"Seek and ye Shall Find" What if you don't?

[HardRockGTR]

I don’t like the term “choose to believe”, because belief is not a choice. I agree, many people will criticize the Catholic Church whilst not knowing it at all, namely when it comes to subjects such as Galileo (specifically condemning him to death for his heliocentric theories, which never happened) or the Spanish Inquisition (which winded up being secular), or debates such as evolution (which the Church accepts).

That said, I’m intrigued that you yourself are admitting that you believe non-Christians can be saved, even if they don’t have faith in Christ or follow His teachings.

Personally, I’ve been far more philanthropic before. I still am, just not nearly as much. Personal events have led me to see humanity in a generally cynical light, which can both be good and bad, and and said events also gave me tremendous trust issues. Sadly, they’ve made me a tad misanthropic as well. I still do what I can, but I’m oftentimes too busy figuring out “the truth” to worry about philanthropy, truth to be told. I’m not sure if my search for truth is as ethically correct as philanthropy is, but I try my best to be an all-around good person nonetheless. I feel it difficult if not impossible not to try my best, otherwise I feel guilty. I’m also really busy with school and everything surrounding it (including extracurricular activities, grocery shopping, exercise, guitar/choir practice, cooking dinner, studies, etc). Last year, I was a lot more affected by said events which were still ongoing, and I periodically participated in charities and what not.

That said, the other day, I did mention to my friends a desire that a blood drive came to school so that I could donate blood again; I donated my first time last February and I hate needles; I did it because I felt like it was a good thing to do, and felt good about it afterwards. I also haven’t had all the opportunities in the world to be charitable lately; there are no charities I can directly donate to given my situation (I’m a resident in college) and people generally don’t need help around here it seems, and virtually never come to me when they do (I offer help when possible though).

I’ve been a lot more worried about morality that has little to nothing to do about agape, which includes homosexuality (and other sexual ethics… I am not gay personally, but let’s just say I don’t share the Christian view regarding homosexuality), vegetarianism, finding the true religion if it exists, tolerance, social etiquette, performing well in school, eliminating sloth, lust, gluttony, as well as many other things.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t like the term “choose to believe”, because belief is not a choice.

I agree with this to an extent. However I would also suggest that “choose to believe” (or not believe) is really just another way of saying one has “faith” or “hope” in a given thing, or even just an acceptance of something in spite of not knowing the how or why of it.
So I think that there are components of both…

I myself struggle as a Catholic with some of the Church’s teachings…in particular a couple of the Marion dogmas. Now - I have a choice here - I can choose to reject them, or choose to accept them. In either case, my understanding of them will not change…it’s just a matter of where I put my faith. While I cannot wrap my head around some aspects of a given teaching - is my own intellect - my own wisdom - sufficient for me to reject the wisdom and teaching of others who are much better trained than me?

So - in short - I tend to come down on the side of choosing to accept without understanding rather than to reject because I don’t understand.
Perhaps a subtle difference…but real none-the-less.

I agree, many people will criticize the Catholic Church whilst not knowing it at all, namely when it comes to subjects such as Galileo (specifically condemning him to death for his heliocentric theories, which never happened) or the Spanish Inquisition (which winded up being secular), or debates such as evolution (which the Church accepts).

Yes - and I have to say that I think that the same can be said of how some Christians view non-believers.

That said, I’m intrigued that you yourself are admitting that you believe non-Christians can be saved, even if they don’t have faith in Christ or follow His teachings.

Now - we need to be careful here. Remember that I was talking about not having faith in a particular description of God, or Christ…and I definitely do not believe one can be saved if they do not follow Christ’s teachings.
The question - as we examine one’s beliefs - is whether or not they actually DO follow the teachings of our Lord (to the very best of their ability).

There are passages in the Gospels that speak of not relying on one’s “position” - but on one’s core beliefs and actions. Some of these include…
Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. - (Luke 3:8)

"Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - (Matthew 7:21)

The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. - (Matthew 12:42)

In addition to these we have the whole Mt 25 description of Judgement in which all is dependent on ones’ actions and outlooks…one’s heart…much more than on what one claims.

So - please be careful how you read my words. It’s not that I think one can be saved without Christ or without following His teachings. It’s just that I think (and the Church agrees) that one can actually accept the essence of Christ, and His teachings without realizing it. That what they are rejecting (if indeed they are rejecting) is not actually Christ but a distortion of Him.

Personally, I’ve been far more philanthropic before. I still am, just not nearly as much. Personal events have led me to see humanity in a generally cynical light, which can both be good and bad, and and said events also gave me tremendous trust issues.
…
SNIPPED for space…

Yes - What you describe happens to us all at some point. In some senses it’s just growing up and in other senses it can really set us on a good path or a bad path.
Following Christ is never easy…or at least has never been easy for me……I too tend to be a bit cynical and certainly not as charitable as I ought to be. I’ve struggled with anger issues and a weakness of constitution when it comes to professing and living my faith. I’ve gotten a bit better “in my old age”… (I’m pushing 60 though I still feel 30) but I know that there is so much yet for me to learn…so much God want’s me to know…about Him and about His Agape.

So to others such as yourself - Agape is where I begin - because as Christians we know that God IS Agape (1 John 4:7-8) and if others are to come to the one true God it must begin here. It mus begin with our showing Agape to others and through this Agape, the real and true Christ, the real and true faith, the real Truth will be found.

Peace
James

 

[HardRockGTR]

I agree with this to an extent. However I would also suggest that “choose to believe” (or not believe) is really just another way of saying one has “faith” or “hope” in a given thing, or even just an acceptance of something in spite of not knowing the how or why of it.
So I think that there are components of both…

I myself struggle as a Catholic with some of the Church’s teachings…in particular a couple of the Marion dogmas. Now - I have a choice here - I can choose to reject them, or choose to accept them. In either case, my understanding of them will not change…it’s just a matter of where I put my faith. While I cannot wrap my head around some aspects of a given teaching - is my own intellect - my own wisdom - sufficient for me to reject the wisdom and teaching of others who are much better trained than me?

So - in short - I tend to come down on the side of choosing to accept without understanding rather than to reject because I don’t understand.
Perhaps a subtle difference…but real none-the-less.

Makes sense. But then again, many people with great wisdom, greater than mine, have arrived to different conclusions. Just look at the differences between the pope, William Lane Craig, Avicenna, Friedrich Nietzsche, Buddha and Baruch Spinoza. They’ve all arrived at different destinations, respectively Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Atheism, Buddhism and Pantheism.

If it was as simple as choosing between non-religion and religion, Pascal’s Wager would be the only logic I’d ever need, but unfortunately there is too much room for religions other than Catholicism as well as for skepticism in this world for it to be that simple.

Yes - and I have to say that I think that the same can be said of how some Christians view non-believers.

Of course. Sometimes I wonder if some “Christians” should actually be called such.

coughWestboroBaptistChurchcough

Now - we need to be careful here. Remember that I was talking about not having faith in a particular description of God, or Christ…and I definitely do not believe one can be saved if they do not follow Christ’s teachings.
The question - as we examine one’s beliefs - is whether or not they actually DO follow the teachings of our Lord (to the very best of their ability).

snipped for space

So - please be careful how you read my words. It’s not that I think one can be saved without Christ or without following His teachings. It’s just that I think (and the Church agrees) that one can actually accept the essence of Christ, and His teachings without realizing it. That what they are rejecting (if indeed they are rejecting) is not actually Christ but a distortion of Him.

Ahh, yes. In some way this seems to suggest a sort of religious pluralism, at least from an ethical stance.

Still, what you’re saying is in contrast with what most other users here have told me; that Catholicism isn’t about works, but grace.

Also, the first two commandments forbid idolatry. It doesn’t sound fair that worshipers of another god or lack thereof should be punished, so I like the direction you’re bringing this topic.

Yes - What you describe happens to us all at some point. In some senses it’s just growing up and in other senses it can really set us on a good path or a bad path.
Following Christ is never easy…or at least has never been easy for me……I too tend to be a bit cynical and certainly not as charitable as I ought to be. I’ve struggled with anger issues and a weakness of constitution when it comes to professing and living my faith. I’ve gotten a bit better “in my old age”… (I’m pushing 60 though I still feel 30) but I know that there is so much yet for me to learn…so much God want’s me to know…about Him and about His Agape.

So to others such as yourself - Agape is where I begin - because as Christians we know that God IS Agape (1 John 4:7-8) and if others are to come to the one true God it must begin here. It mus begin with our showing Agape to others and through this Agape, the real and true Christ, the real and true faith, the real Truth will be found.

Peace
James

Thanks for the post. I’m all for self-improvement, and perhaps the most fundamental aspect of it is moral flourishing. I’m for all intents and purposes a eudaemonist and part of the philosophy is philanthropy.

In some way I have a very dualistic idea about humanity. While on one hand I’m cynical and feel like people generally only really care about themselves, I simultaneously have a certain degree of faith in humanity, seeing how much it has improved and progressed in history, and because I believe that most (if not all) people are instinctively ‘programmed’ to be love-oriented.

 

[JRKH]

Makes sense. But then again, many people with great wisdom, greater than mine, have arrived to different conclusions. Just look at the differences between the pope, William Lane Craig, Avicenna, Friedrich Nietzsche, Buddha and Baruch Spinoza. They’ve all arrived at different destinations, respectively Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Atheism, Buddhism and Pantheism.

And this is why I look at what Jesus taught was the Root…Agape. This is where one needs to begin.

If it was as simple as choosing between non-religion and religion, Pascal’s Wager would be the only logic I’d ever need, but unfortunately there is too much room for religions other than Catholicism as well as for skepticism in this world for it to be that simple.

Ah yes - - but I still suggest that one start from simple (agape) and go from there.

Ahh, yes. In some way this seems to suggest a sort of religious pluralism, at least from an ethical stance.

maybe I am in one sense…but then again I’m not since everything must be measured against Agape…

Still, what you’re saying is in contrast with what most other users here have told me; that Catholicism isn’t about works, but grace.

Sorry if I gave the impression it is about works. Not my intent.
Certainly it is about Grace - a gift from God - and not about works. Yet works are the manifestation of that grace in the world. The letter of St James covers this pretty well.
In it he speaks of the necessity of works - for faith without works is dead.

Also, the first two commandments forbid idolatry. It doesn’t sound fair that worshipers of another god or lack thereof should be punished, so I like the direction you’re bringing this topic.

Yes - it can get complicated - - especially if one is not starting from the very simple root of Agape.
After all - if you look at Mt 22:36-40 you will see that the two greatest commandments - and the basis for all the law and the prophets - one finds that they are all about agape…and agape must, by it’s nature take “ignorance” into account.

Thanks for the post. I’m all for self-improvement, and perhaps the most fundamental aspect of it is moral flourishing. I’m for all intents and purposes a eudaemonist and part of the philosophy is philanthropy.

In some way I have a very dualistic idea about humanity. While on one hand I’m cynical and feel like people generally only really care about themselves, I simultaneously have a certain degree of faith in humanity, seeing how much it has improved and progressed in history, and because I believe that most (if not all) people are instinctively ‘programmed’ to be love-oriented.

Grow in Love - the Holy Spirit will help with the rest…That’s my very simple view.

Peace
James

 

[missluckie26]

I’ve been quite distracted lately, my apologies. To be honest I got upset at this website itself for ignoring my pleas for help. I tried posting threads begging for scriptural support that I could use in argumentation with my father, who has decided to just let his diabetes kill him. He rejects even taking vitamins or ibuprofen, lives a solitary life as a truck driver, and has been in need of psychiatric medications for as long as I can remember. When I was growing up, since he gave us no other choice, we prayed. That’s all we could do to battle his mental illness. Needless to say that did not work and eventually mom left him for fear of her life. My dads dad committed a murder suicidewith my dads mom. So here I am the only link to society for my dad, and I’m quite alone in this battle with his illness which has intertwined with his faith monumentally. He believes and hopes he dies everytime I visit him and we part, he has loads of life insurance too put on him which is no ****ing good to me because I’d rather he live his one and only life happy and healthy. He’s going farther and farther from me in his mental state which is 100% consumed by his god and Bible. My heart has been breaking for years on end.
I asked in a less in depth way very politely in a thread I wanted posted, for Scriptural support to battle his illness and his choice to nit self medicate. AI also asked that if someone lived in my are who would be willing to help me form a spiritual intervention, and didn’t even get a message telling me why they wouldn’t post it.
My time has been spent trying to find this help elsewhere and surprisingly the only help I’ve actually gotten is from an ex pastor on an atheist forum. He said there was not much I can do.
I will return here after the holidays, I’m contemplating having him insstitutionalized although even that will just be stirring up the rattlesnakes since he merely has a wish to die
and a high risk job and that’s not against the law.

 

[frobert]

I wouldn’t; I would just pray and then continue to live Christ.

It’s a fallacy to think that there is going to be this perfect argument that is going to convert everyone. It is possible for people to perfectly understand something and reject it.

Excellent outlook.