Seeming hypocritical

[ellen42]

A bit of background – my husband and I have been married for almost two years, and while we haven’t been trying to have a child, we certainly haven’t been avoiding. Needless to say, nothing has happened yet. Family history on my side suggests that I’m probably not super fertile. However, we’re both willing to accept whatever happens.

Recently, I was having a drink with a friend who does not want to have children. She is inaccurately described as being “childfree”. (She herself hates the term, because she doesn’t like to be defined by something she isn’t – and there’s a faction on the internet that uses the term in a very negative light). Due to my acceptance of not having children until now, she figured that I was a kindred spirit. However, during the evening, it came up that my husband and I had had a “Maybe?” moment a few months ago (it turned out to be gas). My friend made a comment that we had “dodged a bullet” and while I agree that we don’t have to completely rearrange our lives at the moment, it wouldn’t really have been a bad thing. The rest of the evening was spent trying to get her to understand that I wasn’t really who she imagined I was – I never changed, it was just her perception of me. At one point, she called me hypocritical for wanting to have a child and simultaneously accepting not having children.

All of this was a bit out of character for her – as I said she doesn’t like being called “childfree” because children are simply not a part of her life. It’s not a topic of conversation that really comes up with her (which is one reason I like talking with her – a lot of my other friends have become Mommy and Daddy and have forgotten how to talk about something other than children). Since then, she’s told me that she’s been mellowing with age and is thinking that having a child might not be the end of the world (still not looking to get pregnant tomorrow, or anything). However, unlike what she thought of me, she would be more hypocritical (in theory) for having been rather assertively “No children!” for years. She acknowledged that she was using me as an emotional support since she seemed so alone in not wanting children – and when I failed to provide that support, she didn’t know what to think.

I assured her that I would not think less of her, but I do know a few of our mutual friends who would not stop saying things like “I knew you would change your mind!” and “I told you that every woman really wants to be a mother!” (There’s two people in particular who spout similar phrases now, and yes, it would only get worse). Besides grinning and bearing it, is there a good way to diffuse them before they get started? She did say that after so long, she almost didn’t want to let anybody know because she didn’t want to seem like a hypocrite herself. Granted, she’s not trying to get pregnant today or anytime soon, but is willing to be more like I am and if it happens, she’s more willing to accept it.

Has anybody else been in a similar situation, and is there good advice I can give her, or will people judge you no matter what and ignoring them is the best advice?

 

[The_Blunt_Brig]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which Pope John Paul II stated as “a sure norm for teaching the faith” says contraception is a sin. You can to NFP (where you don’t do “it” when you get to the fertile point in ovulation/whatever), or can abstain from sex until she wants a child and is married.

Catechism #2284 & 2287 say “an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil” is a sin and that someone who does it is “responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged”.

If you encourage your friend to sin by using contraception then you will be sinning.

Just say something like this is just how it is. I’m sorry that we can’t agree but it would hurt my conscience to do that.

 

[ellen42]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which Pope John Paul II stated as “a sure norm for teaching the faith” says contraception is a sin. You can to NFP (where you don’t do “it” when you get to the fertile point in ovulation/whatever), or can abstain from sex until she wants a child and is married.

Catechism #2284 & 2287 say “an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil” is a sin and that someone who does it is “responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged”.

If you encourage your friend to sin by using contraception then you will be sinning.

Just say something like this is just how it is. I’m sorry that we can’t agree but it would hurt my conscience to do that.

Wow… okay… um… thanks for the reply, but it doesn’t really address anything I said.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I think it may be worth mentioning that there is nothing hypocritical about changing your mind. At all. It would be hypocritical to profess that having children was evil (which is distinct from not personally want children at a given time) while simultaneously trying to have children(which is distinct from maybe wanting children some day). This does not appear to be the case

For a change in what you want, changing your mind is not even admitting that you were wrong in the past. Used to not want children. Now might want children. No contradiction because the past is not the present. It is absolutely true that in the past she didn’t want children. That may no longer be true. Not a problem.

As for the annoying I told you so’s - I’m not sure how anyone should reply to such things, but I think that I personally would actually probably fall back on scathing sarcasm.

Good luck to your friend

 

[Litcrit]

I’m probably not going to address the issue either, but I have to try to get my thoughts on the issue out there:

There’s something seriously wrong about the world we live in if we have to divide ourselves ideologically between “planning and trying to have babies” and “planning never to have babies and contracepting.” I mean, you somehow managed to sound hypocritical to your friend just by having sex with your husband without any … “agenda.” Without actively and desperately “trying” or determinedly avoiding forever.

Really, what happened to just living one’s life and having sex with one’s spouse and possibly welcoming and nurturing babies? Perhaps it would be helpful to your friend if she could just muster sufficient self-confidence NOT to be defined by any ideology she may have professed in the past, or any group she may have seen herself as part of (if not the “childfree,” then whoever/whatever) It seems like she also somehow defined herself as the “opposite” of those other women you know whose “agenda” seems to be “all women have to be mothers or die trying” and simply possibly welcoming a child may look like self-treason to her.

 

[SMHW]

I agree with Iron Donkey.

I also noted that your friend did not like being identified as “childfree”. Does that mean that she has not gone out of her way to say she doesn’t want children but rather has emphasized what she DOES want to do (which perhaps so far would have been difficult with children)?

Well, maybe now she DOES want children.

(I don’t think you actually said whether or not this friend is married.)

 

[ellen42]

There’s something seriously wrong about the world we live in if we have to divide ourselves ideologically between “planning and trying to have babies” and “planning never to have babies and contracepting.” I mean, you somehow managed to sound hypocritical to your friend just by having sex with your husband without any … “agenda.” Without actively and desperately “trying” or determinedly avoiding forever.

Really, what happened to just living one’s life and having sex with one’s spouse and possibly welcoming and nurturing babies? Perhaps it would be helpful to your friend if she could just muster sufficient self-confidence NOT to be defined by any ideology she may have professed in the past, or any group she may have seen herself as part of (if not the “childfree,” then whoever/whatever) It seems like she also somehow defined herself as the “opposite” of those other women you know whose “agenda” seems to be “all women have to be mothers or die trying” and simply possibly welcoming a child may look like self-treason to her.

I guess that’s a significant factor here too. Like her, I try not to let myself be defined by my offspring (or current lack thereof) – which means that it’s just not a common topic of conversation, which allowed her to “fill in the blanks” herself.

In the later conversation, it did come up that she had been less than enthusiastic about the idea when she was younger (high school and before), but when faced with said mutual friends “excitement” about the idea (to say the lease), it pushed her off the fence to oppose them. They couldn’t tell her what to do, dangnabbit! Unfortunately, that only made them try harder and now we are where we are…

It would be nice if we could all just hit the reset button on occasion and “change our minds” without anybody noticing that we did.

 

[ellen42]

I agree with Iron Donkey.

I also noted that your friend did not like being identified as “childfree”. Does that mean that she has not gone out of her way to say she doesn’t want children but rather has emphasized what she DOES want to do (which perhaps so far would have been difficult with children)?

Well, maybe now she DOES want children.

(I don’t think you actually said whether or not this friend is married.)

In the past, but not very recently, she did express a desire to never have children. More recently, she’s been quiet on the subject – when people start talking of children, she tends to bow out of the conversation. Only during the most recent conversation did she say that “it might not be the end of the world” – I’m not reading that to mean “I want children now”, and it would be inappropriate to do so. It would also be inappropriate to speculate any further on her intentions.

And you are correct, I did not say if she was married.

 

[PatriceA]

I guess that’s a significant factor here too. Like her, I try not to let myself be defined by my offspring (or current lack thereof) – which means that it’s just not a common topic of conversation, which allowed her to “fill in the blanks” herself.

In the later conversation, it did come up that she had been less than enthusiastic about the idea when she was younger (high school and before), but when faced with said mutual friends “excitement” about the idea (to say the lease), it pushed her off the fence to oppose them. They couldn’t tell her what to do, dangnabbit! Unfortunately, that only made them try harder and now we are where we are…

It would be nice if we could all just hit the reset button on occasion and “change our minds” without anybody noticing that we did.

Well, I got to be honest, if I was one of her friends that is now a mommy and she was VERY outspoken about not wanting kids when I was pregnant, it would be very hard for me NOT to say “I told you so”. It really depends upon what she has said in the past around her friends that now have children of their own how much I would be willing to give her a pass when and if she does have children. There’s a part of me that would want to hold her feet to the fire so to speak.

I think she’s going to have to honestly take a good hard look how she may have treated her friends when they were pregnant, and how she’s treated them now they have children. It can be a tough pill to swallow but perhaps she needs to hear she was pretty hard headed in the past about this topic.

Maybe I’m not quite understanding how you described the recent conversation you had with her, but even her reaction to you accepting whatever happens right now with getting pregnant was still defensive on her part. She sounds like she’s still struggling with her thoughts on the subject, she sounds stubborn and harsh.

 

[Litcrit]

I guess that’s a significant factor here too. Like her, I try not to let myself be defined by my offspring (or current lack thereof) – which means that it’s just not a common topic of conversation, which allowed her to “fill in the blanks” herself.

In the later conversation, it did come up that she had been less than enthusiastic about the idea when she was younger (high school and before), but when faced with said mutual friends “excitement” about the idea (to say the lease), it pushed her off the fence to oppose them. They couldn’t tell her what to do, dangnabbit! Unfortunately, that only made them try harder and now we are where we are…

It would be nice if we could all just hit the reset button on occasion and “change our minds” without anybody noticing that we did.

Are you all very young? I find that as we grow older, most people do realize that being ourselves involves changing our minds. About our ideologies, our tastes, our plans, especially if these were extreme or exclusive.

When I was a teen, I didn’t ever want to get married and get a job and have kids. I wanted to read and write poetry all the time and die alone in poverty, like all poets. Or something.

 

[PetiteFoi]

Hm, I think she’s on the fence and carrying you along with her.
She wants you to be her childfree-supporter; but at the same time not judge her if she did decide to get pregnant.

Part of her was offended that you conceded that having kids wouldn’t be a big deal (and even a good thing), since, in her mind, you were a childfree’er.
The other part of her wants you to support (and not rub her nose) in the fact that she might be considering having children after-all.

(If I understood the conversation correctly anyway )

You were kinda put in a no-win situation here - no matter what you said, you’d end up being ‘offensive’ somehow. Which kinda stinks for you!
But all that aside - just continue to love her!
If she wants to have kids, support her - if she doesn’t, love her! Just explain that you expect the same attitude from her. That regardless of whether or not you have kids, you expect her to support and love you.

Best of luck,
~ PetiteFoi

 

[Anglewannabe]

. Like her, I try not to let myself be defined by my offspring (or current lack thereof) – which means that it’s just not a common topic of conversation, which allowed her to “fill in the blanks” herself.

.

It has been my experience when someone ‘fills in the blanks’ for someone else’s life, that person is NOT emotionally healthy. It sounds to me like she is jealous of moms and wants kids but is too ashamed to admit to it and since you are her only friends without children, she is trying to keep you where it fits her agenda (misery likes company).

To be honest, this whole topic sounds kind of immature to me. Not the topic per say but the way you friend is handling it.

The best way to combat the ‘I told you so’, with honesty ‘I don’t want to here it’. Now if it is a case like PatriceA says she was cruel to others while they were pregnant, then these woman can assert themselves and say ‘Well, when I was pregnant you said XYZ’ or they can stop.

Angie

 

[Anglewannabe]

Well, I got to be honest, if I was one of her friends that is now a mommy and she was VERY outspoken about not wanting kids when I was pregnant, it would be very hard for me NOT to say “I told you so”. .

Although I never had kids, I hear you you 100%. The only question I have is ‘If someone was very outspoken while you were pregnant, wouldn’t that have ruined the friendship?’

Angie

 

[ellzeena]

The term “child free” originated many years ago (I’d say, at least 27 years). It is a sexist term intended to tell “interested” men that a woman has “no baggage”. A woman who defines herself in this way is caught in a conundrum. She may be denying the desire to have a child due to her own childhood trauma; she may be rationalizing it in order to further her “career”; she may truly have decided that she is not mother material.

This term has nothing to do with you. You are not “child free”. You are waiting upon God’s decision/action. By telling yourself that you may be “less than fertile” you might actually be impeding the process of conception. (Yes, the brain is powerful.) Many people who actively try to conceive cannot and then, once they have given up, they do.

It is absolutely no one’s business why you do not have children. You owe no one any explanation, and that includes close family. A woman who develops a friendship with you in order to fortify and justify her own decision to remain childless is not a “friend”. We teach people how to treat us. A true friend (quite rare, actually) is happy for you when you are happy and cries with you when you are sad. She gives 50% to the relationship. I understand how difficult it is to be among women your age who have children and talk of nothing else. It’s normal for them to do this. When a baby enters your life, as the commercial says, “It changes everything”. For those who want children and are not successful (so far) in conceiving (or, worse, have lost a child), such social gatherings are quite difficult. Perhaps you should pray for extraordinary grace in order to learn from these experiences, rather than have them hurt you. You might also talk to the Lord about your true desires for a child to raise. Perhaps you really desire a pregnancy and are just sublimating or suppressing this desire - that would be normal, actually. Speak to Him from your heart. He will hear you. And then accept the answer, whatever it may be. Give it time, lots of time. Anything can happen, God can do all things.

 

[PatriceA]

Although I never had kids, I hear you you 100%. The only question I have is ‘If someone was very outspoken while you were pregnant, wouldn’t that have ruined the friendship?’

Angie

Not necessarily, it would really depend on the circumstances, if she said something rude and obnoxious to only one individual, or if she said it collectively when everyone was together, the history of the friendships, etc., etc. I’ve had outspoken friendships before when we’ve disagreed on one or two issues but the rest of the friendship was pretty good for the most part. I think I’m one of those people that always leaves the window open and doesn’t permanently close a door on a friendship, as long as the other person can grow and be honest with me about things that have happened between the two of us. I might say one or two “I told you so”, but I wouldn’t constantly bring the issue up after that.

 

[anp1215]

I’m probably not going to address the issue either, but I have to try to get my thoughts on the issue out there:

There’s something seriously wrong about the world we live in if we have to divide ourselves ideologically between “planning and trying to have babies” and “planning never to have babies and contracepting.” I mean, you somehow managed to sound hypocritical to your friend just by having sex with your husband without any … “agenda.” Without actively and desperately “trying” or determinedly avoiding forever.

Really, what happened to just living one’s life and having sex with one’s spouse and possibly welcoming and nurturing babies? Perhaps it would be helpful to your friend if she could just muster sufficient self-confidence NOT to be defined by any ideology she may have professed in the past, or any group she may have seen herself as part of (if not the “childfree,” then whoever/whatever) It seems like she also somehow defined herself as the “opposite” of those other women you know whose “agenda” seems to be “all women have to be mothers or die trying” and simply possibly welcoming a child may look like self-treason to her.

It’s bizarre. I get the weirdest looks when I tell people we aren’t trying but not not trying. They look at me like they don’t get it and seem very confused. Recently I was talking with a friend about having kids and I asked her if she wanted to have more kids. She said, “well yeah, I’m not on birth control.” (non-Catholic). That’s how it is now. You’re either actively trying to conceive or contracepting to avoid. Other than that, you’re seen as very strange.

 

[DarkLight]

It’s bizarre. I get the weirdest looks when I tell people we aren’t trying but not not trying. They look at me like they don’t get it and seem very confused. Recently I was talking with a friend about having kids and I asked her if she wanted to have more kids. She said, “well yeah, I’m not on birth control.” (non-Catholic). That’s how it is now. You’re either actively trying to conceive or contracepting to avoid. Other than that, you’re seen as very strange.

I’ve also experienced an increasing assumption that all women must either desire to have children or be staying on birth control, regardless of their state in life. From my protestant family and friends it’s the assumption that marriage and children are inevitable; from the secular ones it’s the decoupling of marriage and having kids.

 

[HouseArrest]

A bit of background – my husband and I have been married for almost two years, and while we haven’t been trying to have a child, we certainly haven’t been avoiding. Needless to say, nothing has happened yet. Family history on my side suggests that I’m probably not super fertile. However, we’re both willing to accept whatever happens.

Recently, I was having a drink with a friend who does not want to have children. She is inaccurately described as being “childfree”. (She herself hates the term, because she doesn’t like to be defined by something she isn’t – and there’s a faction on the internet that uses the term in a very negative light). Due to my acceptance of not having children until now, she figured that I was a kindred spirit. However, during the evening, it came up that my husband and I had had a “Maybe?” moment a few months ago (it turned out to be gas). My friend made a comment that we had “dodged a bullet” and while I agree that we don’t have to completely rearrange our lives at the moment, it wouldn’t really have been a bad thing. The rest of the evening was spent trying to get her to understand that I wasn’t really who she imagined I was – I never changed, it was just her perception of me. At one point, she called me hypocritical for wanting to have a child and simultaneously accepting not having children.

All of this was a bit out of character for her – as I said she doesn’t like being called “childfree” because children are simply not a part of her life. It’s not a topic of conversation that really comes up with her (which is one reason I like talking with her – a lot of my other friends have become Mommy and Daddy and have forgotten how to talk about something other than children). Since then, she’s told me that she’s been mellowing with age and is thinking that having a child might not be the end of the world (still not looking to get pregnant tomorrow, or anything). However, unlike what she thought of me, she would be more hypocritical (in theory) for having been rather assertively “No children!” for years. She acknowledged that she was using me as an emotional support since she seemed so alone in not wanting children – and when I failed to provide that support, she didn’t know what to think.

I assured her that I would not think less of her, but I do know a few of our mutual friends who would not stop saying things like “I knew you would change your mind!” and “I told you that every woman really wants to be a mother!” (There’s two people in particular who spout similar phrases now, and yes, it would only get worse). Besides grinning and bearing it, is there a good way to diffuse them before they get started? She did say that after so long, she almost didn’t want to let anybody know because she didn’t want to seem like a hypocrite herself. Granted, she’s not trying to get pregnant today or anytime soon, but is willing to be more like I am and if it happens, she’s more willing to accept it.

Has anybody else been in a similar situation, and is there good advice I can give her, or will people judge you no matter what and ignoring them is the best advice?

She seems rather self absorbed and insensitive.

She doesn’t have or want children, and is overly concerned about what title fits her. Who cares?

You didn’t have any children. She without thinking about you at all put you in her “corner”. Did she ever think for a minute you might actually want children and not be able to have any? If this didn’t dawn on her at first, it should have after you stated that you had a “maybe” moment, and then instead of, again, thinking you might want a child, was angry with you for “leaving her”. Then when you tried to explain that she had it wrong to begin with, she continued to think of herself and called you a hypocrite.

Now she is still talking ad nauseum about her “maybe accepting a child”, again, not considering you at all.

She’s also overly concerned as to what people might say if she becomes pregnant. Maybe they’ll say the same things to her that she said to you.