Seeming Contradiction

[Latinitas]

Hi everyone,

By now, some of you know that I love resolving contradictions, and I have a new seeming one here that I can’t exactly figure out. Pope John Paul II said, in an audience:

Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.

• John Paul II, audience of 28 July 1998 (accent added)

I’m a little troubled by the bolder word “whether”. I am firmly aware that the Church cannot proclaim any specific person to be in hell, but it seems that the holy pontiff is saying that we don’t know if * anyone at all* is in hell. This would seem to run afoul with the 1459 proclamation of Pope Pius II in which he condemned the proposition:

That all Christians are to be saved.

• Pius II, Cum sicut, 14 November 1459 D 717b

.

Of course, Christ Himself talked about the narrow gate to heaven and the wide way to hell (Matt. 7:12-14), and many saints as well. The way I interpret John Paul’s saying is that we can’t say whether human beings (as in this one or that one) are in hell, but I’m still a little cautious to conclude that certainly from the fact that he also ways “which”.

I’m trying to give all these men the benefit of the doubt. I recognize might be John Paul might be wrong; afterall, an audience is far from infallible, although I only like to conclude that after all attempts to reconcile it have been shown at least strongly improbable.

I mean this in no way to be disrespectful to St. John Paul II, I must say. This is an honest question.

Any thoughts?

Thank you,
Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[Sonny89]

Hi everyone,

By now, some of you know that I love resolving contradictions, and I have a new seeming one here that I can’t exactly figure out. Pope John Paul II said, in an audience:

I’m a little troubled by the bolder word “whether”. I am firmly aware that the Church cannot proclaim any specific person to be in hell, but it seems that the holy pontiff is saying that we don’t know if * anyone at all* is in hell. This would seem to run afoul with the 1459 proclamation of Pope Pius II in which he condemned the proposition:

.

Of course, Christ Himself talked about the narrow gate to heaven and the wide way to hell (Matt. 7:12-14), and many saints as well. The way I interpret John Paul’s saying is that we can’t say whether human beings (as in this one or that one) are in hell, but I’m still a little cautious to conclude that certainly from the fact that he also ways “which”.

I’m trying to give all these men the benefit of the doubt. I recognize might be John Paul might be wrong; afterall, an audience is far from infallible, although I only like to conclude that after all attempts to reconcile it have been shown at least strongly improbable.

I mean this in no way to be disrespectful to St. John Paul II, I must say. This is an honest question.

Any thoughts?

Thank you,
Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

Peace and All Good to you, Latinitas!!

This is a very interesting quote & topic, thank you for sharing it!

my gut instinct would be to agree with you in thinking that he was saying that we cannot say exactly who is where so to speak.

St John Chrysostom did say that the road to Hell is paved with the skulls of Priests, and Our Lord did say that more will be demanded from those who receive more so Hell is certainly real & possible. The constant Preaching of Our Blessed Lord & so many saints leads me to believe that St John Paul would not be attempting to say anything contradictory but the wording is interesting.

However, it could be that if the audience was given in a language other than his native Polish, it might simply be a linguistic thing. I know he had a real gift for languages but it is still possible.

I’ll ponder this & see if I can come up with anything else but these are my initial thoughts. Like you, I mean no disrespect to St John Paul II in my post

God Bless

 

[jmr_1985]

This is an excellent article by Cardinal Dulles published in First Things Magazine that deals with the possibility that all could be saved and the history of this theology in detail. St. JP’s thoughts are discussed (including the quote you mentioned, I believe).

firstthings.com/article/2003/05/the-population-of-hell

That being said, I personally think pondering the population of Hell is a waste of time and above our pay grade.

JMR

 

[christofirst]

Pope John Paul’s deliberate choice of the word “whether” is clearly a nod of approval to his good and respected fellow theologian Hans Urs Von Balthasar.

 

[Sonny89]

This is an excellent article by Cardinal Dulles published in First Things Magazine that deals with the possibility that all could be saved and the history of this theology in detail. St. JP’s thoughts are discussed (including the quote you mentioned, I believe).

firstthings.com/article/2003/05/the-population-of-hell

That being said, I personally think pondering the population of Hell is a waste of time and above our pay grade.

JMR

Peace and all Good

It is indeed an excellent article, thank you very much for linking to it!

 

[Even_So]

Thanks for making me take the time to read most of the article. I got stuff ta do ya know . An honest question from an honest heart and a smart idea to question anything troubling you. I don’t hesitate to ask any in authority to explain something. If you don’t, this is how we sheep are led to slaughter. Each and every one of us, sans the Lord Jesus, has been tripped up in our words somehere or another. As i read the article you you posted which is cotradictating in itself, we should take offense to the phrase “The most sophisticated theological argument against the conviction that some human beings in fact go to …” as there is only the most sophisticated person making the argument and as believers any argument against the Word without the Word is, well, unsophisticated. The author goes on to say “that we have a right and even a duty to hope for the salvation of all, because it is not impossible that even the worst sinners may be moved by God’s grace to repent before they die. He concedes, however, that the opposite is also possible. Since we are able to resist the grace of God, none of us is safe.” We can agree, yes? Why then this next quote? “We must therefore leave the question speculatively open, thinking primarily of the danger in which we ourselves stand.” Wasn’t the question just settled?. The thought of everyone making it into heaven is pure folly, and not just dangerously ignorant of the Word. If all make it in, why did Christ have to die for us? We can just dismiss that, then. The teaching of the wide and narrow gate leaves open the possibility that half us who believe we are Christians are going to get in. Too many feel we are “good enough”, God forgive us, i have heard that so many times. Every day count yourself unworthy, then with our inner soul searching may we find the Truth. I’m gonna say one more controversial thing here from that article, then get in trouble. " Vatican II said that anyone who knows that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ and refuses to enter her cannot be saved. Remember that Vatican II stated that, not Jesus. Therefore we are allowed to question that. The woman accused of adultery who was to be stoned to death was told to “go and sin no more” by our Master and Saviour in John 8. She was never told to go and join a church. And i go to church, so please don’t stone me on that .
I love your quote about being above our pay grade. Why ponder it? We can barely control ourselves here on earth.

 

[dmar198]

Hi everyone,

By now, some of you know that I love resolving contradictions, and I have a new seeming one here that I can’t exactly figure out. Pope John Paul II said, in an audience:

I’m a little troubled by the bolder word “whether”. I am firmly aware that the Church cannot proclaim any specific person to be in hell, but it seems that the holy pontiff is saying that we don’t know if * anyone at all* is in hell. This would seem to run afoul with the 1459 proclamation of Pope Pius II in which he condemned the proposition:

.

Of course, Christ Himself talked about the narrow gate to heaven and the wide way to hell (Matt. 7:12-14), and many saints as well. The way I interpret John Paul’s saying is that we can’t say whether human beings (as in this one or that one) are in hell, but I’m still a little cautious to conclude that certainly from the fact that he also ways “which”.

I’m trying to give all these men the benefit of the doubt. I recognize might be John Paul might be wrong; afterall, an audience is far from infallible, although I only like to conclude that after all attempts to reconcile it have been shown at least strongly improbable.

I mean this in no way to be disrespectful to St. John Paul II, I must say. This is an honest question.

Any thoughts?

Thank you,
Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

Actually the quote you gave from Pope St. John Paul II was only written that way in the first edition of the speech. The pope later had it edited to resolve the ambiguity and correspond more clearly with his real thinking on the matter in light of the Church’s traditional teaching on the subject. Tim Staples explains: [The quote] was originally recorded in the L’Osservatore Romano, August 4, 1999, and it read:

Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.This sounds like it agrees with Fr. Barron and von Balthasar, doesn’t it? However, when this statement was placed in the AAS (Acta Apostolicae Sedis—all of the official statements of our Popes are placed there in their official form), “whether or” was edited out. This is most significant. The Pope’s original statement seemed to lend itself to questioning whether or not any souls are in hell. At the time, it was met with serious blow-back. But it was purposely amended, it appears, to eliminate those two problematic words. Thus, the official statement of the Pope reads:Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of which human beings are effectively involved in it. The official statement of the Pope indicates the traditional Catholic teaching that there are human beings in hell, but that we just do not know “which human beings” they are.​

I think that if you are going to quote a pope you ought to quote the final edition that he himself had promulgated, rather than an edition that he later thought was an inadequate reflection of his views. Not that you did anything intentionally wrong, of course, because you probably didn’t know about the later edition, but the later edition is the authoritative edition and I think we ought to regard the prior quotation the way the pope did: as an inadequate or too-ambiguous attempt to convey the pope’s real views on the subject.

Is that helpful?

 

[GLam8833]

MY understanding of it is that it is the KNOWLEDGE
of God in predestination of our final home is a mystery,
and some people have deathbed conversions which
are known only to God!

 

[mikekle]

What if there is a period right before we actually die, that we have a last chance to ask for forgiveness? this would only take seconds, and COULD happen to everyone right before their brain dies.

If something like this does happen to everyone, then there is probably not that many people in Hell, and the only ones would be the people truly intent on staying away from God, but IMO, once people recognize whats going on and realize this is their last chance, I tend to think most would break down and beg God for his forgiveness instead of sticking to their human ways.

There is no way we could know if this happens or not, but it could.

 

[Latinitas]

Actually the quote you gave from Pope St. John Paul II was only written that way in the first edition of the speech. The pope later had it edited to resolve the ambiguity and correspond more clearly with his real thinking on the matter in light of the Church’s traditional teaching on the subject. Tim Staples explains: [The quote] was originally recorded in the L’Osservatore Romano, August 4, 1999, and it read:

Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.This sounds like it agrees with Fr. Barron and von Balthasar, doesn’t it? However, when this statement was placed in the AAS (Acta Apostolicae Sedis—all of the official statements of our Popes are placed there in their official form), “whether or” was edited out. This is most significant. The Pope’s original statement seemed to lend itself to questioning whether or not any souls are in hell. At the time, it was met with serious blow-back. But it was purposely amended, it appears, to eliminate those two problematic words. Thus, the official statement of the Pope reads:Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of which human beings are effectively involved in it. The official statement of the Pope indicates the traditional Catholic teaching that there are human beings in hell, but that we just do not know “which human beings” they are.​

I think that if you are going to quote a pope you ought to quote the final edition that he himself had promulgated, rather than an edition that he later thought was an inadequate reflection of his views. Not that you did anything intentionally wrong, of course, because you probably didn’t know about the later edition, but the later edition is the authoritative edition and I think we ought to regard the prior quotation the way the pope did: as an inadequate or too-ambiguous attempt to convey the pope’s real views on the subject.

Is that helpful?

This is helpful. I suppose it was just a slip of the tongue.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[Lek]

The popes were both correct in their statements. We don’t know whether or not anybody is in hell - only God knows. Also, according to scripture, it appears that nobody will be in hell until after the final judgement, at which time they will be thrown into the “lake of fire”. It’s also true that all Christians will be saved, - those who are so at the time of death that is. Since a Christian would be defined as a “follower of Christ”, they have been promised salvation.