Seeking a common ground.

[Mirdath]

I must say…that article is beautiful – humane and intelligent and poetic. May we all learn to set aside our many differences in the interest of greater understanding and friendship, without fear, all of us, of all religions and none.

 

[dessert]

I always had this great feeling that our respect for Mary is shared by our Muslim cousins. They even have a book in the Koran, the Virgin birth of Jesus is retold. The Muslims even believe in the Immaculate Conception. ewtn.com/library/MARY/MARYKRAN.HTM

So I believe that if we ask Mary to intercede in reaching the hearts of those who claim to be good Muslims, they may reach the hearts of the terrorists in turn.
As a saint in heaven, and the Mother of God, I think she wields lots of influence when it comes to miracles.

This is a good article and very democratic with the Vatican remarks I appreciate it much. Thanks
She continues to do miracles in my life. Dessert

 

[dessert]

I understand what you are saying Manny and since Ive come here I find your heart growing completely, Seriously I see your posts tones changing over the past while it is a good thing.

So help us understand this not with out stain. She was let go of original sin from Adam/Eve or overcame it? Or God wiped it away from her with Grace.

It actually bothers me that somehow God would have just made her perfect, I thought it was her life she led before the angel came to her, that God would have been preparing her heart. Her being like “us” not separate made me feel like I could rise above things, as she went through a awful time being pregnant, that most would not understand, but held firm to what she needed to do. And Joseph (who gets forgotton alot) did as well, the struggle is something we cant get. Putting their lives in the hands of God.

Whats that verse though He slay me I will trust Him? Dont know if it fits but I just thought of it.

Also, thinking about the whole thing, Elizabeth, think of it wanting a son, finally getting one, only to have his head chopped! Today a mother would be sueing God! Not praising Him.

If you even go back to Genisis, I love to study this book alot anymore, Eve also lost a son.
Cain killed Abel as the story goes and yet Eve did not curse God but proclaimed that when she was given another(Seth) she praised God for giving her another son to replace the one.

And in turn Jesus gives Mary another son at the cross(JOhn) as she is to lose one but of course she is gaining a savior.

This I feel is truth and justice to the Lord’s way as is forgiveness, for what does it do to seek revenge?

I have not suffered in any of this way but now see more miracles that I am more consentrated to God’s will prayerfully.

Dessert

 

[Sixtus]

A dear friend of mine is a very holy woman. She is also a great ambassador for the faith. She is a frequent visitor in Non-Catholic Communities. She engages with them in ecumenical initiatives and involves herself with community projects they deliver ‘under their own banner’.

I believe that is the way to take the faith to other Christians. After all that can be said, actions speak louder than words!

 

[dessert]

A dear friend of mine is a very holy woman. She is also a great ambassador for the faith. She is a frequent visitor in Non-Catholic Communities. She engages with them in ecumenical initiatives and involves herself with community projects they deliver ‘under their own banner’.

I believe that is the way to take the faith to other Christians. After all that can be said, actions speak louder than words!

We have a group of all the Churches all faiths that contribute food (and money but mostly food )to Echo (Everbody Cooperating to Help Others) and yes this action unites us in helping the homeless and poor. dessert

 

[Bennie_P]

We have a group of all the Churches all faiths that contribute food (and money but mostly food )to Echo (Everbody Cooperating to Help Others) and yes this action unites us in helping the homeless and poor. dessert

 

[Kitty_Chan]

If you even go back to Genisis, I love to study this book alot anymore, Eve also lost a son.
Cain killed Abel as the story goes and yet Eve did not curse God but proclaimed that when she was given another(Seth) she praised God for giving her another son to replace the one.

Dessert

was that “with the help of the Lord I have brought forth a son” or was that the first son?

I also remember reading that statement for the first time and was so impressed, here they were kicked out and should have been cursing God as you say and there was none of that. Eve saying that is one of the highlights of scripture for me, just her undying faith and joy.

 

[Singinbeauty]

No Mary, no Jesus. Jesus is both Human and Divine, without Mary he would be only Divine and that is a heresy.

Wait, wait, wait… Jesus exsisted WAY and LONG before Mary was a glimmer in King David’s family line… Are you honestly telling me that if Mary never exsisted that Jesus would not have exsisted? Is this a common consensus within the catholic community?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Wait, wait, wait… Jesus exsisted WAY and LONG before Mary was a glimmer in King David’s family line… Are you honestly telling me that if Mary never exsisted that Jesus would not have exsisted? Is this a common consensus within the catholic community?

Without Mary’s “Be it Done Unto Me.” Jesus would not become flesh.

Mary consented to God’s will and the Word became flesh. God could he wanted to incarnate himself as man without a woman, but God sent Gabriel to Mary, betroth to Joseph from the line of David.

From Mary, Jesus was born. For Jesus is “flesh of Mary’s flesh and bone of her bone.”

Mary was also foretold in Genesis 3:15

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall brush your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Many Catholic theologian belief this passage as the protoevangelicum (Proto-Gospel), because prophecy from a woman shall a come a man.

Who is the woman?

Mary.

Who is the woman’s seed?

Jesus.

Who will crush the serpent?

The seed from the woman, Jesus.

Also Issiah prophecy that a virgin conceived and bare a male child, and he shall be called Emmanuel, which means God is with us.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Without Mary’s “Be it Done Unto Me.” Jesus would not become flesh.

Mary consented to God’s will and the Word became flesh. God could he wanted to incarnate himself as man without a woman, but God sent Gabriel to Mary, betroth to Joseph from the line of David.

From Mary, Jesus was born. For Jesus is “flesh of Mary’s flesh and bone of her bone.”

Mary was also foretold in Genesis 3:15

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall brush your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Many Catholic theologian belief this passage as the protoevangelicum (Proto-Gospel), because prophecy from a woman shall a come a man.

Who is the woman?

Mary.

Who is the woman’s seed?

Jesus.

Who will crush the serpent?

The seed from the woman, Jesus.

Also Issiah prophecy that a virgin conceived and bare a male child, and he shall be called Emmanuel, which means God is with us.

I am sorry for my chuckle… I didn’t mean for it to slip out. But this seems absolutely preposterous! If Mary had said ‘No’ which God would have known before hand and therefore would not have ‘asked’, then there would have been someone else. Mary was not the only righteous virgin out there. To say that Mary had the entire world’s salvation in her hands is taking it out of God’s and saying that He isn’t powerful enough to have found a different path. My salvation didn’t lie in Mary’s hands but God’s. So if she would have refused God would have found another way.

 

[Bennie_P]

I am sorry for my chuckle… I didn’t mean for it to slip out. But this seems absolutely preposterous! If Mary had said ‘No’ which God would have known before hand and therefore would not have ‘asked’, then there would have been someone else. Mary was not the only righteous virgin out there. To say that Mary had the entire world’s salvation in her hands is taking it out of God’s and saying that He isn’t powerful enough to have found a different path. My salvation didn’t lie in Mary’s hands but God’s. So if she would have refused God would have found another way.

It has always been in God’s hands, but he still choose Mary and she said yes and she become the Mother of Jesus, thus the Mother of God. He did place in to her hands, just as He places our salvation in our hands by giving us the free will choice to say yes or no to His Gift, of course he knows from the beginning if we will accept that gift.

By having that choice we each have a part in salvation, to deny that then you claiming to believe in double predestination, then none of us had a choice. and the reason for Christ is a farce and we are going to Heaven or Hell no matter what we do or believe. Is that how you see it?

Why is it so hard to honor the mother of our Lord? Her whole being points to Christ our Lord, our salvation.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I am sorry for my chuckle… I didn’t mean for it to slip out. But this seems absolutely preposterous! If Mary had said ‘No’ which God would have known before hand and therefore would not have ‘asked’, then there would have been someone else. Mary was not the only righteous virgin out there. To say that Mary had the entire world’s salvation in her hands is taking it out of God’s and saying that He isn’t powerful enough to have found a different path. My salvation didn’t lie in Mary’s hands but God’s. So if she would have refused God would have found another way.

In Salvation history, Mary does play an vitial role for the redemption of mankind. Did she not consent to God the Father’s Will? Like I said, she did. With her “FIAT” the Word Became Flesh."

She literally had the world at her hand. It was through her womb the earth and the heavens touched. For 9 months, Mary was the living tabernacle of God. She had God in her womb, the Word made flesh.

The thought of it makes me ponder how much Mary resemble the Ark of the Old Covenant, Israel. The Ark then carried the Table of the Ten Commandments (written Word of God), Manna from Heaven, and the Aaron’s rod.

From there we have the Law, Bread from heaven and the Levite priesthood.

In the New Covenant, Jesus is the Word Himself, Bread of Life, and High Priest. In fact, Bethelem means “the House of Bread.”

You can’t have Jesus without Mary’s FIAT. Mary consented to God’s Holy Will.

In Catholic theology, Jesus and Mary was there in the Beginning and the End of the Bible, Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12:1 (Jesus of course is there at the beginning Chapters of Revelation)

Issiah prophecy that woman shall conceived a male child from the line of David.

Jesus coming was foretold by the prophets, and the prophets also fortold of a virgin. You cannot separated Jesus from his mother, Mary.

If you have kids you will noticed that the child is very close to their mothers. The woman’s skin is much softer than men. Since baby skin is very soft. The woman’s form is also design in a way to allow her to bring all things to herself. She is more flexible than a man.

There was a study done on a baby and they reacted very well when hearing the mother’s voice. With this in mind, think how infant Jesus would react when hearing the voice of Mary.

Mary is the only human being on earth who nurtured Jesus. She breast feed him, made him laugh, taught him Scripture, bath, wash him, and did everything she could like any mother.

Mary of course is not responsible for salvation since it was God whom she consented too. She made it possible for man to have salvation. Mary said, “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word” in Latin this would be written as, "ecce ancilla Domini fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum.

With those words, God became flesh and dwelt amongst us. Mary became a Living Tabernacle of God for the first 9 months on earth.

 

[dessert]

was that “with the help of the Lord I have brought forth a son” or was that the first son?

I also remember reading that statement for the first time and was so impressed, here they were kicked out and should have been cursing God as you say and there was none of that. Eve saying that is one of the highlights of scripture for me, just her undying faith and joy.

I am reading from the NAB so yes it is interesting that one verse says with the help of the Lord and i don’t have many other versions to compare to except KJV. One says she named him Seth and another says they named him seth as in a nother chapter.

It all seems to tie to the NT, and have read other posts about the forgiveness so it is just bringing newness to me in my understanding and would like to read more of Hebrew but not sure how much depth I could go into this but the concept is wonderful as I thought God hated Adam and Eve after the Garden episode and now find peace in their relationship, something other religions have been teaching for quite awhile I think but never encountered before.
I will give you my catholic narrative but this is not really in depth in the catholic bible ither and did not see it even mentioned in Scott Hahn’s book about the father Keeps his promises which is a good book as he got me to read more of the book of Genisis,but he needs to get together with the Catholic authors which he has done in his new book on why I am staying a Catholic IV, which I hope to purchase next pay day.
4;1 The Hebrew name qayin(“Cain”) and the termqanti (“I have produced”) present another play on words.

I guess what the narrative has done for me is gotten me out of the hate concept that I sometimes fall into this sin.

Here is another interesting one;
3;20: this verse seems to be out of place; it would fit better after v24. The Hebrew name hawwa(“Eve”) is related to the Hebrew name hay (“living”).

Maybe when Moses hended down the book to another and it was translated or wrote down others added or forgot to include verses but later added them as this makes me realize how human they were. The narratives could be mistaken also but it is nice for thought, and I like to compare it with the Catechism which will bring me back to the basics. dessert

 

[Bennie_P]

I am reading from the NAB so yes it is interesting that one verse says with the help of the Lord and i don’t have many other versions to compare to except KJV.

I thought I pass this on to you if you go to the link e-sword.net/index.html you can down load many free translations to do verse comparisons and get many bible commentaries (though they are older protestant commentaries, but still helpful), but it includes Strongs for KJV. For Catholics it does have DRB and the Vulgate. it doesn’t have RV, but not the RSV nor NRSV, it also has downloads of the early church fathers and is packaged in an interactive software. Check it out it could be very useful

I have 17 translations downloaded and I can do side by side verse comparisons with the free software.
They do have some more morden translations for sell, but you don’t need to buy anything.

It is a joy to dig deeper into the scriptures, hey?

 

[dessert]

I thought I pass this on to you if you go to the link e-sword.net/index.html you can down load many free translations to do verse comparisons and get many bible commentaries (though they are older protestant commentaries, but still helpful), but it includes Strongs for KJV. For Catholics it does have DRB and the Vulgate. it doesn’t have RV, but not the RSV nor NRSV, it also has downloads of the early church fathers and is packaged in an interactive software. Check it out it could be very useful

I have 17 translations downloaded and I can do side by side verse comparisons with the free software.
They do have some more morden translations for sell, but you don’t need to buy anything.

It is a joy to dig deeper into the scriptures, hey?

OK I will have my dh help me do this later as I have to go to work but it is about time I learned how to download this stuff , thanks.
it will save money buying any other books and I can always e-mail info which I do allready some. dessert

 

[ronnok20]

I pray the rosary but am not worshipping Mary but through her intersession as unto Jesus which is the way she wants us to love the Lord. Do I always start out prayer with the Hail Mary? no but I may end it with thanks to her for being the blessed Mother she is. I still have my earthly mother living and she is wonderful but am glad I have Mother of my Lord also to pray to. When my earthly mother is gone I will think of her and remember the things she did but I can pray to Mary as the wonderful spiritual model of mother hood as she is blessed of the Lord.

It is different that non-CC are sing AVE because it was so prominent in the traditional in the old days RCC and many people were named Mary or Elizabeth or both. What a specaial name to have, i mentioned in my parish that I woould like us to sing Ave and they thumbed down it and made bad remarks about the marion devotion. Ther were 4 Mary’s in our choir and I felt sad for this Even the good Catholics would not stand up for even the name Mary which one was a members wife. She was distressed and I learned a lot that day and did not mention it again. I had to leave that group, now I attend another parish and the same some for and some against.

I will continue to carry my rosary and pray as Mary is the Mother of us all.

If you want to find a common ground it should be that all of us probably have a Mary in our life and if it be an aunt or sister, we should not be maocking her name. Venerating means just to give honor to and and I’m sure you would be pleased if someone said something nice about your mother, everyone likes to hear something nice about their mother. Mary always say thanks be to God, whatever is the will of the Lord. Dessert

**
‘Be Jesus … Share Jesus’
Blessed Mother Teresa**

Why do you believe that you need an intercessor between yourself and Christ. This isn’t what the bible teaches. Jesus is our intercessor to the father. The scriptures never mention Mary being an intercessor at all. It is a dangerous and unadvisable thing to add to or to take away from scripture as so often the Catholic church seems to do. Jesus says that where two or more are gathered in his name, there he will be. It has nothing to do with Mary. Mary is not divine.

 

[Allweather]

Why do you believe that you need an intercessor between yourself and Christ. This isn’t what the bible teaches. Jesus is our intercessor to the father. The scriptures never mention Mary being an intercessor at all. It is a dangerous and unadvisable thing to add to or to take away from scripture as so often the Catholic church seems to do. Jesus says that where two or more are gathered in his name, there he will be. It has nothing to do with Mary. Mary is not divine.

Back in #17 of this very thread, on 1 June of this very year, I responded to one of your, ronnok20, strangely ignorant posts, with a couple of questions. You have not replied. Now, you pop up again after a week, and start throwing dirt at Our Lady, just like you did before.

Is that your purpose here? To be ignorant, and to continue in ignorance against all evidence to the contrary of your ignorance? And then to insult our Catholic beliefs and doctrines? And then not to respond when coherent questions are posed to you that could serve to cure at least SOME of your ignorance?

If you’re just another Kujo, you might search out some of his gems and see how they’ve been disposed of by people who know a few things. Then, come back and see what you learned.

 

[Sixtus]

Ronnock 20 posted;

Why do you believe that you need an intercessor between yourself and Christ. This isn’t what the bible teaches.

The Bible doesn’t teach ‘not to drink and drive’ but it does not excuse drink driving.

There are many things the bible does not say specifically. But it is inferred in numerous writings by a broad range of authors.

Mary points the way to her Son. So you say, why not go to Him directly. There are many times outside from prayers when I am going about my ordinary life business. But on seeing a statue of her, pause and reflect on her Son. This lead to praising Him at times when I would not have done.

What do you do? What aids do you have in your daily life which brings Him into the situation when ourside from formal prayer, you would not have thought about Him, much less so praising HIm?

I guess you will not answer my question, which will prove [at least to me] that there are none so blind as those who CHOSE not to see.

But in case you doubt, I ask you ‘why do you believe the bible, if you do not believe her who gave it to you?’

John tells us that ‘not everything Jesus taught is written down’ Jn 21:25. The CC was practicing her faith and bearing faithful witness to the teachings and traditions of the Blessed Apostles Christ’s hand-picked men long before the bible was codified. He trusted them so why not us? It is proof of the CC’s validity that she subscribes to tradition which preceded the bible otherwise, she loses all credibility as you would then argue that collusion had taken place to make sure tradition was an exact mirror image of Scripture.

 

[ronnok20]

Back in #17 of this very thread, on 1 June of this very year, I responded to one of your, ronnok20, strangely ignorant posts, with a couple of questions. You have not replied. Now, you pop up again after a week, and start throwing dirt at Our Lady, just like you did before.

Is that your purpose here? To be ignorant, and to continue in ignorance against all evidence to the contrary of your ignorance? And then to insult our Catholic beliefs and doctrines? And then not to respond when coherent questions are posed to you that could serve to cure at least SOME of your ignorance?

If you’re just another Kujo, you might search out some of his gems and see how they’ve been disposed of by people who know a few things. Then, come back and see what you learned.

It just absolutely slays me how you accuse me of throwing dirt on Mary because I do not subscribe to raising her to a divine level. I never once insulted her. Mary is a saint and foremost of all saints. That means that she is alive and well in Heaven and can pray with us and for us to God. That however does not mean that she can perform miracles or act in part with Christ to save us. You seem to be interested in only rubber stamping someone dead wrong if they question or do not believe a teaching of the RC.

 

[lak611]

I thought I pass this on to you if you go to the link e-sword.net/index.html you can down load many free translations to do verse comparisons and get many bible commentaries (though they are older protestant commentaries, but still helpful), but it includes Strongs for KJV. For Catholics it does have DRB and the Vulgate. it doesn’t have RV, but not the RSV nor NRSV, it also has downloads of the early church fathers and is packaged in an interactive software. Check it out it could be very useful

I have 17 translations downloaded and I can do side by side verse comparisons with the free software.
They do have some more morden translations for sell, but you don’t need to buy anything.

It is a joy to dig deeper into the scriptures, hey?

I have downloaded e-Sword also. I love it. In addition to the Strongs for KJV, if you download the NASB (not free, $19.95, I believe), you also get Strongs numbers for the NASB. I frequently use e-Sword when I post something in the Sacred Scripture forum. I often post several translations of the same verse.