D
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So would the parable of Lazarus and the rich man show that people in hell can see those in heaven (admittingly, the rich man saw Lazarus with Abraham apparently waiting for the gates of heaven to open)?
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S
So_Catholic
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I think it means we can see heaven from purgatory.
J
jmm08
Guest
Some consider the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man to be a parable. If the story is a parable, then it is not safe to conclude from only this story that you can see heaven from hell (or vice versa).
But Jesus did not say it was a parable. So there are some who hold the opinion that it is not a parable, but rather a story of something that actually happened. If the story is true, then there is truth in it and we can learn something. Most who hold this opinion consider that the story is one from the past (Lazarus and the Rich Man lived and died before Jesus told the story about them).
As a Protestant, and now as a Catholic, I hear a common theory that Lazarus went to the “Bosom of Abraham”. This has also sometimes been called the “Limbo of the Patriarchs” or “Limbo of the Fathers”.
See newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm for discussion on “The Bosom of Abraham”.
And I note that from most of the sources I have heard “The Bosom of Abraham” I have also heard that Jesus went there when He died and that these were the prisoners He rescued and took to heaven with him.
I’m quoting a relevant text from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo (there are elsewhere some inaccuracies in the article):
Jesus is also described as preaching to “the spirits in prison” (1 Pet 3:19). Medieval drama sometimes portrayed Christ leading a dramatic assault — The Harrowing of Hell — during the three days between the Crucifixion and the resurrection. In this assault, Jesus freed the souls of the just and escorted them triumphantly into heaven. This imagery is still used in the Eastern Orthodox Church’s Holy Saturday liturgy (between Good Friday and Pascha) and in Eastern Orthodox icons of the Resurrection of Jesus.
Since Jesus released those in prison – in Abraham’s Bosom – it has remained empty. So those in torment do not see anyone across the abyss any more. Jesus “descended into hell” as we say in the creed – and note that according to this theory I’m talking about Jesus was “just visiting” and He was never helplessly bound. Jesus “descended into hell” to the good side (Abraham’s bosom) to rescue the prisoners – those souls deserving of heaven.
Other sources which may contain better information than my summary include:
newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm
Summa Theologica – Third Part – Question 52 “Christ’s descent into hell”
newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm
Fathers of the Church – Hippolytus’s Letter – On Christ and Antichrist
Paragraph 26 “… He showed all power given by the Father to the Son, (Matthew 28:18) who is ordained Lord of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and Judge of all (Philippians 2:10) of things in heaven, because He was born, the Word of God, before all (ages); and of things on earth, because He became man in the midst of men, to re-create our Adam through Himself; and of things under the earth, because He was also reckoned among the dead, preaching the Gospel to the souls of the saints, (1 Peter 3:19) (and) by death overcoming death.”
jmm08
But Jesus did not say it was a parable. So there are some who hold the opinion that it is not a parable, but rather a story of something that actually happened. If the story is true, then there is truth in it and we can learn something. Most who hold this opinion consider that the story is one from the past (Lazarus and the Rich Man lived and died before Jesus told the story about them).
As a Protestant, and now as a Catholic, I hear a common theory that Lazarus went to the “Bosom of Abraham”. This has also sometimes been called the “Limbo of the Patriarchs” or “Limbo of the Fathers”.
See newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm for discussion on “The Bosom of Abraham”.
And I note that from most of the sources I have heard “The Bosom of Abraham” I have also heard that Jesus went there when He died and that these were the prisoners He rescued and took to heaven with him.
I’m quoting a relevant text from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo (there are elsewhere some inaccuracies in the article):
Jesus is also described as preaching to “the spirits in prison” (1 Pet 3:19). Medieval drama sometimes portrayed Christ leading a dramatic assault — The Harrowing of Hell — during the three days between the Crucifixion and the resurrection. In this assault, Jesus freed the souls of the just and escorted them triumphantly into heaven. This imagery is still used in the Eastern Orthodox Church’s Holy Saturday liturgy (between Good Friday and Pascha) and in Eastern Orthodox icons of the Resurrection of Jesus.
Since Jesus released those in prison – in Abraham’s Bosom – it has remained empty. So those in torment do not see anyone across the abyss any more. Jesus “descended into hell” as we say in the creed – and note that according to this theory I’m talking about Jesus was “just visiting” and He was never helplessly bound. Jesus “descended into hell” to the good side (Abraham’s bosom) to rescue the prisoners – those souls deserving of heaven.
Other sources which may contain better information than my summary include:
newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm
Summa Theologica – Third Part – Question 52 “Christ’s descent into hell”
newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm
Fathers of the Church – Hippolytus’s Letter – On Christ and Antichrist
Paragraph 26 “… He showed all power given by the Father to the Son, (Matthew 28:18) who is ordained Lord of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and Judge of all (Philippians 2:10) of things in heaven, because He was born, the Word of God, before all (ages); and of things on earth, because He became man in the midst of men, to re-create our Adam through Himself; and of things under the earth, because He was also reckoned among the dead, preaching the Gospel to the souls of the saints, (1 Peter 3:19) (and) by death overcoming death.”
jmm08
L
leonie
Guest
Because the rich man still has charity for his brothers, I would think that he probably is in purgatory rather than Hell.I think it means we can see heaven from purgatory.
P
Penitus
Guest
Friends, the Catechism does not allow for a Purgatory interpretation. Please see CCC 633
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
C
Clovis
Guest
Christ spoke of something making impossible the crossing, but not the observation. Obviously it serves for the further humiliation of the rich man to see how God pierces him eternally, I suppose. But if this piercing is of God, than Why did Christ say that it is the gentiles whose rulers will hort it over people, but your God will not do that. If the rich man had other indiscretions, as maybe to be wicked as well, than when did this occur. Did he at one point in his way see what justice was, but denied it? Or did he simply have the common since to have not wanted to suffer because it is suffering none the less? Is it wicked to be rational than? What if dear old Lazarus had said all the days of his sufferings that God will cut down men who were fortunate and give all glory to the unfortunate, would this not be a sign of loftiness on his part? I never liked suffering or oppression and never understood why injustice ever existed or had authority over anything ever, in other words I’d rather be dead than live in this world, and if happiness here means suffering in hell, I would neither leave any glory to God for his making but only Christ for his having ‘made all things new.’
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