See the Smithsonian Letter on the Book of Mormon.

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barnesms said:
Why would you say we do not even know what continent the Book of Mormon took place in? The introduction of the Book of Mormon clearly states, "**It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas **and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel.

By this statement in the Book of Mormon one should assume both continents in Western Hemisphere i.e. both North and South American continents.
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So if the introduction to the Bible simply stated that it contained the records of the people of Asia, you would count that as definitive knowledge of where the Bible narratives took place? We would not be satisfied with that and neither would you.
 
barnesms said:
Why would you say we do not even know what continent the Book of Mormon took place in? The introduction of the Book of Mormon clearly states, "**It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas **and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel.

By this statement in the Book of Mormon one should assume both continents in Western Hemisphere i.e. both North and South American continents.
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Like I said, that is half the world. Can you be a little more specific?
 
Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon tells the story of the source (where they came from) of the native peoples of the Americas. Science has shown that to be false. So the story of the Book of Mormon is false and Joseph Smith lied about it. If a Mormon teaches the scientic view, they will be excommunicated.
 
barnesms said:
I know this is difficult when closed minds are present, but the point I was making is that on a relative basis i.e. comparing the Eastern Hemisphere to the Western Hemisphere we know very little. Please don’t attempt to get smug or cute; it is unbecoming. The issue is to intelligently converse. Platitudes such as yours and by others does nothing to strengthen your position.
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Interesting article from **The Journal of Young Investigators **(vol 19/Issue 23/May 2010)

Olmec Writing: The oldest in the Western Hemisphere

Insect, dart tip, corn, corn, throne, beetle, shucked corn.

Vertical fish, eyes, skin, bivalve….and corn.

Huh?

That’s what anthropologists and archaeologists alike are asking after the discovery of the Cascajal Block, an ancient slab of writing which is thought to be the oldest known writing system in the Western Hemisphere. The block features linear arrangements of certain characters that appear to be ancient depictions of tribal objects, such as animals, insects, tools and food (especially corn). A team of anthropological researchers announced the find in the **journal Science **last month. Determined to be from the Olmec civilization, the block dates to the first millennia BC according to the lead researchers and was found in Veracruz, Mexico.

The intrigue of the block lies in the writing system, a hitherto unknown way of communication for the Olmecs of ancient Mesoamerica. **“It’s showing that they’re literate,” **explained Dr. Stephen Houston, a corresponding author of the paper and a professor of anthropology at Brown University. “With literacy, you can compile records or communicate over long distances, without any miracles of memorization.”

The actual language on the block, however, is currently untranslatable. But it gives new dimension to a relatively unheard of civilization which came** before **the more popular Mayan and Aztec tribes.

The Olmecs

The Olmecs, regarded as America’s first civilization, existed from about **1500 to 400 BC. **They resided in what is known as “Olman”, or the Olmec heartland, situated in Mexico on the southern tip of the Gulf of Mexico. It stretched from Veracruz in the west to Tabasco in the east, occupying the northern part of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.

The Olmec are well known for their gigantic sculptures, particularly their **colossal **stone heads. The colossal heads are thought to depict important Olmec men, such as rulers or maybe sports players, and look very realistic. Constructed from boulders, all heads included a different headdress which may have identified the status of the men depicted in the sculpture.

Furthermore, the Olmec **produced a prodigious amount of small ornaments and figurines which resemble the look and are mistakenly labeled jade. **

From all the iconography that has been found—large monuments, smaller figurines, etc.—the Olmecs certainly had a religion. “Religion was the force that bound Olmec culture together,” remarks Dr. Richard A. Diehl, anthropology professor at the University of Alabama, in his book The Olmecs.

Relatively little was known about Olmec language and writing before the discovery of the Cascajal block. **The Olmec certainly had symbols: **“It’s the first group of people to have elaborate symbolism,” explained Houston. In 2002, a roller stamp and fragments of a plaque were found in San Andres, Tabasco, which dated to at least 650 BC. They also had a calendar system, but there is limited evidence to describe the system in detail.
 
cont’d (edited for length)

The Cascajal Block

The find in Veracruz seems to indicate that the Olmecs were writing long before the San Andres roller stamps existed. “The block is clearly centuries earlier than any other known written artifact,” said Houston. “There are some examples from the Maya which date to around 300 BC and the valley of Oaxaca which date to 500 BC.”

The authors of the report and principle researchers involved with its analysis concluded that it originated between 1100 and 900 BC, based on the fact that clay shards found around the block also date to this time.

Professor David Grove, Professor Emeritus of Anthropology at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, finds these facts troubling. He has commented that he doesn’t feel the clay shards qualify as contextual evidence and that the block is therefore dated incorrectly.

“I feel the block is a couple of hundred years younger than suggested in the Science article. I think it more likely dates to sometime between **700-500 BC,” **he mentioned. “I say that because in my opinion, some of those symbols only occur late in the Olmec period.”

Overall, all researchers involved with Olmec or Mesoamerican study agree that the discovery and existence of the Cascajal Block is of major importance to history of the Olmecs and the history of language in the Western Hemisphere.

“It’s important for two reasons,” said Coe. “One, it establishes that the oldest civilization in that part of the world could write. Two, it’s an entirely new system of writing—later writing systems don’t look like it at all.”

"It’s a tantalizing discovery,” Houston remarked. “I think it could be the beginning of a new era of focus on Olmec civilization.”
 
Lax, what do you want to bet that the Olmec writing doesn’t look a thing like “reformed Egyptian”? 😉
 
MelanieAnne said:
Lax, what do you want to bet that the Olmec writing doesn’t look a thing like “reformed Egyptian”? 😉
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Actually, there is a picture of the stone with the inscriptions, and unfortunately it didn’t copy.

And it is clear from this article that civilizations have a history of building structures for religious as well as dwelling purposes that have survived thousands of years.
The BoM people were religious and if they descended from the Hebrews/Israelites they would have had a long history of burying their dead and would not have left them in fields to rot. There would also have been altars for sacrifices I would think.

Something would have survived.
 
This had been edited out due to the length of the article. It gives a description of the writing method:

But why do the researchers think the block depicts a writing system? “It’s a **codified **system of signs,” said Houston. “It has long linear sequences, which is what you expect from writing. It has all the earmarks of writing as we know it.”

Clearly **pictorial in nature, the several signs looked like common objects or animals—**corn, fish, and insects. Others are more abstract, such as signs resembling a pair of eyes and other facial markings.
Still, the block offers a few new insights about Olmec writing. Houston, who helped decipher Mayan writing, maintains that to make headway of an unknown language, pattern detection is a valuable tool.

“In the Cascajal block, there are patterns that are evident. (The Olmecs) are clearly being motivated by something grammatically,” he said.

Houston also used pattern detection to hypothesize about the nature of the entire set of symbols: “It’s not clear to me that it’s an economic document because you would expect to find number-like symbols. Identifying numbers is not really a problem, but there was nothing like that, so it’s about quantifying things. Some of the signs seem to be ritual implements.”

Well we know there is Mayan writing as well!
 
lax16 said:
Actually, there is a picture of the stone with the inscriptions, and unfortunately it didn’t copy.

And it is clear from this article that civilizations have a history of building structures for religious as well as dwelling purposes that have survived thousands of years.
The BoM people were religious and if they descended from the Hebrews/Israelites they would have had a long history of burying their dead and would not have left them in fields to rot. There would also have been altars for sacrifices I would think.

Something would have survived.
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There is a very good reason why nothing and no one has survived. Fictional characters and localities tend not to leave a lot of evidence behind. Apart from the stories about them in books.
 
barnesms said:
I know this is difficult when closed minds are present, but the point I was making is that on a relative basis i.e. comparing the Eastern Hemisphere to the Western Hemisphere we know very little. Please don’t attempt to get smug or cute; it is unbecoming. The issue is to intelligently converse. Platitudes such as yours and by others does nothing to strengthen your position.
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When you ask such a question. how am I to answer? We know just about as much of the Western Hemisphere as we do the Eastern Henisphere. I suggest that you heed some of your advice.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
why_me said:
We have a pretty good idea where bountiful could have been and also Nahom:

youtube.com/watch?v=FtqaeCo6rTY
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I have seen that. One thing I asked for was something NOT from Mormon Apologists. No non-LDS scientist or archeologist has agreed with this. Somehow, you get Nahom out of Nehem. Even non Christians will tell you that Jerusalem iis the same place mentioned in the Bible.

I will ask again, please provide the locations in the Book of Mormon. Heck, I have gone to LDS bookstores and even Mormon writers can;t agree where in this half of the world, it was.

I appreciate your efforts, but can you provide something as concrete on Book of Mormon locations as I can on Biblical locations?
 
why_me said:
Except the youtube video does prove you wrong. But…I think that your mind is closed to such evidence. 🙂

youtube.com/watch?v=FtqaeCo6rTY
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Are you aware that the video is saying Nahom but the inscription is actually NHM? It can mean a variety of words depending on which letters (vowels) get placed between N-H-M?

You actually think that this one youtube video proves people wrong? Why is it on youtube and not documented in a journal?
 
Tmaque said:
Dianaiad reminds me of my 9 year old arguing with his friend that there is no Santa Claus. He so desperately wants it to be true that he comes up with the most amazing logical gymnastic moves to deflect his friends arguments. His mind is totally closed to the evidence. So is our friend Dianaiad’s.
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Oddly enough, that seems to be the general opinion of far too many people…regarding everyone ELSE’S faith.
 
lax16 said:
Are you aware that the video is saying Nahom but the inscription is actually NHM? It can mean a variety of words depending on which letters (vowels) get placed between N-H-M?

You actually think that this one youtube video proves people wrong? Why is it on youtube and not documented in a journal?
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Would it matter to you if it was documented by a host of archaeologists? Would it change your mind? Would you become LDS if it was so? Of course not. You would remain a Catholic and your faith would remain strong.

We are discussing a topic of faith and as such there is no amount of evidence that suffices after the Holy Spirit has spoken to you. Does the snide, sneering comments of an unbeliever change your mind? Do the questions of the learned or even the ignorant change your mind? Of course not! You hold to the faith given you by the Holy Spirit and you wait upon God to do the same for others. Attempting to answer Reason with Faith will hardly be satisfying to you, but give me faith and through it we will move mountains as the servants of the Most High.
 
dianaiad said:
Oddly enough, that seems to be the general opinion of far too many people…regarding everyone ELSE’S faith.
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I for one don’t “know” my church is true and actually do consider opposing viewpoints.
 
lax16 said:
Actually, there is a picture of the stone with the inscriptions, and unfortunately it didn’t copy.

And it is clear from this article that civilizations have a history of building structures for religious as well as dwelling purposes that have survived thousands of years.
The BoM people were religious and if they descended from the Hebrews/Israelites they would have had a long history of burying their dead and would not have left them in fields to rot. There would also have been altars for sacrifices I would think.

Something would have survived.
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What Diana is trying to sidestep is that fact that Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites exist only in Mormonism, not in reality. That’s the reason that Mormon apologists argue that a lack of evidence doesn’t disprove something. I agree and say that, when taken in its entirety, Mormonism falls completely flat, its claims of authority empty and hollow.

The tone of modern Mormon apologists is also one that seeks to be considered Christian, though they are distinctly not anything near such. This process started in the late 1960s, as the church saw protests against its BYU teams as the general public learned that the ‘filthy, dark, and loathesome’ blacks weren’t permitted the priesthood. The church has polished its image and learned that one catches more flies with honey than with vinegar.

What they won’t tell you is that they believe the Bible to be missing many ‘plain and precious things,’ as stated seven times in Nephi 13:24-42, just so as not to be mistaken. What they won’t tell you is that the story of the Furst Vision, the one where Joseph Smith supposedly saw God and Jesus, was the fifth or sixth such version of the story. What they also won’t tell you is that the church holds the BOM above the Bible every day of the week.

Regarding “Reformed Egyptian,” I own two examples of it: the cover of my 1963 ‘gold’ BOM and in the 1971 edition, p 569. There are, indeed, exactly no examples of it anywhere in history on either side of the Atlantic Ocean. In fact, that the events in the BOM allegedly took place in Meso-America wasn’t mentioned until 1842, after Smith had read the books of John Lloyd Stephens (Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan, 1841)

Modern Mormon apologists will tell you that they have no idea where any BOM place is located; this is where I say that if you show me a good Mormon, I’ll show you someone who doesn’t know their own history; I know exactly where the Hill Cumorah is and can prove it. This, of course, undermines every bit of the church’s game playing, leading people to believe that the ruins of the Aztec, Toltec, and Mayan civilizations is actually tied to the BOM.

In short, it’s a combination of wishful thinking, deliberate misinterpretation, and greed, all wrapped in a pseudo-Christian tone to deceive members out of their tithe. I don’t think it was always this way, as Mormonism has evolved over the years, never having been a ‘restoration.’
 
barnesms said:
Would it matter to you if it was documented by a host of archaeologists? Would it change your mind? Would you become LDS if it was so? Of course not. You would remain a Catholic and your faith would remain strong.

We are discussing a topic of faith and as such there is no amount of evidence that suffices after the Holy Spirit has spoken to you. Does the snide, sneering comments of an unbeliever change your mind? Do the questions of the learned or even the ignorant change your mind? Of course not! You hold to the faith given you by the Holy Spirit and you wait upon God to do the same for others. Attempting to answer Reason with Faith will hardly be satisfying to you, but give me faith and through it we will move mountains as the servants of the Most High.
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This is deceitful and we both know it. Most people here might not know mucvh about Mormonism, but I do.

The Mormon god (little g) told Joseph Smith not to join any religion on earth because all were an abomination before him (JS-History 1:18). We also know that the fictional Nephi allegedly saw that in Smith’s day, there would be two churches: that of the Lamb and that founded by Satan. Since the clear implication is that the LDS is the church of the Lamb, where does that leave everyone else?

What you’re practicing is moral relativism, tell people that you’re all Christians while privately telling the membership that the Bible is incorrect and that they aren’t truly Christians. Catholicism isn’t exempt from their either because it has its problems, too, though not nearly as damning as the ones facing the LDS now.
 
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