See the Smithsonian Letter on the Book of Mormon.

[barnesms]

This is deceitful and we both know it. Most people here might not know mucvh about Mormonism, but I do.

The Mormon god (little g) told Joseph Smith not to join any religion on earth because all were an abomination before him (JS-History 1:18). We also know that the fictional Nephi allegedly saw that in Smith’s day, there would be two churches: that of the Lamb and that founded by Satan. Since the clear implication is that the LDS is the church of the Lamb, where does that leave everyone else?

What you’re practicing is moral relativism, tell people that you’re all Christians while privately telling the membership that the Bible is incorrect and that they aren’t truly Christians. Catholicism isn’t exempt from their either because it has its problems, too, though not nearly as damning as the ones facing the LDS now.

I am sorry, but if you know the history of the LDS Church, you don’t explain it accurately…deceitfully?

First, the “Mormon God” (please note the capital “G”) is God the Father, the god of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob stated “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight”. This is a very common distortion among those who really know a lot about the LDS Church, but who obviously have only a distorted understanding.

There are certainly two churches, the one belonging to the Lamb of God which leads all to Jesus Christ and the other that leads its followers to disbelieve in Jesus and doubt the reality of the scripture and God’s love for mankind. Now answer the question of what and who is the Church of the Lamb?

The Book of Mormon clearly states in its Introduction, **The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel. ** This directly contradicts your obviously distorted accusations. What you do is not moral relativism, but is outright misinformation and distortion and one who twists facts to meet their own objectives.

A true Christian, IMHO, is one who has faith that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, lived a perfect life, performed miracles, bled from every pore in the Garden of Gethsemane, hung on the cross paying for the sins of all humanity, rose the third day, returned to his Father in Heaven, sits on his right hand, and will return again one day. Believes that it is only through Jesus and His Grace that we are saved and that if one has faith, one will have works that demonstrate that faith in the Holy One of Israel. Christians are found in all Christian churches and are not solely reserved to one, single church.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Would it matter to you if it was documented by a host of archaeologists? Would it change your mind? Would you become LDS if it was so? Of course not. You would remain a Catholic and your faith would remain strong.

Not true. I have always been open to where God leads me. If non LDS Archeologists started discovering Book of Mormon cities, I would sit up and listen. Unfortunaltely, it is not going to happen

We are discussing a topic of faith and as such there is no amount of evidence that suffices after the Holy Spirit has spoken to you.

That is handy, because with the Book of Mormon, that is what you have: no amount of evidence

]

 

[SirThomasMore]

I am sorry, but if you know the history of the LDS Church, you don’t explain it accurately…deceitfully?

First, the “Mormon God” (please note the capital “G”) is God the Father, the god of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob stated “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight”. This is a very common distortion among those who really know a lot about the LDS Church, but who obviously have only a distorted understanding.

There are certainly two churches, the one belonging to the Lamb of God which leads all to Jesus Christ and the other that leads its followers to disbelieve in Jesus and doubt the reality of the scripture and God’s love for mankind. Now answer the question of what and who is the Church of the Lamb?

The Book of Mormon clearly states in its Introduction, The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel. This directly contradicts your obviously distorted accusations. What you do is not moral relativism, but is outright misinformation and distortion and one who twists facts to meet their own objectives.

A true Christian, IMHO, is one who has faith that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, lived a perfect life, performed miracles, bled from every pore in the Garden of Gethsemane, hung on the cross paying for the sins of all humanity, rose the third day, returned to his Father in Heaven, sits on his right hand, and will return again one day. Believes that it is only through Jesus and His Grace that we are saved and that if one has faith, one will have works that demonstrate that faith in the Holy One of Israel. Christians are found in all Christian churches and are not solely reserved to one, single church.

Actually, in some of the various versions of the first vision, God said no such thing.

 

[Dad_of_3]

I am sorry, but if you know the history of the LDS Church, you don’t explain it accurately…deceitfully?

First, the “Mormon God” (please note the capital “G”) is God the Father, the god of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob stated “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight”. This is a very common distortion among those who really know a lot about the LDS Church, but who obviously have only a distorted understanding.

There are certainly two churches, the one belonging to the Lamb of God which leads all to Jesus Christ and the other that leads its followers to disbelieve in Jesus and doubt the reality of the scripture and God’s love for mankind. Now answer the question of what and who is the Church of the Lamb?

The Book of Mormon clearly states in its Introduction, The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel. This directly contradicts your obviously distorted accusations. What you do is not moral relativism, but is outright misinformation and distortion and one who twists facts to meet their own objectives.

A true Christian, IMHO, is one who has faith that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, lived a perfect life, performed miracles, bled from every pore in the Garden of Gethsemane, hung on the cross paying for the sins of all humanity, rose the third day, returned to his Father in Heaven, sits on his right hand, and will return again one day. Believes that it is only through Jesus and His Grace that we are saved and that if one has faith, one will have works that demonstrate that faith in the Holy One of Israel. Christians are found in all Christian churches and are not solely reserved to one, single church.

How is it deceitful to state the changes in history and text that the church doesn’t bother to tell its members? Why doesn’t the church take a position on anything at all? Is there some reason it won’t defend itself?

Is it deceitful to say that the church claims to be lead by Jesus Christ, yet permitted Ted Bundy to join and wasn’t able to prevent Mark Hoffman to murder two people (Steven Christensen was a devout Mormon)? Is it deceitful to say that Joseph Smith murdered two men before being murdered himself? Is it deceitful to say that Mormon prophets aren’t subject to following their own rules, too? And is it deceitful to say that the Mormon scriptures have been altered to fit the church’s current view on matters shaped by popular society and mere man’s laws?

Since you’re obviously trying to color me as having a distorted understanding of Mormonism, the $64,000 question is how did I arrive at these conclusions when I likely have more BOMs than you do (I have six at the moment), own all of the standard works, Gospel Principles, a BOM student manual, a photocopy of the 1830 BOM, and am a subscriber to FAIR, FARMS, and the Nephi Project? This, of course, doesn’t take into account the other works I own, like “Ancient America and the BOM” by Milton Hunter and Thomas Stuart Ferguson, “The Keystone of Mormonism” by Paul Cheesman and biographies of Joseph F. Smith and Emma Smith.

My ‘distorted understanding’ is gained by following the evidence to its logical and reasonable conclusions using LDS-produced works and sources. In fact, I use the standards as laid out by Orson Pratt, so, if anything, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You mentioned the intor to the BOM. What you forgot to mention is that the book contradicts itself immediately because while it claims that the Bible contains the ‘fulness of the gospel,’ 1 Nephi 13:23-42 makes it clear that it’s missing many “plain and precious things.” It states it seven times so we get the message. The obvious question is how can the Bible be missing those ‘plain and precious things’ and still contain the ‘fulness of the gospel?’

Since the BOM adds exactly nothing not already covered in the Bible, it seems as though it wouldn’t need anything added to it, yet with D&C, we start to get into the really silly stuff as Smith descended into the truly un-Christian teachings.

On your assesement of what a Christian is, I would agree, but what most don’t know about Mormons is that this is a word game; there’s a language barrier between Christians and Mormons because your church takes a Christian term and adds a different meaning to it, thus changing it altogether. This thus undermines and nullifies your argument for being “Christians” since you’re taking Joseph Smith’s word for it, a man who couldn’t even tell the same story about the Furst Vision twice.

You can follow the once-was-a-polygamous-man-and-now-is-an-exhalted-god-but-still-makes-mistakes-little-j-jesus, but I’ll stick with the Biblical Jesus, thank you, kindly.

 

[twopekinguys]

How is it deceitful to state the changes in history and text that the church doesn’t bother to tell its members? Why doesn’t the church take a position on anything at all? Is there some reason it won’t defend itself?

Is it deceitful to say that the church claims to be lead by Jesus Christ, yet permitted Ted Bundy to join and wasn’t able to prevent Mark Hoffman to murder two people (Steven Christensen was a devout Mormon)? Is it deceitful to say that Joseph Smith murdered two men before being murdered himself? Is it deceitful to say that Mormon prophets aren’t subject to following their own rules, too? And is it deceitful to say that the Mormon scriptures have been altered to fit the church’s current view on matters shaped by popular society and mere man’s laws?

Since you’re obviously trying to color me as having a distorted understanding of Mormonism, the $64,000 question is how did I arrive at these conclusions when I likely have more BOMs than you do (I have six at the moment), own all of the standard works, Gospel Principles, a BOM student manual, a photocopy of the 1830 BOM, and am a subscriber to FAIR, FARMS, and the Nephi Project? This, of course, doesn’t take into account the other works I own, like “Ancient America and the BOM” by Milton Hunter and Thomas Stuart Ferguson, “The Keystone of Mormonism” by Paul Cheesman and biographies of Joseph F. Smith and Emma Smith.

My ‘distorted understanding’ is gained by following the evidence to its logical and reasonable conclusions using LDS-produced works and sources. In fact, I use the standards as laid out by Orson Pratt, so, if anything, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You mentioned the intor to the BOM. What you forgot to mention is that the book contradicts itself immediately because while it claims that the Bible contains the ‘fulness of the gospel,’ 1 Nephi 13:23-42 makes it clear that it’s missing many “plain and precious things.” It states it seven times so we get the message. The obvious question is how can the Bible be missing those ‘plain and precious things’ and still contain the ‘fulness of the gospel?’

Since the BOM adds exactly nothing not already covered in the Bible, it seems as though it wouldn’t need anything added to it, yet with D&C, we start to get into the really silly stuff as Smith descended into the truly un-Christian teachings.

On your assesement of what a Christian is, I would agree, but what most don’t know about Mormons is that this is a word game; there’s a language barrier between Christians and Mormons because your church takes a Christian term and adds a different meaning to it, thus changing it altogether. This thus undermines and nullifies your argument for being “Christians” since you’re taking Joseph Smith’s word for it, a man who couldn’t even tell the same story about the Furst Vision twice.

You can follow the once-was-a-polygamous-man-and-now-is-an-exhalted-god-but-still-makes-mistakes-little-j-jesus, but I’ll stick with the Biblical Jesus, thank you, kindly.

Bravo!!

I found it interesting that your brought up the fact that JS murdered 2 men before being killed.

I know it is in the mormon history of the church, but when I brought it up on a previous thread, I was told by a mormon poster that the individual had been “misinformed” No other explaination other than he was “misinformed”. My question was why wasn’t it corrected/changed considering how many times the BoM and D&C had been changed. I never got an answer.

Hmmmmm

 

[Dad_of_3]

Actually, in some of the various versions of the first vision, God said no such thing.

And in the very first version of the Furst Vision, he didn’t see God at all. Smith was hanging out at home (what a boy who lived on a farm was doing at home alone and not working is never actually addressed) when a “Jewish minister” named Joshua stops by and raps about religion. Joseph then goes out into the grove and prays to God, at which point an angel descends from Heaven, tells him his sins are forgiven and that Jesus is the Christ. (HOTC Vol 2, p 304)

This is some time after Smith learned about the BOM, which causes a chronological problem in the church’s accounts but it also shows that the only common thread among all of the different accounts is that Smith prayed in the grove. That’s it.

 

[Dad_of_3]

Bravo!!

I found it interesting that your brought up the fact that JS murdered 2 men before being killed.

I know it is in the mormon history of the church, but when I brought it up on a previous thread, I was told by a mormon poster that the individual had been “misinformed” No other explaination other than he was “misinformed”. My question was why wasn’t it corrected/changed considering how many times the BoM and D&C had been changed. I never got an answer.

Hmmmmm

This goes directly to the character of Joseph Smith, the man who supposedly restored the church founded by Jesus Christ and who eventually met with many of the major players from the Bible, as well as the fictional BOM.

Many Mormon apologists don’t even know this happened because they’ve assumed that the church is telling them the truth and playing the victim role is an easy way to gain sympathy.

Let’s take the church at its word for a moment, shall we? If Jesus Christ Almighty leads the church from Salt Lake City, UT, it makes sense that everything it commissions, approves, authorizes, prints, distributes, and sells falls under the umbrella of His divine authority and approval, right?

Therefore, whether something is formally regarded as scripture or not, is from God, correct? After all, if He went through all of the trouble to restore his church on Earth, he would protect it from that alleged apostacy, right?

Yet when we look at the History of the Church (HOTC, volume 7, pp 100-103), we find that Smith did indeed have a gun, a six-shooter, which he fired all of the rounds from, two of which killed his attackers.

Call me silly, but when does a martyr kill people on the way out? Was he following the example of Jesus Christ on the cross? How many people did He kill? It was two, right?

Anyway, your question was why hadn’t it been corrected/expungeoned? I honestly don’t know but I’m guessing most Mormons don’t read HOTC much so the church likely sees it as a non-threat, unlike the content of the BOM, which they continue to tinker with today.

 

[twopekinguys]

And in the very first version of the Furst Vision, he didn’t see God at all. Smith was hanging out at home (what a boy who lived on a farm was doing at home alone and not working is never actually addressed) when a “Jewish minister” named Joshua stops by and raps about religion. Joseph then goes out into the grove and prays to God, at which point an angel descends from Heaven, tells him his sins are forgiven and that Jesus is the Christ. (HOTC Vol 2, p 304)

This is some time after Smith learned about the BOM, which causes a chronological problem in the church’s accounts but it also shows that the only common thread among all of the different accounts is that Smith prayed in the grove. That’s it.

Speaking of the first vision. I found this site to be quite interesting and informative.

ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/firstvision.html

 

[why_me]

Bravo!!

I found it interesting that your brought up the fact that JS murdered 2 men before being killed.

IHmmmmm

Twopekinguys definition of murder: One hundred men painted in black faced and armed through the teeth storm a prison to kill Joseph Smith. They shoot Joseph’s brother hyrum who was in prison with him… killing him. Joseph then uses a six shooter killing two of the hundred attackers who were out to kill him.

Joseph murdered two. And hyrum? No murder committed.

Hmmmmmmm…is right.

However here is the story as it happened…Joseph Smith did not kill two people.

fairlds.org/pubs/jsmartyr.pdf

 

[why_me]

Call me silly, but when does a martyr kill people on the way out? Was he following the example of Jesus Christ on the cross? How many people did He kill? It was two, right?

Anyway, your question was why hadn’t it been corrected/expungeoned? I honestly don’t know but I’m guessing most Mormons don’t read HOTC much so the church likely sees it as a non-threat, unlike the content of the BOM, which they continue to tinker with today.

I think that you got the story wrong. You can read this:

fairlds.org/pubs/jsmartyr.pdf

Were the Jews who defended themselves in the Warsaw Ghetto martyrs? I think so. They died because of their faith. And Joseph Smith did not kill people on the way out. He was murdered by a mob of a hundred who were out to kill him. They murdered his brother in prison and they murdered Joseph Smith. But unfortunately, your biasedness is unbelieveable. So, it was fine for the mob to murdered Joseph’s brother Hyrum while he shared a prison cell with his brother. And then Joseph witnessing the killing of his brother, picked up the six shooter and fired three bullets. But Joseph is a murderer. Please…save me from such opinions.

 

[Dad_of_3]

I know this is difficult when closed minds are present, but the point I was making is that on a relative basis i.e. comparing the Eastern Hemisphere to the Western Hemisphere we know very little. Please don’t attempt to get smug or cute; it is unbecoming. The issue is to intelligently converse. Platitudes such as yours and by others does nothing to strengthen your position.

Since we have no evidence of Nephites, Lamanites, or Jaredites and nothing to connect them to the Aztecs, Mayans, or Toltecs, no evidence of any New World pre-Columbian Hebrew or Christian traditions, and the church playing games with its archaeology, the clear indication is that it’s all a farce. Add to that the false prophesies of Smith and the changes, errors, and plagiarizations found in the BOM, the evidence against you gets even stronger.

You have to ignore facts and reinvent history just to make Mormonism work. And you call us closed minded?

 

[why_me]

And in the very first version of the Furst Vision, he didn’t see God at all. Smith was hanging out at home (what a boy who lived on a farm was doing at home alone and not working is never actually addressed) when a “Jewish minister” named Joshua stops by and raps about religion. Joseph then goes out into the grove and prays to God, at which point an angel descends from Heaven, tells him his sins are forgiven and that Jesus is the Christ. (HOTC Vol 2, p 304)

This is some time after Smith learned about the BOM, which causes a chronological problem in the church’s accounts but it also shows that the only common thread among all of the different accounts is that Smith prayed in the grove. That’s it.

I think that you need to get the story straight. You are off in a few parts. But you will not find any catholics correcting you. And why should they?

Well anyway, from the lds magazine Ensign, here is a mormon interpretation of the first vision accounts. As you can see, it is in a lds magazine.

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1996.htm/ensign%20april%201996.htm/joseph%20smiths%20testimony%20of%20the%20first%20vision.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

And of course, here is another article from the lds magazine Ensign about the accounts of the first vision:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1985.htm/ensign%20january%201985%20.htm/joseph%20smiths%20recitals%20of%20the%20first%20vision.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

Now, the question is: are you willing to read mormon interpretations or you just satisfied with antimormon sources. Please let us know.

 

[Dad_of_3]

I think that you got the story wrong. You can read this:

fairlds.org/pubs/jsmartyr.pdf

Were the Jews who defended themselves in the Warsaw Ghetto martyrs? I think so. They died because of their faith. And Joseph Smith did not kill people on the way out. He was murdered by a mob of a hundred who were out to kill him. They murdered his brother in prison and they murdered Joseph Smith. But unfortunately, your biasedness is unbelieveable. So, it was fine for the mob to murdered Joseph’s brother Hyrum while he shared a prison cell with his brother. And then Joseph witnessing the killing of his brother, picked up the six shooter and fired three bullets. But Joseph is a murderer. Please…save me from such opinions.

Funny how I’ve never once heard to the Polish Jews referred to as martyrs. That sounds like a self-serving foundation for your erroneaous claims. And since part of my family is Polish/Czech and suffered and died in the camps, I think I probably know more about that than you do.

You don’t think Joseph Smith killed two men before being killed himself? I guess you’d better not read HOTC vol 7 pages 100-103 in that case; your world view just might get a dose or reality. Is this an opinion? No, it’s a clear fact and you now have the exact source so you can prove it to yourself. Smith emptied the gun, firing six, not three, shots.

Was he murdered? Yes, he was. Do I condone it? No, I don’t. And was he a martyr for it? Not a chance.

You also didn’t bother to note the reason that Smith was killed; he made enemies because of his failed bank scam in Kirtland and for destroying the Nauvoo Expositor that exposed him for being the polygamist fraud that he was. There were enough reasons to kill him outside of religion and he finally reaped what he’d sown. He brought his own murder upon himself.

 

[why_me]

Since we have no evidence of Nephites, Lamanites, or Jaredites and nothing to connect them to the Aztecs, Mayans, or Toltecs, no evidence of any New World pre-Columbian Hebrew or Christian traditions, and the church playing games with its archaeology, the clear indication is that it’s all a farce. Add to that the false prophesies of Smith and the changes, errors, and plagiarizations found in the BOM, the evidence against you gets even stronger.

You have to ignore facts and reinvent history just to make Mormonism work. And you call us closed minded?

You are certainly an expert in antimormon information. No doubt about it. You read your sources quite well. But you are still lacking the other viewpoint. Mormons do not need to reevent history. Let me put it this way if I were an atheist:

I see no first hand account for evidence that Jesus was the Christ. What we have are accounts of glimpses from the life of chirst that were written decades after the event. And human memory can be faulty especially when we consider dialogue that is in the new testament. I see no other accounts of Jesus from that time. And so…I see no proof that Jesus was the son of god except what are in the new testament. And the four gospels can be contradictory at times.

And on and on it goes… See my point? In faith all things can be questioned and doubted. That is just the way it is. No evidence that god exists…

 

[Michael_Francis]

Due to declining charity, this thread is now closed.