"seek his face continually"?

[TimothyH]

The Apostles Witnessed to us what they experienced in their lives lived. (Not religion) also long before Christianity was permitted by the Emperor of Rome to take the place in the Roman Empire as Rome’s Religion. Of which Rome had Religions long before the Catholic Church was establish as the religion of the Empire. Therefore God gave the Christians of the Roman Empire the opportunity to spread the good news of Jesus Christ through out the nations, by taking the place offered to them. Of which the Lord blessed and sustained, for the sake of those to be saved, not to the glory of the religion of Catholicism.

It’s not factually accurate to state that the Church was not organized into a “Religion” and operating as such before it was legalized. Nor may it be factually accurate to state that Moses, the Judges, et al operated exclusively outside of the confines of organized religion either. Abraham did tithe to a priest named Melchizedek, after all. What was that about?

Other religions aside, the Catholic Church is more than just art, music, buidings, books and rituals. The fact is that the Holy Spirit - God himself - is alive and operating in the Catholic Church in a way that unique, in a way that he is not operational in any individual or any other organization. Jesus Christ is present substantially, sacramentally, Eucharistically, in the Holy Catholic Church in a way that he is not in any individual or organization other than those who receive him, which can only be done through the Church. That makes the Holy Catholic Church and the Holy Catholic Religion a special instrument of God’s will and God’s grace for mankind and his chosen means of revelation to man and the members of that Church the recipients of that grace and revelation.

Hanging out on these forums, you sould know the Catholic position on this by now. You are not going to get much else from me.

*When they climbed out on shore, they saw a charcoal fire with fish on it and bread. Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you just caught.” So Simon Peter went over and dragged the net ashore full of one hundred fifty-three large fish. Even though there were so many, the net was not torn. (John 21:9-11)*It’s a beautiful picture of the end of time. Peter the Pope, the Fisher of Men, single handedly drags the net which represents the Church, onto shore and lays it at Jesus’ feet. The net was not torn - the greek word for tear is “Scizm.” Again, it is a beautifl picture of the end of time, when Jesus is cooking fish and bread - preparing the marriage supper of the lamb - and the Peter lays the untorn net - the unified Church - and all those who are saved through it at Jesus’ feet.

I want to be in the net!

If you don’t want to be in the net then all I have to say is good luck with that and I’ll be praying for ya.

I think we are a little off topic and so if you want, I’ll give you the final word. Just to tie it back, I think, in part, the Catholic Church, the Eucharist, the words of absolution, the Bible, as well as contemplative prayer, etc. are all aspects of the “Face of God.”

-Tim-

 

[DPMartin]

To seek Gods face is to seek to know God. And the ultimate knowledge of God is the Beatific Vision in heaven. Meanwhile, we see as through a dim glass (1Cor 13) with the eyes of faith but the world was given a much huger insight through the person of Jesus Christ at the Incarnation.

**Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? **John 14:9

Also Catholic saints have been given direct glimpses of this vision. In any case the vision of God always concerns the gift of direct, immediate knowledge of Him-His essence, or Who-He-is, and not about physical sight. This knowledge is what our faith is all about. It’s the purpose of our existence and the source of unending happiness for man.

fhansen

thanks for the reply

Nicely said. Amen.

So like I asked Tim, when God made Adam, did He make him from the outside like one would work with there hands to shape a thing? Or did the Lord God make Adam from within Adam?

Consider if the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit in within you, how would the Face of God be seen? And could it be that the Torah is like unto that dim glass as referred to in Paul’s teachings. Since it was Paul who was a scholar there of even before the road to Damascus, and it is understood that Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets to the Father’s Satisfaction. Does a glass reflect even a portion that which is facing it, especially if it be Light.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen

thanks for the reply

Nicely said. Amen.

So like I asked Tim, when God made Adam, did He make him from the outside like one would work with there hands to shape a thing? Or did the Lord God make Adam from within Adam?

Consider if the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit in within you, how would the Face of God be seen? And could it be that the Torah is like unto that dim glass as referred to in Paul’s teachings. Since it was Paul who was a scholar there of even before the road to Damascus, and it is understood that Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets to the Father’s Satisfaction. Does a glass reflect even a portion that which is facing it, especially if it be Light.

I’m not sure I understand the questions. But I can say that God has simply revealed Himself to man, first of all through the Jews, and the carrying on or proclaiming of that revelation became religion in the sense that an organized means of defining, containing, and spreading the word is a necessary part of Gods plan of salvation. The actual experience of God-the seeing “face to face”-is the goal. This is certainly a spiritual experience-and one that only God can grant whether we’re in the spirit or in the flesh simply because He’s infinitely superior to us in either case. IOW, we could never comprehend-or knowHim -without His assistance.

 

[DPMartin]

The actual experience of God-the seeing “face to face”-is the goal. This is certainly a spiritual experience-and one that only God can grant whether we’re in the spirit or in the flesh simply because He’s infinitely superior to us in either case. IOW, we could never comprehend-or knowHim -without His assistance.

That is most certainly true

thanks for the reply

 

[Hineni]

StTommyMore

thanks for the reply

Noooooo: lets look at what God says, and why He said it, and how we are to do what He says. I mean what’s this section on this site of Sacred Scripture for, if it’s not to look at what God says in Scripture?

My favorite verse:

---

Isaiah 55***

"Is anyone thirsty? Come and drink – even if you have no money! Come, take your choice of wine or milk – it’s all free! 2 Why spend your money on food that does not give you strength? Why pay for food that does you no good? Listen, and I will tell you where to get food that is good for the soul! 3 "Come to me with your ears wide open.

 

[DPMartin]

My favorite verse:

---

Isaiah 55***

"Is anyone thirsty? Come and drink – even if you have no money! Come, take your choice of wine or milk – it’s all free! 2 Why spend your money on food that does not give you strength? Why pay for food that does you no good? Listen, and I will tell you where to get food that is good for the soul! 3 "Come to me with your ears wide open.

Hineni

thanks for the reply

Amen to that.

Prov:13:25: The righteous eateth to the satisfying of his soul: but the belly of the wicked shall want.

“Give us this day our daily bread”, can mean groceries to some, but it means the Bread of Life to those who seek the Lord.

 

[DPMartin]

It’s not factually accurate to state that the Church was not organized into a “Religion” and operating as such before it was legalized. Nor may it be factually accurate to state that Moses, the Judges, et al operated exclusively outside of the confines of organized religion either. Abraham did tithe to a priest named Melchizedek, after all. What was that about?

Other religions aside, the Catholic Church is more than just art, music, buidings, books and rituals. The fact is that the Holy Spirit - God himself - is alive and operating in the Catholic Church in a way that unique, in a way that he is not operational in any individual or any other organization. Jesus Christ is present substantially, sacramentally, Eucharistically, in the Holy Catholic Church in a way that he is not in any individual or organization other than those who receive him, which can only be done through the Church. That makes the Holy Catholic Church and the Holy Catholic Religion a special instrument of God’s will and God’s grace for mankind and his chosen means of revelation to man and the members of that Church the recipients of that grace and revelation.

Hanging out on these forums, you sould know the Catholic position on this by now. You are not going to get much else from me.

When they climbed out on shore, they saw a charcoal fire with fish on it and bread. Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you just caught.” So Simon Peter went over and dragged the net ashore full of one hundred fifty-three large fish. Even though there were so many, the net was not torn. (John 21:9-11)It’s a beautiful picture of the end of time. Peter the Pope, the Fisher of Men, single handedly drags the net which represents the Church, onto shore and lays it at Jesus’ feet. The net was not torn - the greek word for tear is “Scizm.” Again, it is a beautifl picture of the end of time, when Jesus is cooking fish and bread - preparing the marriage supper of the lamb - and the Peter lays the untorn net - the unified Church - and all those who are saved through it at Jesus’ feet.

I want to be in the net!

If you don’t want to be in the net then all I have to say is good luck with that and I’ll be praying for ya.

I think we are a little off topic and so if you want, I’ll give you the final word. Just to tie it back, I think, in part, the Catholic Church, the Eucharist, the words of absolution, the Bible, as well as contemplative prayer, etc. are all aspects of the “Face of God.”

-Tim-

Tim
thanks for the reply

You know, the Catholic Church may be the only Church for you, God Bless, no one is against that. But what makes you think the Catholic Church is the only Church? Considering that it is Jesus that is the Way.

Why the constant condemnation of those who are not Catholic?

 

[Hineni]

Hineni

thanks for the reply

Amen to that.

Prov:13:25: The righteous eateth to the satisfying of his soul: but the belly of the wicked shall want.

“Give us this day our daily bread”, can mean groceries to some, but it means the Bread of Life to those who seek the Lord.

Jesus said to them, `I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world… This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever’ " (John 6:32-33, 58).

Yes - I agree which reminds me on how bread is made?

Interesting take on Isaiah 28:23 - 29

23 **Listen and hear my voice; pay attention and hear what I say.**24 When a farmer plows for planting, does he plow continually? Does he keep on breaking up and working the soil? 25 When he has leveled the surface, does he not sow caraway and scatter cumin? Does he not plant wheat in its place, barley in its plot, and spelt in its field? 26 His God instructs him and teaches him the right way.

27 Caraway is not threshed with a sledge, nor is the wheel of a cart rolled over cumin;
caraway is beaten out with a rod, and cumin with a stick.28 Grain must be ground to make bread; so one does not go on threshing it forever.The wheels of a threshing cart may be rolled over it, but one does not use horses to grind grain.29 **All this also comes from the LORD Almighty, whose plan is wonderful, whose wisdom is magnificent.

The Apostle Paul wrote, “He which sows bountifully shall reap also bountifully” (2 Cor. 9:6). So what you will sow you will (also) reap - In the Scriptures, we see that sowing must come before reaping but time and manner of plowing, sowing and reaping coincides with the “right order” of things (vs 23 “right order” - to - vs 29; "counsel) which will serve for the time of harvest. There will be a natural order to things - as well as - there will be (also) a spiritual order. Both are comparable (as in an order) to how someone will listen and do (that is, in the doing -the processing of the planting (God’s Word), sowing (cultivating it - to strengthen it) and then reaping (vv.24-26, 27-29), See James 1:22 -25 (edit) (listening and doing) Since sowing has two actions, plowing and planting, each must take place at the appropriate time (vv. 27-28)- so the aspect of time has a major role to play …(in order to make a point)**

 

[DPMartin]

Jesus said to them, `I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world… This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever’ " (John 6:32-33, 58).

Yes - I agree which reminds me on how bread is made?

Interesting take on Isaiah 28:23 - 29

23 Listen and hear my voice; pay attention and hear what I say.24 When a farmer plows for planting, does he plow continually? Does he keep on breaking up and working the soil? 25 When he has leveled the surface, does he not sow caraway and scatter cumin? Does he not plant wheat in its place, barley in its plot, and spelt in its field? 26 His God instructs him and teaches him the right way.

27 Caraway is not threshed with a sledge, nor is the wheel of a cart rolled over cumin;
caraway is beaten out with a rod, and cumin with a stick.28 Grain must be ground to make bread; so one does not go on threshing it forever.The wheels of a threshing cart may be rolled over it, but one does not use horses to grind grain.29 **All this also comes from the LORD Almighty, whose plan is wonderful, whose wisdom is magnificent.

The Apostle Paul wrote, “He which sows bountifully shall reap also bountifully” (2 Cor. 9:6). So what you will sow you will (also) reap - In the Scriptures, we see that sowing must come before reaping but time and manner of plowing, sowing and reaping coincides with the “right order” of things (vs 23 “right order” - to - vs 29; "counsel) which will serve for the time of harvest. There will be a natural order to things - as well as - there will be (also) a spiritual order. Both are comparable (as in an order) to how someone will listen and do (that is, in the doing -the processing of the planting (God’s Word), sowing (cultivating it - to strengthen it) and then reaping (vv.24-26, 27-29), See James 1:22 -25 (edit) (listening and doing)** Since sowing has two actions, plowing and planting, each must take place at the appropriate time (vv. 27-28)- so the aspect of time has a major role to play …(in order to make a point)

Hineni

thanks very much for your posting.

On that note, it may be time to take a break.

The Lord be with you always.

 

[Hineni]

Hineni

thanks very much for your posting.

On that note, it may be time to take a break.

The Lord be with you always.

**Interesting take on Isaiah 28:23 – 29 (seeing this verse as a metaphor)

“23 Listen and hear my voice; pay attention and hear what I say.24 When a farmer plows for planting, does he plow continually? Does he keep on breaking up and working the soil? 25 When he has leveled the surface, does he not sow caraway and scatter cumin? Does he not plant wheat in its place, barley in its plot, and spelt in its field? 26 His God instructs him and teaches him the right way.”

The above verse is comparable to John 5:19, John 12:49 : bible.cc/john/5-19.htm “he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.” – You could even say that the verse is comparable to one who is righteous before God – Luke1:6 “Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly”, or even, Psalm 119:1 “1 Blessed are those whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the LORD. Blessed are those who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart—or even, Tobit 4:4 – 21 “"Through all your days, my son, keep the Lord in mind, and suppress every desire to sin or to break his commandments. Perform good works all the days of your life, and do not tread the paths of wrongdoing.6 For if you are steadfast in your service, your good works will bring success, not only to you, but also to all those who live uprightly.

27 Caraway is not threshed with a sledge, nor is the wheel of a cart rolled over cumin;
caraway is beaten out with a rod, and cumin with a stick.28 Grain must be ground to make bread; so one does not go on threshing it forever. The wheels of a threshing cart may be rolled over it, but one does not use horses to grind grain.29 All this also comes from the LORD Almighty, whose plan is wonderful, whose wisdom is magnificent.

In a very plain explanation and example: Look at the beginning of scripture, the New Testament, when reading about anyone of the apostles, as is, (again) from the start. What is noticeable about them and their relationship with Jesus? Prior to the beginning of Pentecost and afterwards, strength was given to the apostle in faith (Luke 17:5 “And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith”) – Jesus had asked them “who do people say that I am” – isn’t he the tiller of the soil (metaphorically speaking) knowing exactly what a person needs and also instructing them & others throughout the New Testament, Luke 10:26 and in John 8:26 (He will judge with grace, mercy, and justice) I noticed strength, faith and love – belief and trust, which is the bread of Life to all those who believe. I have to use (again) specifically Peter, as a great example - Cephas in Aramaic, Petros [rock] in Greek, as “Yes” he was the “Rock”. The Apostle Paul wrote, “He which sows bountifully shall reap also bountifully” (2 Cor. 9:6). So what you will sow you will (also) reap - In the Scriptures, we see that sowing must come before reaping but time and manner of plowing, sowing and reaping coincides with the “right order” of things (vs 23 “right order” - to - vs 29; "counsel”) which will serve for the time of harvest. There will be a natural order to things - as well as - there will be (also) a spiritual order. Both are comparable (as in an order) to how someone will listen and do (that is, in the doing -the processing of the planting (God’s Word), sowing (cultivating it - to strengthen it) and then reaping (vv.24-26, 27-29), See James 1:22 -25 (edit) (listening and doing) Since sowing has two actions, plowing and planting, each must take place at the appropriate time (vv. 27-28)- so the aspect of time has a major role to play …(in order to make a point)

 

[Hineni]

Following the last post with this thought from your post: "Give us this day our daily bread", can mean groceries to some, but it means the Bread of Life to those who seek the Lord.”

Give us our daily Bread - What does Bread symbolize in the Old Testament - and in the New? The law, God’s Word…John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

From the New Testament: The Parable of the Sower

• The sower sows the word (Much like creation - Genesis)
• The seeds falling on the road represent those who hear the word but dismiss it straight away - the synoptic state that the wicked one (Matthew’s wording)/Satan (Mark’s wording) is what takes the word away
• The seeds falling on the rocks represent those who hear the word, but only accept it shallowly - the synoptic state that these sorts of people reject the word as soon as it causes them affliction or persecution
• The seeds falling on thorns represent those who hear the word, and take it to heart, but allow worldly concerns, such as money, to choke it.
• The seeds falling on good soil represents those who hear the word, and truly understand it, causing it to bear fruit.

The parable above teaches the same concept - do and understand in the verses: When we understand this parable and apply it to how we view our faith, and the seeds we sow in faith through our actions (the “do and understand”), our words and from our prayers, we bercome see that God blesses us abundantly. Studying the word of God (the Gospel) vs. Action…We will do and understand or Understand the commands and then apply them - applies to James 1:22 - 25.

***The concept of Matthew 5:19: ***

Listing that the Israelite were instructed to follow “all the commands”…not just a few and not partial. The Mosaic Laws ( there are 613 mitzvahs (following them explicitly) were considered as one single unit - and even between the lines. In Numbers 15:22, refers to a sin - but what kind of a sin? and How does the text indicate this?15:22 - Idolatry. “All these commandments” means one transgression which is equal to transgressing all the commandments - i.e. idolatry. As Jesus instructs (Luke 10:25-37) - highlighting 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” In this verse - S/B “How do you interpret it” - Jesus is a great teacher of the law…!

 

[Hineni]

DPMartin:

Scroll back there friend, Adam and Eve where in the garden and walked with God before the fall. Their memories of that were not erased, after they had to leave the garden. (No religion there). Such knowledge and human history passed down by Noah who lived until Abram was 50 if my memory serves, (no religion there) Abraham Isaac and Jacob were a family that grew into a nation while in Egypt. (No religion there) Moses was used to establish a nation that was able to be one. (No religion there). The Word of God is substantiated in the lives lived, that where documented long before there was a Catholic Church. (Not in religion). The Apostles Witnessed to us what they experienced in their lives lived. (Not religion) also long before Christianity was permitted by the Emperor of Rome to take the place in the Roman Empire as Rome’s Religion. Of which Rome had Religions long before the Catholic Church was establish as the religion of the Empire. Therefore God gave the Christians of the Roman Empire the opportunity to spread the good news of Jesus Christ through out the nations, by taking the place offered to them. Of which the Lord blessed and sustained, for the sake of those to be saved, not to the glory of the religion of Catholicism.

I don’t agree with you on this part of your post the “No religion there”, at least, to some extent of the thought. If we define the word “religion”, it is a set of beliefs (in common), practices and a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes or we can (just) define it by the Latin word religare, which means “to tie, to bind.(See link: “, that religion has received its name.”)

“To tie or bind”, becomes (in a sense) a wholeness or completeness, understanding such in religion, which can take on a new identity, that is, the idea behind it can be changed through interpretation/arguments/rulings. Wholeness refers to a completeness - as in Ezekiel description of the joining the all houses together into one stick so that they will become one. (Ezekiel 37:17) Even though, and as stated in your post, “Of which the Lord blessed and sustained, for the sake of those to be saved, not to the glory of the religion of Catholicism.” Catholicism, like any other religion- is an identity or title; to the fact of a set of beliefs that all members believe to be a truth. I know there was a thread titled (or something similar) “Is there a difference between Catholic and Christian?” - there’s no difference - and I don’t ever feel there is or was.

Just as such; ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you (this is a religion) - because by the statement, God remains and dwells - continually with the Israelites,’ and they ask me, ’ What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers — the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob — has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation (Exodus 3:13-15). - Judaism, has a set of beliefs that administers to a directive path or set of values to define a way of Jewish life - which that path leads toward pleasing God- interpret “the way of God” (Psalm 119: 33 Teach me, LORD, the way of your decrees, that I may follow it to the end. 34 Give me understanding, so that I may keep your law and obey it with all my heart. 35 Direct me in the path of your commands, for there I find delight.) The community maybe family (and such accordingly to your post) but these commandments (if not followed) can make one family a non-observant member - cut off from the rest (leading one down the crooked path, to sin(chet)) but whatever it is considered, it is a religion (even dating back to Mt Zion) - “To tie or bind” can turn into "powerful phrase naaseh v’nishma, which is usually translated as “we will do and we will hear,” (Exodus 24:7) - There are a set of principles that distinguishes one as being a Jew; as such, so it is a religion with a set of observances, not as “family” (as you’ve listed) or else all would be immigrating to Israel - as all would like to. (see: Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger)

 

[Hineni]

continue…

There was a religion established at the time of the giving of the law:
Moses was not a king but a prophet and yet he was the closest man to God which (if we read) had the authority to relay God’s word to the Israelite-as well as set up a judicial system of laws (Halacha - on Mt Sinai); and establish a priesthood (Aaron)and even to announce God’s punishments for violations toward the commandments. So if (and again) we were to define the word religion - it would include a set of principles (as a people) and a belief (as a community) to ensure follow them.

We could (also)illustrate this, in the case of Universe; the notion of parts from the entire whole and between Intent and Extent-right? This wholeness that we see every night, only what we see above us, which is visible to the eye. What’s beyond? (like the spiritual side to religion) Everything the stars and planets work just like a clock, each following their gear and routine (principles - beliefs - practices). Alignments happen every hour… 1:05 and five seconds… 8:40 and 40 seconds… and the sky is no different, such is based on what? Boundaries? Limitations? Everything has order and laws?Also, we know when something is out of line with the rest of the group (in other words, when sin creeps in) - God keeps everything in place (Psalms 104) …

"The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified."Isaiah 60:21