaves the Protestants. Well, we can’t lean on them because their founders left the Church. Oh wait, there is the SSPX and the independent Catholic groups. They got their ducks in a row ! But wait, they left the Church too. What are we gonna do ?
Boys, we’re in a tight spot.
TNT are you saying the gates of hell have prevailed or what ?

RE: **
If the Church is all that, it surely isn’t the one Peter established.
One step forward.
So that leaves the Protestants.
One step backward.
Oh wait, there is the SSPX and the independent Catholic groups.
One step forward.
Now here’s what your catechism says:
675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial** that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution [most think in terms of bloody martyring, but that is not what is to happen. The persecution is not against individuals, but the Body of Christ, i.e. The Church as an a Divine Institution.] that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth ****[The truth in this case is the TRUTH, as in I am the Way and the Truth…Jesus.]. The supreme** religious deception is that of the Antichrist, [not a person as most assume, but]** a pseudo-messianism**** by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh**.
So far so good.
We know it is going to happen, because it is a “must”.
We know it will be a “final** trial**”, or testing, and, none will come after it.
The persecution is against the Catholic Church, not any Protestant or other sect.
What Faith will be shaken or even lost?
Well, there are 3 aspects:

1. The belief in the truth and/or accuracy of Divine revelation.
2. The belief in the Catholic Church’s moral Laws.
3. The belief in the only true form of worship to their Creator.
   There are sub-beliefs but the above covers them.

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The persecution has as its objective, “religious deception” on a massive scale.
Protestants are not the target, they have been living a deception for centuries, and most are quite comfortable in it.
The Catholic is the Target…you, me, and all the catholic world.
One way to propagate such an unprecedented deception would be to set up an ape church of the Catholic one and pose it as the catholic church. Then adjust it in the eyes of the believers to get the greatest number to accept it as the catholic institution. This is done in part by ongoing doublespeak and placating the wary.

When that is accomplished then the “supreme” deception is introduced.
This is where we are now, at the Introduction of the Supreme deception.

To be Continued……

 

[TMC]

RE: **
If the Church is all that, it surely isn’t the one Peter established.
One step forward.
So that leaves the Protestants.
One step backward.
Oh wait, there is the SSPX and the independent Catholic groups.
One step forward.
Now here’s what your catechism says:
675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial** that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution [most think in terms of bloody martyring, but that is not what is to happen. The persecution is not against individuals, but the Body of Christ, i.e. The Church as an a Divine Institution.] that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth ****[The truth in this case is the TRUTH, as in I am the Way and the Truth…Jesus.]. The supreme** religious deception** is that of the Antichrist, [not a person as most assume, but*]*

** a pseudo-messianism**** by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh**.
So far so good.
We know it is going to happen, because it is a “must”.
We know it will be a “final** trial**”, or testing, and, none will come after it.
The persecution is against the Catholic Church, not any Protestant or other sect.
What Faith will be shaken or even lost?
Well, there are 3 aspects:

1. The belief in the truth and/or accuracy of Divine revelation.
2. The belief in the Catholic Church’s moral Laws.
3. The belief in the only true form of worship to their Creator.
   There are sub-beliefs but the above covers them.

---

The persecution has as its objective, “religious deception” on a massive scale.
Protestants are not the target, they have been living a deception for centuries, and most are quite comfortable in it.
The Catholic is the Target…you, me, and all the catholic world.
One way to propagate such an unprecedented deception would be to set up an ape church of the Catholic one and pose it as the catholic church. Then adjust it in the eyes of the believers to get the greatest number to accept it as the catholic institution. This is done in part by ongoing doublespeak and placating the wary.

When that is accomplished then the “supreme” deception is introduced.
This is where we are now, at the Introduction of the Supreme deception.

To be Continued……

It’s very interesting to me that you accept the Church’s teachings on the final trial but not the Church’s teachings on what these means. Do you think the Church accidentally got these words right, but doesn’t really understand what they mean?

 

[TNT]

It’s very interesting to me that you accept the Church’s teachings on the final trial but not the Church’s teachings on what these means. Do you think the Church accidentally got these words right, but doesn’t really understand what they mean?

Not at all:
In ref to shaking the faith of believers they ref
"LK 18:8: I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth? "
“MT 24:12: And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.”

In ref to persecution of the church they ref
“LK 21:12: But before all these [end time] things, they will lay their hands upon you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, dragging you before kings and governors, for my name’s sake.”

This BEFORE has indeed already happened.And has happened before the ultimate persecution AFTER that.

“JN 15:19-20: If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.”

It either means only those desciples He addressing, or all future successors in which case it may include the entire church and its faithful members.
I submit there is no conflict at all, as the Church is the Mystical Body of the Master. There is no greater persecution of the Faithful than to eclipse their entire church.

In ref to the final antichrist as a false ISM they ref
"2TH 2:4-12: This is a long set of verses, but I offered no interpretation from the the catechism which literally states it to be an ISM as opposed to just one person.

“2JN 7: For yourselves know perfectly, that the day of the Lord shall so come, as a thief in the night. 3 For when** they shall say, peace** and security; then shall sudden destruction come upon them, as the pains upon her that is with child, and they shall not escape.”

“2JN 2:22: Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father;” (The vs 23 was left out because it would point straight at the Jewish religion as well as Islam). Ok, it was just an oversight. But it does add descriptive value to the antichrist.

Notice that the catechism which clearly states that the antichrist is in the FORM of a Messianism. not person:
“The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, **a pseudo-messianism **by which man glorifies himself …”
Yet their bible verses refer to a person or group of persons.

So, I do not see any dicotomy in my post & the catechism.

 

[TMC]

Notice that the catechism which clearly states that the antichrist is in the FORM of a Messianism. not person:
“The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, **a pseudo-messianism **by which man glorifies himself …”
Yet their bible verses refer to a person or group of persons.

So, I do not see any dicotomy in my post & the catechism.

OK. But you have been a bit cryptic with us, don’t you agree? I take you to mean that the Church is become the Anti-Christ, or if you prefer, that entity which holds itself out as the Catholic Church has become (or is becoming?) the Anti-Christ. If this is not what you mean please let me know because that is what I am inferring from your posts.

 

[jj2011]

I’m not saying it does. But the very point of having a Holy Father is to have an anchor of communion within the visible Church. This communion is damaged, and faith severely tested, in such incidences. Is it so hard to imagine that many during this period could have concluded that they didn’t know what to believe, refused to decide, and merely prayed for the restoration of a clear successor to the Chair?

This is rather grossly misconstrues history, sir. The only outstanding point in your proposed situation is the presence of anti-popes without a true visible head, that is to say an apparent defectibility of all or nearly all the hierarchy of the Church. Historically, this would describe the Arian heresy during which it’s projected that only between 1% and 3% of bishops and clergy still practiced the authentic faith. Whole regions were completely without any juridical form of hierarchy as they’d all become heresiarchs.

Negative on that. Most SV’s think that Benedict XVI is a heretic, the new rite of episcopal consecration is invalid, and the apostolic throne has been vacant since 1958.

Under that theory, apostolic succession has stopped cold. There would be no hierarchy at all. The eastern rite bishops would be following an antipope.

A few validly consecrated Thuc line, Mendez line and SSPX bishops with supplied jurisdiction are not a church hierarchy. They pass on valid sacramental orders; that’s all.

SVism is dogmatically unsound.

 

[TMC]

Is it so hard to imagine that many during this period could have concluded that they didn’t know what to believe, refused to decide, and merely prayed for the restoration of a clear successor to the Chair?

Many felt the same after the council of Nicea, others after Constantinople, others after Ephesus. Schisms of greater and lesser size have been caused by many of the Church’s teachings. The schismatics always think they are right and the Church is wrong, or there would have never been any schisms. I don’t know why so many insist and believe that our age is somehow unique in this. (Not trying to say by this that MilesXpisti or any particular poster is schismatic.)

The thing that bothers me is that those disgreeing with the Church often are not content to say they disagree, they insist on implying (or outright saying) that the leaders they disagree with are modernists, or morally compromised, or whatever euphemism for evil they favor. I disagree with the Church on some things, as I have admitted on other threads. I don’t presume to suppose that those that disagree with me are evil, or that they even that they are rationalizing an obviously wrong position. They are just mistaken.

It seems to me that many traditionalists insist that the current Church leaders are deliberately twisting Church doctrines, or at least that they are grossly negligent. Can’t they just be wrong? If they are wrong enough that you want to start your own Church why not admit that instead of pretending that your Church is the ‘real’ Church and the the one billion people that hold to the Roman pontiff are trying to highjack your religion?

 

[jj2011]

Sedevacantists don’t believe we currently have a Pope; they don’t believe that post Vatican II ordinations are valid for Cardinals/Bishops/Priests. They don’t believe Blessed Pope Benedict XVI is a pope, they only recognize him as a Bishop because that was his last valid ordination which took place pre-Vatican II.

Because it is said that evil will never completely take over the church what is the Sedevacantists solution to restoration?

It is my understanding that they believe that there are still a few valid cardinals in the Vatican who received their ordination pre-Vatican II. They believe that some day one of these cardinals will one day be elected Pope at which time they (Sedevacantists) will return in full communion with Rome.

This idea may not have sounded so far fetched 20 years or so ago when these cardinals were younger but now Sedevacantists are looking more and more stupid.

Is there some other position on this subject that Sedevacantists hold that i am not aware of? What are your thoughts on this?

The reason I’m asking is my wife is a former Sedevacantist and I have thankfully shown her the light but she still gets A LOT of pressure from her family and friends who are still Sedevacantists.

Stand up to them on dogma. Actually Benedict XVI was consecrated in the new rite so they would consider him just a priest. I’m not aware of any Cardinals still alive from the Pius XII era, so the sacred college is-- on their theories-- exstinct, and papal succession has stopped.

In the really old days, the Roman clergy could elect a pope, but which clergy? There really are no Roman clergy on the SV hypothesis, or they too will be exstinct soon.

Further, the wittier sedevacantist writers like Fr. Anthony Cekeda ridicule the idea of a “conclave” to elect a trad pope. Their theories imply that papal succession has stopped and can’t be recovered.

In short, SVism leads to so many absurdities and heresies that you can confront even its more learned proponents with considerable confidence.

 

[TNT]

OK. But you have been a bit cryptic with us, don’t you agree? I take you to mean that the Church is become the Anti-Christ, or if you prefer, that entity which holds itself out as the Catholic Church has become (or is becoming?) the Anti-Christ. If this is not what you mean please let me know because that is what I am inferring from your posts.

That’s the point.
It would indeed be the Supreme deception. And, the only deception that would include the greatest number possible to be deceived…nearly the whole catholic membership.
By any standard, would that not be a Supreme Deception?
If not, then what would be?
It also coincides perfectly with the LK18:8 that they reference:
"LK 18:8: I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth? "

ps
It’s interesting that you are the only poster willing to engage your own catechism. The rest seem to be content to throw out a euphemism and depart. (Are they the front line of the deceived?)
Thank you again.
We haven’t even gotten to Par 677 yet.

 

[TNT]

…
This is where we are now, at the Introduction of the Supreme deception.

To be Continued……

Continued:
Now here again is what your catechism says:

****677 **The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.578 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.579 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.580

**IN BRIEF **
**680 **Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ’s kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.

So, for those who think that the SEDE’s need to produce some impossible popup pope in the future, you are not looking at your own catechism.
The Final SUPREME (CCC) deception is in full ascendency. The Catholic Church is moving into eclipse. That is, The Catholic church is currently "following her Lord in his death…"
It goes on to cover the apparent lack of restoration of the Catholic from this death blow:
**not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy **but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
It goes on to further relate about how the church will be restored or triumph, and WHEN:
The triumph of Christ’s kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.

This is where we are today; In the "ONE last assault by the powers of evil."

In Summary, there will be no popup pope to restore the Catholic Church. The SUPREME deception will prevent it and will deceive nearly every Catholic with it first.

So, for all you VAT II religionists. Pick up that CCC and read. Plan on how you will not be caught in the SUPREME Deception…or more likely, how you will get out of it

The End.

**

 

[MilesXpisti]

Negative on that. Most SV’s think that Benedict XVI is a heretic, the new rite of episcopal consecration is invalid, and the apostolic throne has been vacant since 1958.

Under that theory, apostolic succession has stopped cold. There would be no hierarchy at all. The eastern rite bishops would be following an antipope.

Ummm…no. There are still many bishops that were ordained using the old Rite. There is nothing preventing them from using it in the future.

jj2011:

A few validly consecrated Thuc line, Mendez line and SSPX bishops with supplied jurisdiction are not a church hierarchy. They pass on valid sacramental orders; that’s all.

SVism is dogmatically unsound.

It might be unsettling (which it surely would be), but there is not “minimum order” requirement for the number of prelates when dealing with indefectibility. So long as some individuals somewhere hold to the faith, whatever you hold that to be, the faith survives. It once resided in a pope and his eleven bishops, and longstanding dogmatic theology has stated again and again that there is nothing preventing a Pope from falling into heresy and ceasing to be the Pontiff.