See the Smithsonian Letter on the Book of Mormon.

[lax16]

Is it?

Let us compare apples to apples, sir.

Many of the locations of the Bible are identifiable…why? Because people have continually lived in them from the beginning, with no interuptions of any great length of time.

To compare like to like, we would have to have the variables the same. What are the BoM variables…that is, IF IT WERE TRUE, what has happened?

1. the people who wrote it and saved the records were pretty much wiped out, and the culture destroyed.
2. it was around 1500 years before any record regarding these peoples and cultures was found.
3. There was no continuous record keeping from that time to this one.

Does the bible have any similar groups or places?
Yes, actually…how about Sodom and Gommorah? Mt. Arrarat? Bethany? Mt. Sinai?

We STILL don’t really know where they are. Modern science has come very close to figuring out where Sodom and Gamorrah were…sorta…but it certainly took awhile…and if that area were covered with foliage we still wouldn’t have a clue. As for the mountains…well, various people identify different ones to apply the name to. All we really know is that the famous monastary on Mt. Sinai is almost certainly on the wrong mountain.

So, personally, I think you should cut the BoM some slack. EVERY place in the BoM is in the fix that Sodom and Gamorrah (If I spell this enough different ways, ONE of them is bound to be right, right?) and the mountains are in–and quite frankly, nobody but Mormons is at all interested, or HAS been interested, in looking into the matter. Whereas people have been trying to find biblical place names for two thousand years.

…and by the way, in spite of the catagorical declaration of Constantine’s mom, we still have not confirmed where Jesus was entombed. You would think, would you not, that something this important would have been kept better track of…but a little time and a lot of having more, shall we say, immediate problems to deal with (like being the fuel for Caligula’s banquet torches)…interfered with continuous identification.

So now we have the Book of Mormon, which has a couple of problems; one related to the above, and another a matter of something else; faith vs. knowledge.

First, EVERY site in the Book of Mormon suffers from the same problems that S & G had, plus one: there was nobody around to hang onto the story that there ever were such places…in writing.

Second…in terms of knowledge vs. faith; think about this one: if even one place, ONE incident, related in the BoM were proven to exist or to have actually happened, what would that mean to the world? To Catholics?

To Protestants?

To everybody?

As a result, the standard for proof would have to be far higher than for anything found in the bible. Remember, we have the peoples who wrote the bible. Putting their beliefs into this compilation of books does not prove that those beliefs are true. However, because of the way we GOT the BoM, proving that, say…Zarahelmla existed would be proof of Mormonism, proof of Christianity and proof of God.

That’s pretty big.

Okay apples to apples.

How did the Book of Mormon people bury their dead compared with people during the same time and from their same culture?

We know that burial sites have survived for thousand of years without anyone touching them right?

 

[SirThomasMore]

Not the trade and aqueducts part!

Good point

 

[dianaiad]

I’m sorry but that argument does not work. The reason we have the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah and the Ark, even though everyone in the city died or the world (supposedly) flooded is because the opposing people survived and told the story, hence why we have it. Noah and his family or those who were against what S & G were doing passed on the stories.

And the reason we have the stories from the Book of Mormon is because people survived and told the story.

Supposedly the Native American people are descendents of the Hebrews from the bom times and area. However, they are not. DNA can prove otherwise. Further, these people would supposedly be survivors and could have stories to pass on, in favor of or more likely against, that would verify SOMETHING. But none there either. So you see, they are not the same.

If you were correct, the native American stories from the west coast would be compatible with, and linked to, the stories of those on the East coast and in the south and central Americas.

They are not.

Since they are not, then obviously it is possible for one people to live…for a very long time, even…and not be remembered by those who lived at a distance from them either by time or distance.

As to the DNA evidence, given that the people who were descended, in the main, from the Book of Mormon peoples were actually killed off, it would be quite possible that other peoples would not have the DNA you require.

 

[lax16]

And the reason we have the stories from the Book of Mormon is because people survived and told the story.

If you were correct, the native American stories from the west coast would be compatible with, and linked to, the stories of those on the East coast and in the south and central Americas.

They are not.

Since they are not, then obviously it is possible for one people to live…for a very long time, even…and not be remembered by those who lived at a distance from them either by time or distance.

As to the DNA evidence, given that the people who were descended, in the main, from the Book of Mormon peoples were actually killed off, it would be quite possible that other peoples would not have the DNA you require.

 

[aquabatix]

And the reason we have the stories from the Book of Mormon is because people survived and told the story.

If you were correct, the native American stories from the west coast would be compatible with, and linked to, the stories of those on the East coast and in the south and central Americas.

They are not.

Since they are not, then obviously it is possible for one people to live…for a very long time, even…and not be remembered by those who lived at a distance from them either by time or distance.

As to the DNA evidence, given that the people who were descended, in the main, from the Book of Mormon peoples were actually killed off, it would be quite possible that other peoples would not have the DNA you require.

This is a lot of double talk.

So people did survive and the comparision does not hold up, gotcha.

I don’t care if the East and West coast people’s stories match, all I would care about is if ANY of them have a story that relates to the BoM stories. They don’t.

It is VERY possible for one people to live and remember the stories, especially the important ones, ie the Tradition of the Church. So because they don’t remember the BoM people, they must have been THAT insignificant?!? I guess the massive wars described were only 10 people or so then…

If they were all killed off, then how is there any link to the native americans now? But wait, I thought there was survivors, double talk again. Is there ANYONE who would have a DNA link? Anyone at all???

 

[SirThomasMore]

And the reason we have the stories from the Book of Mormon is because people survived and told the story.

With all due respect, that is not really true. There are people in the middle east who have sories passed down for thousands of years. There is abolutely no one who you can point to who has stories their families have told from the Book of Mormon. All we have is a book that was allegedly translated from reformed egyptian in perfect King James English produced by a man who was known for his money-making schemes and treasure hunting. Diana, on a different note, did you ever serve a mission?

 

[Javl]

As a point of information, practically everyplace in the Bible has been identified archaeologicaly, except for the Garden of Eden ( Paradise ) and Gommorah. The Garden of Eden is thought to be due to poetic license ( agreed by all ) and Gommorah may be an extension of Sodom. The original site of Jericho, dating back to 8000BC, has been found and identified. Also, many human settlements dating back over 10000 years have been identified

And yet, dianaiad, nothing in the BoM has been discovered and identified. This leaves many of us wondering.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[dianaiad]

Diana - Somebody would have mentioned the BoM people somewhere as a cross-reference.

who? Where are there any records kept in which such mentions would be found?

Didn’t they trade with any people?

Well, I’m aware that the native American tribes traded with each other, too…but we don’t have any records of those trades, do we?

Didn’t they build aqueducts? Where are they? How did they get all of their supplies and materials?
If everyone was wiped out, then how can there be descendants?

The people who kept the records were wiped out. The people doing the wiping out were not. In fact, Mormon spent quite a few years after his people were pretty much gone hiding from, and among, the winners. Your question is somewhat strange; rather like insisting that the folks at Masada didn’t really all die because none of them survived to tell the story.

Of course, in that case two women and five children did survive—and in the case of the Book of Mormon, Mormon survived–wrote the story, hid the plates, and disappeared himself.

 

[aquabatix]

Surely the “winners” of such a great battle would have told the story and passed it on. These “winners” would associate their victory with their prosperity and fate. But I guess it still was too insignificant to mention after it happened…

 

[barnesms]

As a point of information, practically everyplace in the Bible has been identified archaeologicaly, except for the Garden of Eden ( Paradise ) and Gommorah. The Garden of Eden is thought to be due to poetic license ( agreed by all ) and Gommorah may be an extension of Sodom. The original site of Jericho, dating back to 8000BC, has been found and identified. Also, many human settlements dating back over 10000 years have been identified

And yet, dianaiad, nothing in the BoM has been discovered and identified. This leaves many of us wondering.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Do you have a reference for that Bible archeology or is that just an opinion? This would be news to the whole world.

 

[Tmaque]

Dianaiad reminds me of my 9 year old arguing with his friend that there is no Santa Claus. He so desperately wants it to be true that he comes up with the most amazing logical gymnastic moves to deflect his friends arguments. His mind is totally closed to the evidence. So is our friend Dianaiad’s.

 

[barnesms]

Surely the “winners” of such a great battle would have told the story and passed it on. These “winners” would associate their victory with their prosperity and fate. But I guess it still was too insignificant to mention after it happened…

Of the millions of books written about the “cradle of civilization”; why are there so few books describing the history of the western hemisphere? Surely all these people would have left reams of data and stories if what you allude to is true. Those dang Mormons just believe in fairy tales…except that on a relative basis we know almost nothing about the history of the ancient Americas. We know that they left what appears to be chopped of pyramids, but the peoples just disappeared and we don’t know why. Where is this plethora of information and historical facts like we have about Eastern Hemisphere?

 

[SirThomasMore]

Of the millions of books written about the “cradle of civilization”; why are there so few books describing the history of the western hemisphere? Surely all these people would have left reams of data and stories if what you allude to is true. Those dang Mormons just believe in fairy tales…except that on a relative basis we know almost nothing about the history of the ancient Americas. We know that they left what appears to be chopped of pyramids, but the peoples just disappeared and we don’t know why. Where is this plethora of information and historical facts like we have about Eastern Hemisphere?

Actually, we know where the pyramids came from. Again, you are deflecting. Instead of telling us what we can’t find (though we CAN find stuff), please explain why we do not even know what continent the Book of Mormon took place in

 

[aquabatix]

deflection and distraction are the only options left when one does not have the answer. how sad.

 

[lax16]

Of the millions of books written about the “cradle of civilization”; why are there so few books describing the history of the western hemisphere? Surely all these people would have left reams of data and stories if what you allude to is true. Those dang Mormons just believe in fairy tales…except that on a relative basis we know almost nothing about the history of the ancient Americas. We know that they left what appears to be chopped of pyramids, but the peoples just disappeared and we don’t know why. Where is this plethora of information and historical facts like we have about Eastern Hemisphere?

Are you kidding??!!

Just google “history of the western hemisphere” and “history of the ancient Americas” and you will find lots of information.

I can’t believe you said that after what I read in two minutes online…pictures included!
And museums…

 

[Javl]

Do you have a reference for that Bible archeology or is that just an opinion? This would be news to the whole world.

Try google, you tube, your local library, etc. there is much secular evidence available. There is/has been always a news item on an archaeological discovery related directly to what is/has been described in the Bible. There is much going on at present in Israel and surrounding areas. Haven’t you been keeping up with the news?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[barnesms]

Try google, you tube, your local library, etc. there is much secular evidence available. There is/has been always a news item on an archaeological discovery related directly to what is/has been described in the Bible. There is much going on at present in Israel and surrounding areas. Haven’t you been keeping up with the news?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I know this is difficult when closed minds are present, but the point I was making is that on a relative basis i.e. comparing the Eastern Hemisphere to the Western Hemisphere we know very little. Please don’t attempt to get smug or cute; it is unbecoming. The issue is to intelligently converse. Platitudes such as yours and by others does nothing to strengthen your position.

 

[SirThomasMore]

I know this is difficult when closed minds are present, but the point I was making is that on a relative basis i.e. comparing the Eastern Hemisphere to the Western Hemisphere we know very little. Please don’t attempt to get smug or cute; it is unbecoming. The issue is to intelligently converse. Platitudes such as yours and by others does nothing to strengthen your position.

That does not explain why we do not even know what continent on which the BofM took place. Wouldn’t you agree that we not only know what continent the Bible took place, we can actually walk the same streets Jesus did, yet, we cannot even p(name removed by moderator)oint on half the globe where the Book of Mormon happened. Not to be disrespectful, but we do not know where Zerehamla, or Bountiful, or any other Book of Mormon location is any more than we can find Narnia

 

[aquabatix]

I know this is difficult when closed minds are present, but the point I was making is that on a relative basis i.e. comparing the Eastern Hemisphere to the Western Hemisphere we know very little. Please don’t attempt to get smug or cute; it is unbecoming. The issue is to intelligently converse. Platitudes such as yours and by others does nothing to strengthen your position.

your right, “Mormon fairy tales” was the correct way to provoke an intelligent, openminded and fair conversation. smug?

 

[barnesms]

Actually, we know where the pyramids came from. Again, you are deflecting. Instead of telling us what we can’t find (though we CAN find stuff), please explain why we do not even know what continent the Book of Mormon took place in

Why would you say we do not even know what continent the Book of Mormon took place in? The introduction of the Book of Mormon clearly states, "It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel.

By this statement in the Book of Mormon one should assume both continents in Western Hemisphere i.e. both North and South American continents.