Seeing is believing?

[fhansen]

What if you want to believe but can’t believe because you cannot know for sure if what the church teaches is true? Isn’t seeing believing? If I’m supposed to just take everything on faith then why not be a member of any other religion?

Faith is a gift, of grace, and one you can ask for, or for an increase of. It isn’t unreasonable but on our own we can’t maintain it, while God can grant it and continue to prove its truth to us. We must ask, seek, and knock, giving God the benefit of the doubt in the process. We must pray:

“All things are possible to him who believes!”
Immediately the boy’s father cried out, “I do believe; help my unbelief!” Mark 9:23-24

 

[bclustr9]

For me, I walked away when I realized I was attracted to the same gender. I immediately found myself rethinking my faith. Since studying other religions and leaving Church, I’ve started to think their all the same and slowly, I’ve started to doubt than any religion is true without direct first-hand evidence; evidence that I’ll prob never have.

 

[bclustr9]

How do you then explain someone using their own reason and coming to the conclusion that say, Islam, is the truth?

 

[guanophore]

Believing comes through knowing.

Yes, this is about a relationship.

Actually, if Jesus spoke to me, I’d believe.

Do you think this has not already happened?

I have asked for signs in the past and have had quite interesting ones; just not an absolutely sure sign.

What would be convincing?

I’m so pulled to Catholicism. I have chalked it up to merely psychological–simply having a hard time detaching myself from the faith I grew up with.

Naw. There is much more to it than that!

if I’d been brought up Muslim, would I have a difficult time extracting myself from Islam? I just don’t know.

I think you can know, if you continue to investigate. What is “pulling” you?

So, for me, it’s puzzling that a person would not just want to grab onto God and hold on so tight! Why doesn’t everyone want that?

Each soul has its own path. You make an important point, though. There is no substitute for an experience of the divine.

For me, I walked away when I realized I was attracted to the same gender.

I was just wondering what it was that was standing between you and a faith experience! You answered my question before I asked it. I am curious why this is what triggered you to turn your back?

I’ve started to doubt than any religion is true without direct first-hand evidence; evidence that I’ll prob never have.

The basic desire you have, to seek the supernatural, has been created in us. This is one of the things that brought you here to start this thread.

I wonder what makes you so sure you will never have the evidence? do you think you are so different from others who have the same kind of questions? I am pretty sure you will not have it if you are not open - if you have made up your mind in advance it can’t happen.

How do you then explain someone using their own reason and coming to the conclusion that say, Islam, is the truth?

Reason can come to false conclusions, so it should not be the ONLY source of our knowledge. Catholics rely on what God has revealed to us about Himself.

 

[PennyinCanada]

I understand what you’re saying. You realized you have same sex attraction. Rethinking your faith. Many people have some kind of event in their life that stops them right in their stride. Someone dies unexpectedly. Someone is hurt by a drunk driver. Someone has a special needs child. A job loss, a failed marriage, a child in prison.

It comes down to a decision. Do you want to go forward holding onto God’s hand?
I want that very much. Today and all my tomorrows. I especially want that for you.

 

[bclustr9]

I just wish I knew for sure but in a way that is positive.

 

[bclustr9]

I appreciate your engagement here, and your insights. I suppose when I realized I was attracted to the same gender, I thought “well I can’t act on this romantic or sexual desire because it’s sinful according to the Bible”. That really made me question Christianity because I found myself in direct opposition to it. I began studying and just started to doubt all of it; Noah’s ark etc, the list goes on. Like I’ve mentioned in responses on this posting, I have asked for signs that Jesus is real, that Catholicism is true (because I definitely don’t care for the pick & choose, chaos of hundreds of denominations in Protestantism) & have perhaps received odd “signs” but nothing concrete. I dunno.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I lived with an alcoholic parent who had issues with addiction. It was a dark place to grow up in. When I was in my 20’s I found out that there really was a God and that he loved me. It was the most incredible event of my life. It was full of brightness

Your story sounds like Mother Angelica’s story of her youth, which was miserable because her father didn’t want a child and deserted her mother, who suffered from mental illness and was suicidal, and the nuns at the Catholic school and some other people looked down on her because her parents were divorced. She too was really thrilled when she realized there was a God and He loved her.

I think for those of us who had loving parents and not too many hardships, we just sort of take the love of God, and maybe the existence of God, for granted. One needs to get into situations where handling it without help just seems very difficult or impossible to better understand the wonder of God’s presence and help.

 

[bclustr9]

I yearn for God. I’ve felt Him before. I was so at peace. Sometimes I wonder if my issue is less about believing what is hard to believe and more about what believing would mean; His will, not mine.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Faith is a gift for those who are open to it. By reason alone, you can doubt everything, except your own existence, as Descartes correctly said.

 

[guanophore]

I suppose when I realized I was attracted to the same gender, I thought “well I can’t act on this romantic or sexual desire because it’s sinful according to the Bible”. That really made me question Christianity because I found myself in direct opposition to it.

It is a fact that many of our natural human desires are contrary to God’s plan for our lives. Jesus spent much more time talking about greed, power, and the accumulation of material goods than He did about sex. I think that is because these are dangerous natural traps for humans.

There is much more to us as human beings than our natural instincts and desires. Just because some of our desires run counter to God’s plan does not mean are entirely “opposed”.

I definitely don’t care for the pick & choose, chaos of hundreds of denominations in Protestantism

That is definitely a plus!

but nothing concrete

What might that be?

I yearn for God. I’ve felt Him before.

Is this lacking "concrete"ness?

Sometimes I wonder if my issue is less about believing what is hard to believe and more about what believing would mean; His will, not mine.

I think this is absolutely valid. He calls us to take up our cross,and follow. A person who took up the cross was on the way to die. He had no life of his own, no possessions, no dreams, all of it got nailed to the wood. One of those natural human desires we have is clinging to our own life, our own ideas of how we want things to be. It runs counter to human nature to be willing to put it all to death.

 

[bclustr9]

I suppose"concrete" would be like me seeing God or Jesus, hearing Him, knowing for sure, w every fiber of my being.

 

[Sophie111]

Believing comes through knowing.

Last time I checked it was by hearing .

 

[Seagull]

Even Jesus was shocked and surprised - by the lack of faith around him -
Imagine ! Around him - where he stood - in His very midst !
Unless you see - signs and wonders and miracles -
You won’t 100 % believe.

A sad testament - indeed.

 

[semper_catholicus]

Yes, that’s what I was thinking of. Hearing, and then knowing, and the believing.

 

[guanophore]

I suppose"concrete" would be like me seeing God or Jesus, hearing Him, knowing for sure, w every fiber of my being.

Yes, I think this is the experience for which we all long. I think it is possible, and more likely if one is properly disposed to receive it. That would mean that a person opened themselves to what God has already revealed about Himself.

Which can be translated into: “Not only our actual creation was botched up, but even the design was faulty.”

I suppose a cynical person could translate it that way, but this is not what happened. God created humanity “good”, and to walk in harmony with Him. He designed us perfectly so that we could reflect His glory.

Of course even to talk about God’s “plan” is an impermissible anthropomorphisation of God.

If this were true, then God would not have directed the prophets to talk about His plans, and how people were straying from them, so they could get back on track.

To have a plan is to have expectation for some future event, which may or may not happen. Which is impossible for God.

It is true that God is outside the space-time continuum, but humans are not. He communicates with us within our framework, which means that from our perspective, it is a future event.

 

[MPat]

What if you want to believe but can’t believe because you cannot know for sure if what the church teaches is true?

Then you should decide if it is rational to believe. If it is (and wanting to believe seems to indicate that you already know that it is), you should fight this irrational fear “But what if it’s wrong?”.

One way to fight it is simply checking rationality of Catholicism in a more explicit way. Make “duels” (“Catholicism vs. Atheism”, “Catholicism vs. Islam”). List evidence for both options. If any pieces of evidence give you trouble - ask here. Eventually you’ll see that Catholicism is far superior to any other option.

Second way is to ask “So what?”. Let’s say that Atheism was true. What would you really lose by believing Catholicism anyway? That’s Pascal’s Wager, only stronger, because you already know that evidence points towards Catholicism.

And then you should simply act as if you believed already. Pray. Go to Mass on Sundays. You already know those things are rational to do anyway, so why not do them?

For me, I walked away when I realized I was attracted to the same gender. I immediately found myself rethinking my faith.

So, it is not that you have found some argument leading to conclusion that Catholicism is false. After all, Catholicism does not claim that you will be protected from this specific cross. On the contrary, it claims that everyone will have to carry some cross.

Instead, you have decided that you just do not like that Catholicism tells you that your same sex attraction is something you will have to fight.

You should see that this is not rational.

Since studying other religions and leaving Church, I’ve started to think their all the same and slowly, I’ve started to doubt than any religion is true without direct first-hand evidence; evidence that I’ll prob never have.

If they are really all the same, why shouldn’t you embrace any of them? For example, Catholicism?

As you can see, this is not a rational objection.

How do you then explain someone using their own reason and coming to the conclusion that say, Islam, is the truth?

Do you have some specific example of someone doing just that? Maybe no one has ever reached Islam using reason as such? And there is nothing to explain?

 

[guanophore]

However to call something “good” or “perfect”, which can be corrupted by one measly disobedience is not a way to call “good”.

I think there is a fundamental flaw of reasoning here. Some examples would be 1) a snowflake is a perfect and unique creation, but ceases to exist for a number of reasons such as warmth
2) An arctic bay may be pristine and good, but can be corrupted by on large oil spill

In any case, we are not talking about a “measly disobedience” here, but a fundamental rebellion against one’s Creator, an act that is deliberately contrary to the good purpose for which humanity is created.

If I would have the knowledge and the power, I would design something that cannot go “bad”, either by accident or by evil influence. Such a design is logically possible, so God could have done it.

No, it is not logical. Such a creation cannot have free will, and would not get to decide whether to be in relationship, or not. Such a creation would be a puppet or an automaton, and thus, would not fulfill the purpose intended by the Creator, which is fellowship based upon love. Only the presence of the ability to choose otherwise is true freedom.

The expression “ God’s plan ” is meaningless.

I can accept that it is meaningless to you, but to those of us who participate in the plan, it frames the entire meaning for life.