Seems that Jesus commited heresy!?

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Matthew 22: 25;

31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32’I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

But in Exudos chapter 3;

5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, **“I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” **At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

God was just telling Moses who he was, and that his ancesters use to worship him. But Jesus is using the scripture as a way to prove that we are alive with God even after death? Catholics also use this as a way to prove that the saints are not dead and that we CAN pray to them!?

…confused…?🤷 I am.😦
 
Zundrah said:
Matthew 22: 25;

31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32’I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

But in Exudos chapter 3;

5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, **“I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” **At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

God was just telling Moses who he was, and that his ancesters use to worship him. But Jesus is using the scripture as a way to prove that we are alive with God even after death? Catholics also use this as a way to prove that the saints are not dead and that we CAN pray to them!?

…confused…?🤷 I am.😦
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What’s confusing about it? God said in the OT ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery’ fullstop. Jesus in the NT explained, without at all disagreeing with the commandment, that the definition of adultery is broad and actually includes the likes of looking lustfully at someone, or remarriage after legal divorce. Your quotes are an example of doing similar with another verse.

That Jesus did this is not contradiction or heresy, it’s just extra information and clarification. Or did you think the OT was meant to be perfect and complete revelation? What need for Jesus at all if the OT was perfect and complete in itself?

See, it would be heresy if the OT had said ‘Abraham, Isaac and Moses are dead’ and Jesus had said ‘that’s wrong, they’re not’. But the OT doesn’t say that at all. What the OT says can stand perfectly well together with what the NT says.

It would be heresy if the OT had said ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery, but adultery DOESN’T include looking lustfully at someone’ and then Jesus had said ‘actually, no that’s wrong’. Again, it didn’t happen that way, and again the OT can stand perfectly well together with the NT.
 
LilyM said:
What’s confusing about it? God said in the OT ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery’ fullstop. Jesus in the NT explained, without at all disagreeing with the commandment, that the definition of adultery is broad and actually includes the likes of looking lustfully at someone, or remarriage after legal divorce. Your quotes are an example of doing similar with another verse.

That Jesus did this is not contradiction or heresy, it’s just extra information and clarification. Or did you think the OT was meant to be perfect and complete revelation? What need for Jesus at all if the OT was perfect and complete in itself?
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But he made it out to mean something which it did not mean!
 
Zundrah said:
But he made it out to mean something which it did not mean!
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Since when? ‘I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’ doesn’t mean ‘they’re dead’, does it? He is your God as well, is He not, and you’re not dead, are you? The OT is silent on the issue.

It’s perfectly logical to do as Jesus did, put two bits of knowledge together and draw new conclusions from doing so. It’s exactly what Christians have done by putting the verses ‘thou shalt not commit adultery’ and ‘whoever divorces and marries another commits adultery’ together and concluding ‘thou shalt not divorce and marry another’!
 
LilyM said:
**Since when? ‘I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’ doesn’t mean ‘they’re dead’, does it? He is your God as well, is He not, and you’re not dead, are you? The OT is silent on the issue. **
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But that is not what it meant! God was saying to Moses, I am your God, your ancesters knew and worshiped me!
 
Zundrah said:
But that is not what it meant! God was saying to Moses, I am your God, your ancesters knew and worshiped me!
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So? Jesus is God, He knows the Father better than any of the writers of scripture ever did. He’s adding new information to the old is all.

He’s God, He can tell us new things about Himself without it being heresy, you know. 🤷
 
LilyM said:
So? Jesus is God, He knows the Father better than any of the writers of scripture ever did. He’s adding new information to the old is all.

He’s God, He can tell us new things about Himself without it being heresy, you know. 🤷
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Heresy = misinterpretating scripture

Jesus misinterpretated scripture!
 
Zundrah said:
Heresy = misinterpretating scripture

Jesus misinterpretated scripture!
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Not so. Not every verse of Scripture has a one-and-only-one meaning such that every other interpretation is wrong or heretical.

And not even every wrong interpretation is heresy. It’s only heresy if there’s authority to suggest that the verse has ONLY the one meaning and you, knowing that, take it to mean something else instead.

Like the Church teaches that ‘this is my body’ means the Real Presence and can ONLY possibly mean the Real Presence, then it’s heresy to think anything else. But if it didn’t stipulate that there was only one possible meaning that could be attached, then it certainly wouldn’t be heretical to think otherwise.

Some verses have more than one meaning, for example the woman of Revelation can be interpreted to be BOTH Mary AND Israel. Neither interpretation is wrong or heretical.

Take the verse ‘thou shalt not commit adultery’ as another example. Clearly the Jews didn’t take it to mean that looking lustfully at someone was wrong, however Jesus corrected and added to their understanding of it. Doesn’t mean He was heretical - it’s nonsense to suggest that God can commit heresy!
 
Zundrah said:
Heresy = misinterpretating scripture

Jesus misinterpretated scripture!
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Ignore the fact that that isn’t the definition of heresy. Instead, look at this question:

Two people offer an interpretation of Scripture: you and Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Which one you is wrong?

– Mark L. Chance.
 
LilyM said:
Not so. Not every verse of Scripture has a one-and-only-one meaning such that every other interpretation is wrong or heretical.

And not even every wrong interpretation is heresy. It’s only heresy if there’s authority to suggest that the verse has ONLY the one meaning and you, knowing that, take it to mean something else instead.

Like the Church teaches that ‘this is my body’ means the Real Presence and can ONLY possibly mean the Real Presence, then it’s heresy to think anything else. But if it didn’t stipulate that there was only one possible meaning that could be attached, then it certainly wouldn’t be heretical to think otherwise.

Some verses have more than one meaning, for example the woman of Revelation can be interpreted to be BOTH Mary AND Israel. Neither interpretation is wrong or heretical.

Take the verse ‘thou shalt not commit adultery’ as another example. Clearly the Jews didn’t take it to mean that looking lustfully at someone was wrong, however Jesus corrected and added to their understanding of it. Doesn’t mean He was heretical - it’s nonsense to suggest that God can commit heresy!
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It still doesn’t explain it though.
mlchance said:
Ignore the fact that that isn’t the definition of heresy. Instead, look at this question:

Two people offer an interpretation of Scripture: you and Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Which one you is wrong?

– Mark L. Chance.
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Well, Jesus is God, but it still surprised me when I came across this problem…
 
Zundrah said:
Well, Jesus is God, but it still surprised me when I came across this problem…
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Yes, Jesus is God; therefore, he is right. And is it really a new concept that Jesus is surprising? One of the most common reactions he elicited was surprise.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
mlchance said:
Yes, Jesus is God; therefore, he is right. And is it really a new concept that Jesus is surprising? One of the most common reactions he elicited was surprise.

– Mark L. Chance.
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Yes, just as when he said that we must eat his flesh, and everyone ran away. 😃
 
Zundrah said:
Matthew 22: 25;

31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32’I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

But in Exudos chapter 3;

5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, **“I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” **At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

God was just telling Moses who he was, and that his ancesters use to worship him. But Jesus is using the scripture as a way to prove that we are alive with God even after death? Catholics also use this as a way to prove that the saints are not dead and that we CAN pray to them!?

…confused…?🤷 I am.😦
Click to expand...
History is your friend. In Jesus’ time, mostly everyone was pro-family, and most especially Israel. This is why many people took offense at His teachings about hating your family, about purity, about gentiles, etc. In Jesus’ time, Israel regarded geology as one of the most important parts of Judaism, as the key to holding itself in tact; this is why Matthew gives Jesus’ geology at the beginning of his gospel. ‘God of Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob’ was how Jews spoke of God in Jesus’ time; Jesus was a Jew, after all. He never broke any laws, just traditions of men.
 
There is no contradiction between the OT and what Jesus taught. There is simply clarification. This what any good preacher would do. Otherwise there would be no homily.

“I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” The “I am” places God in the present, not merely the past.

What many people struggle with is the word prayer. It is an issue covered on other forums. While prayer may be defined as “lifting our hearts and minds to God,” it also has a more basic meaning. To pray to somebody is to talk to somebody. The saints are alive. Therefore, we can talk to them and ask for their intercessory prayer. In other words, the saints continue to lift their hearts and minds to God, interceding on our behalf and worshiping God.
We do not worship the saints when we pray to them. We and they worship God alone.“Where two or more are gathered, I am in your midst.”

Moses hid from God. Those to whom Jesus was speaking saw Him as the man that He was. Since Jesus is also God, will He blaspheme or commit heresy against Himself?
 
Jesus misinterpreted Himself?

“This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” (Exodus 3:14)

“Before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58)
 
Eucharisted said:
History is your friend. In Jesus’ time, mostly everyone was pro-family, and most especially Israel. This is why many people took offense at His teachings about hating your family, about purity, about gentiles, etc. In Jesus’ time, Israel regarded geology as one of the most important parts of Judaism, as the key to holding itself in tact; this is why Matthew gives Jesus’ geology at the beginning of his gospel. ‘God of Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob’ was how Jews spoke of God in Jesus’ time; Jesus was a Jew, after all. He never broke any laws, just traditions of men.
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Hmm, so what he said WAS true, but it wasn’t what the scripture meant though? 🤷
mlchance said:
👍

– Mark L. Chance.
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:cool:
 
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