"seek his face continually"?

[DPMartin]

Why would God tell His People to seek what can not be seen? Unless one has no idea where to look.

2Chron:7:14: If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1Chron:16:11: Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

Ps:105:4: Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Hosea:5:15: I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

 

[StTommyMore]

Why would God tell His People to seek what can not be seen? Unless one has no idea where to look.

2Chron:7:14: If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1Chron:16:11: Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

Ps:105:4: Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Hosea:5:15: I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Lets not look at these in an absolutely literal sense. We can seek that which cannot be physically seen.

 

[DPMartin]

Lets not look at these in an absolutely literal sense. We can seek that which cannot be physically seen.

StTommyMore

thanks for the reply

Noooooo: lets look at what God says, and why He said it, and how we are to do what He says. I mean what’s this section on this site of Sacred Scripture for, if it’s not to look at what God says in Scripture?

 

[Barbkw]

Take each book that you’ve listed and look at their historical significance in Jewish history.

1Chron:16:11:
usccb.org/nab/bible/1chronicles/intro.htm

2Chron:7:14:
usccb.org/nab/bible_hold/2chronicles/intro.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/11472a.htm

Ps:105:4:
usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/intro.htm

Hosea:5:15:.
usccb.org/nab/bible/hosea/intro.htm

Please report back what you’ve discovered.

 

[DPMartin]

Take each book that you’ve listed and look at their historical significance in Jewish history.

1Chron:16:11:
usccb.org/nab/bible/1chronicles/intro.htm

2Chron:7:14:
usccb.org/nab/bible_hold/2chronicles/intro.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/11472a.htm

Ps:105:4:
usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/intro.htm

Hosea:5:15:.
usccb.org/nab/bible/hosea/intro.htm

Please report back what you’ve discovered.

Barbkw
thanks for the reply and ref.

Why don’t you just tell me what you believe I should discover?

 

[FCEGM]

Why would God tell His People to seek what can not be seen? Unless one has no idea where to look.

2Chron:7:14: If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1Chron:16:11: Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

Ps:105:4: Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Hosea:5:15: I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

This from the Dictionary of Biblical Theology by Xavier Leon-Dufour, sheds light on what is meant by seeking the Face of God:

"Though God is not a man (Num. 23:19) and no creature can give an idea of His glory (Is. 40:18; 49:5), He has, nevertheless, plans and intentions, just as men do. He wants to enter into communication with man. And so even He has a face. He is able to turn to show His countenance in His kindness (Ps. 4:7; 80:4,8,20) and to hide it in His wrath (Is. 54:8; Ps. 30:8; 1-4:29).
"This divine countenance dwells in the midst of Israel. Though invisible it is nonetheless full of the extraordinary vitality of the living God, and this presence of the divine face is the strength of His people (Ex. 33:14; 2 Sam 17:11; Dt. 4:37). This is what gives meaning to the cultic desire to see the face of God (Ps. 42:3) and to 'seek the face of God (Am. 5:4; Ps. 27:8; Ps. 105:4). But because the face of Yahweh is that of a holy and just God, only “the upright will behold His face” (Ps. 11:7).

 

[TimothyH]

I’m sure there is an allegory or metaphor there which I am in no way competent to comment on.

But it occurs to me that since God entered time through the womb of a virgin and was born a man, God does have a face - God’'s face is the face of Jesus.

And Jesus is still with us in the Eucharist, no?

I don’t know where I’m going with this or even if it makes sense but there it is for what it’s worth.

-Tim-

 

[FCEGM]

I’m sure there is an allegory or metaphor there which I am in no way competent to comment on.

But it occurs to me that since God entered time through the womb of a virgin and was born a man, God does have a face - God’'s face is the face of Jesus.

And Jesus is still with us in the Eucharist, no?

I don’t know where I’m going with this or even if it makes sense but there it is for what it’s worth.

-Tim-

And remember St. Therese of Lisieux’s great devotion to the Holy Face.

 

[StTommyMore]

StTommyMore

thanks for the reply

Noooooo: lets look at what God says, and why He said it, and how we are to do what He says. I mean what’s this section on this site of Sacred Scripture for, if it’s not to look at what God says in Scripture?

You cannot interpret Scripture without identifying genre, literary devices, historical context, placement in the Canon, use in liturgy, or magisterial application. You cannot simply look at the words themselves and expect that to be enough to make a proper exegesis.

 

[TimothyH]

You cannot interpret Scripture without identifying genre, literary devices, historical context, placement in the Canon, use in liturgy, or magisterial application. You cannot simply look at the words themselves and expect that to be enough to make a proper exegesis.

Amen amen!

Add to that the social, political and economic context under which the authors of Sacred Scripture and their intended audiences operated. We don’t even rememer what one hundred year old political phrases like “Copperhead” and “Yellow dog” mean, let alone phraseology associated with political and social concepts which are thousands of years old such as the practice of foot washing.

Being “Redeemed” from a debtor’s prison.
Bing given the “Keys to the kingdom” by a king, made “lord over the house” or clothed in purple robes.
The practice of “Going out to meet” someone.
Contesting with your opponent “at the gate”

It’s raining cats and dogs.
It’s coming down in buckets
The decision is still up in the air ← my personal fave
I’m flat broke
I live in a red state
He shot himself in the foot.

Yep, so easy a plow-boy could understand it.

 

[John7]

Why would God tell His People to seek what can not be seen? Unless one has no idea where to look.

2Chron:7:14: If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1Chron:16:11: Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

Ps:105:4: Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Hosea:5:15: I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

2 more

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

 

[Crumpy]

I’m sure there is an allegory or metaphor there which I am in no way competent to comment on.

But it occurs to me that since God entered time through the womb of a virgin and was born a man, God does have a face - God’'s face is the face of Jesus.

And Jesus is still with us in the Eucharist, no?

I don’t know where I’m going with this or even if it makes sense but there it is for what it’s worth.

-Tim-

I think this is a great insight. By extension, we can look at all the anthropomorphizing in the OT and weigh that in respect to Jesus.

That’s the same way in which Jesus fulfills the OT – when we see a command in the OT, e.g. thou shalt not murder, we see Jesus as the perfect fulfillment of that command. He is the only One who can obey all the commands of the OT.

As it says in Hebrews someplace, Abraham saw from afar.

 

[DPMartin]

You cannot interpret Scripture without identifying genre, literary devices, historical context, placement in the Canon, use in liturgy, or magisterial application. You cannot simply look at the words themselves and expect that to be enough to make a proper exegesis.

StTommyMore

thanks for the reply

It’s a Blessed thing that the Lord God doesn’t operate under your rules or by your permission. Were as only the highly educated in the Catholic Religion and the authorities thereof, can know and understand God’s Word. In Truth, it is a Blessing.

The Truth of God is revealed not interpreted, that is the Rock the Church is founded on. Though yes I understand that’s not the way of the authorities of the Catholic Church. (No offence)

 

[DPMartin]

I’m sure there is an allegory or metaphor there which I am in no way competent to comment on.

But it occurs to me that since God entered time through the womb of a virgin and was born a man, God does have a face - God’'s face is the face of Jesus.

And Jesus is still with us in the Eucharist, no?

I don’t know where I’m going with this or even if it makes sense but there it is for what it’s worth.

-Tim-

Tim, you might be onto something there

Could God’s Face be the fulfillment of:
Love, Trust, Hope, Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Mercy, Righteousness, Judgement, the Truth, the Way the Life, which are manifestations of God’s expectations in mankind. Which does not require religion. But it does require one’s life, for these things to be manifest therein, that others would see? Wasn’t this seen in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ?

And to seek His Face could that mean that others would see Him in us?

 

[DPMartin]

This from the Dictionary of Biblical Theology by Xavier Leon-Dufour, sheds light on what is meant by seeking the Face of God:

FCEGM

Thanks

 

[DPMartin]

2 more

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

John7

thanks for the posting

You know, your posting reminded me that after the Lord God revealed Himself to Moses. Moses’ face shined so bright that from then on Moses had to were a vail over his face. It is considered by the Hebrew Rabbis that what was announced when Moses saw God’s back, is the Thirteen Mercies.

 

[fhansen]

To seek Gods face is to seek to know God. And the ultimate knowledge of God is the Beatific Vision in heaven. Meanwhile, we see as through a dim glass (1Cor 13) with the eyes of faith but the world was given a much huger insight through the person of Jesus Christ at the Incarnation.

**Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? **John 14:9

Also Catholic saints have been given direct glimpses of this vision. In any case the vision of God always concerns the gift of direct, immediate knowledge of Him-His essence, or Who-He-is, and not about physical sight. This knowledge is what our faith is all about. It’s the purpose of our existence and the source of unending happiness for man.

 

[TimothyH]

Tim, you might be onto something there

Could God’s Face be the fulfillment of:
Love, Trust, Hope, Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Mercy, Righteousness, Judgement, the Truth, the Way the Life, which are manifestations of God’s expectations in mankind. Which does not require religion. But it does require one’s life, for these things to be manifest therein, that others would see? Wasn’t this seen in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ?

And to seek His Face could that mean that others would see Him in us?

I see your point but the fact is that religion is the primary means by which we are taught about God and his revelation to man. Religion is the institution which perpetuates God’s teaching through the ages.

Christians do not pick up a Bible and start reading from a state of zero knowledge any more than engineering students pick up a mathematics book and start with 1+1=2. There is an entire body of knowledge and experience which was brought down through written and unwritten understanding, handed on from generation to generation in both written and oral form. In the case of engineers, we call it the university, apprenticship and internship. In the case of Christianity, we call it religion. If you have ever read a devotional, spiritual work, or read an explanation of theological matters, you are participating in religion.

For untold centuries, man has leared about God through religion. Only in the last 50 years have Christians been handed a Bible with a wish of good luck and zero instruction. And look where we are now, contracepting ourselves to avoid Children so that we can afford our hedonistic lifestles, 25% of men addicted to porn, 1.5 million children butchered each year, “I’m gonna F—'n kill you” lyrics on the radio, $10,000 average houshold debt, children growing up on day care while mommy and daddy work so that they can afford a bigger SUV with an entertainment system to hypnotize their children so that they don’t have to talk to them while they drive them to day care!

The fact is that I see the face of God every day when I enter the adoration chapel at my Church and gaze upon the blessed sacrament. I see the face of God whenever I go to Mass.The priest says the words of institution, “This IS my body” and “This IS the cup of my blood” and Jesus Christ, the face of God himself, becomes present upon the altar. I hear the worlds of God himself speaking when the priest says, “I absolve you of your sins.” I watched God say, “This is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased” last Saturday as a Deacon poured water over a child named James Christopher and said, “I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

I see the face of God every time I drive past a Catholic Church.

I totally reject the premise that you can experience Christ fully without the benefit of religion, which after all, brought you the very Bible which you believe teaches you that you don’t need religion!The idea, quite frankly, is absurd. Religious anarchy will always devolve into paganism and ambiguous forms of spiritualism where God is what you think and feel.

I’m so frustrated with the spiritualization of Christianity into non-existence.

-Tim-

 

[DPMartin]

Timothy

thanks very much for your reply

I see your point but the fact is that religion is the primary means by which we are taught about God and his revelation to man. Religion is the institution which perpetuates God’s teaching through the ages.

Scroll back there friend, Adam and Eve where in the garden and walked with God before the fall. Their memories of that were not erased, after they had to leave the garden. (No religion there). Such knowledge and human history passed down by Noah who lived until Abram was 50 if my memory serves, (no religion there) Abraham Isaac and Jacob were a family that grew into a nation while in Egypt. (No religion there) Moses was used to establish a nation that was able to be one. (No religion there). The Word of God is substantiated in the lives lived, that where documented long before there was a Catholic Church. (Not in religion). The Apostles Witnessed to us what they experienced in their lives lived. (Not religion) also long before Christianity was permitted by the Emperor of Rome to take the place in the Roman Empire as Rome’s Religion. Of which Rome had Religions long before the Catholic Church was establish as the religion of the Empire. Therefore God gave the Christians of the Roman Empire the opportunity to spread the good news of Jesus Christ through out the nations, by taking the place offered to them. Of which the Lord blessed and sustained, for the sake of those to be saved, not to the glory of the religion of Catholicism.

Christians do not pick up a Bible and start reading from a state of zero knowledge any more than engineering students pick up a mathematics book and start with 1+1=2. There is an entire body of knowledge and experience which was brought down through written and unwritten understanding, handed on from generation to generation in both written and oral form. In the case of engineers, we call it the university, apprenticship and internship. In the case of Christianity, we call it religion. If you have ever read a devotional, spiritual work, or read an explanation of theological matters, you are participating in religion.

One thing that can be learned in the field of engineering, of which I’ve spent some time working with. Is you can have a impressive toolbox full of the best tools made, but if you don’t know how to but then to work effectively you accomplish nothing but difficulty for others in their honest effort to get things done. Therefore you can have a ton of the best information available to you but if you no not how it is to be applied, your no more useful then without the information. As some say, one can know enough to be dangerous to the cause at hand.

Note: the cause at hand in the case we speak is the salvation of souls, not the glorification of a Church, or religion. For if a Church or religion seeks to glorify itself, to what good is that to God who is Glory?

For untold centuries, man has leared about God through religion. Only in the last 50 years have Christians been handed a Bible with a wish of good luck and zero instruction. And look where we are now, contracepting ourselves to avoid Children so that we can afford our hedonistic lifestles, 25% of men addicted to porn, 1.5 million children butchered each year, “I’m gonna F—'n kill you” lyrics on the radio, $10,000 average houshold debt, children growing up on day care while mommy and daddy work so that they can afford a bigger SUV with an entertainment system to hypnotize their children so that they don’t have to talk to them while they drive them to day care!

One should consider, God hears the cry of His People in their own circumstances, but the accusations of the children of men are not permitted in His Presence considering what He forgives to allow anyone of the children of men in His Presence. Of which of course we all can easily fall short therein. We can not choose for others what they have in their hearts, for what is in a man’s heart he seeks the opportunity to do. But if the Light shines into the world, those who seek the Way, may find it.

Note in the book of Judges God rased those who were judges to deliver the People of God from their circumstances as a result of their turning from Him, and cried unto Him, not to condemn them for their wrong doing. Man condemns, God Delivers, mankind cannot escape what is in his own heart, it’s impossible, and in that do men condemn themselves and are condemned already (with out any help from anyone else), but it is the Mercy of God to write His Name, His Commandments , and Law in our hearts that we would seek the fulfillment thereof in ourselves. Hoping that in that fulfillment others would see and receive the same. Otherwise we would do the same as the “old man” as Apostle Paul has described. Now the “new man” because of what the Lord God has written in our hearts, seeks the fulfillment of what is in our hearts. Which is true Mercy and Grace, of which we did not earn, that we would even have the desire for His Ways.

(Continued next posting)

 

[DPMartin]

The fact is that I see the face of God every day when I enter the adoration chapel at my Church and gaze upon the blessed sacrament. I see the face of God whenever I go to Mass.The priest says the words of institution, “This IS my body” and “This IS the cup of my blood” and Jesus Christ, the face of God himself, becomes present upon the altar. I hear the worlds of God himself speaking when the priest says, “I absolve you of your sins.” I watched God say, “This is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased” last Saturday as a Deacon poured water over a child named James Christopher and said, “I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Truly there is uplifting and edification in the declaration of others in the same Faith and thank the Lord no one is stopping you from sharing therein whether it be works of art and architecture or the creation around you, that reminded us of His Glory, or the documented Word, or the hearing thereof. If a man acknowledges the Lord in all that he does, surly the Lord is pleased therein.

I see the face of God every time I drive past a Catholic Church.

I totally reject the premise that you can experience Christ fully without the benefit of religion, which after all, brought you the very Bible which you believe teaches you that you don’t need religion!The idea, quite frankly, is absurd. Religious anarchy will always devolve into paganism and ambiguous forms of spiritualism where God is what you think and feel.

I’m so frustrated with the spiritualization of Christianity into non-existence.

-Tim

It is a fact that the Lord God made man to walk with his feet on the ground. But let me ask you this, when God made Adam, did He make him from the outside like one would work with there hands to shape a thing? Or did the Lord God make Adam from within Adam? considering God is Spirit according to Jesus.

And since God is Spirit according to Jesus, who is the Word of God the Truth of God revealed to mankind. What is more important, Spirit, or physical experiences?

Didn’t Jesus say that heaven and earth will pass away but His Word remains forever? (Not a quote mind you) so in that Truth alone, what is more important?