self defense

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lucky4075

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Hey all,

Im just a bit confused, where does the Church’s position on self defense/defense of others come from? What’s the Biblical basis for it? Jesus appears to teach pacifism/non violence, but i feel like that isnt entirely true since He and the Father are in agreement, and God hardly seems pacifist.

I researched “Is Jesus a pacifist?” on here and this link came up. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21882

The link mentioned luke 22 36 where Jesus tells the apostles to buy swords, but most Catholic interpretations say that this wasnt a literal command and that the apostles missed the point. So how can this verse be used to show Jesus’ approval of armed defense?

One last question- why didnt the apostles defend themselves? All except John were martyred for preaching etc.

thanks for any replies, Im just a bit on the scrupulous side.🙂
 
If you’re attacked, then it is okay to fight back… but only using the minimal amount of force.
(If someone punches you, then fight back until the situation if defused. Don’t chase him down while he’s running away essentially.)

In terms of defense of another, it is crucial to remember to use minimal force and to only step in if absolutely necessary. If you forget this rule, then it becomes a 2 on 1 situation, and the original attacker would then become the victim.

The only times I would ever step in for the sake of another’s defense would be if it was a woman being sexually assaulted, the attacker is armed while the victim is not, or the victim is on the ground, clearly unable to fight back, while the attacker continues to beat him up.

It’s a little bit confusing, I know.
However, if/when the time comes to defend yourself or another, you will know what is right and what is wrong.

God Bless 🙂
 
Your question is a good one and a highly complicated one with a number of nuances to be explored. I too have considered this matter and have not explored all of the permutations.

That said, I agree that Jesus teaches non-violence in the NT. Our outlook needs to be peaceful in nature. We have great evidence of this in the sermon on the mount, and in the acceptance of death rather than violence by the Apostles and many early Church martyrs.

So where does the doctrine of “Self Defense” come from? In my humble opinion it comes from the Church’s recognition that total Pacifism is not workable in the wider world and for all who are trying to follow Christ. Because of this, The Holy Spirit, through the Church, gives instructions on the conditions under which “self defense”, while not “ideal”, is justifiable.

It’s like in the NT where Jesus is talking about divorce in Mt 19:7-8
7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” 8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
Likewise in the OT, the Jews did not have a King until they clamored for one and finally God relented and allowed them to “be like other peoples” and have a king.
In both of these cases there is an Ideal that God desires, and then there is an allowance made for our weakness.

The same thing is true for “self defense”. Ideally we should be non-violent, loving and peaceful, but there are cases and “what if’s” that have caused the God to give us some “leeway” and this is expressed by the teachings on the matter through the Church.

Peace
James
 
Make sure to distinguish between counsel (etc) and commandment.

Also between what one can do well to permit in regards to self (in the turning the other cheek) and the responsibility one has for protecting others (and say a husband with a family for protecting himself via a moral means against grave harm etc…)
 
I think that this is a very good question, one that I have asked myself. As disciples of Christ, we all know some of his words like: “Love your enemies”, "those that seek to save their life will lose it, and we are surely aware that Christ did not run for the hills to save his own life. There is a lot to think about reguarding this question.

As for me, I have thought about it, and no matter what the Church’s position on the matter is, it is irrelevant. I would not allow someone to attack me, my family, or other innocent persons without fighting back. On occasions in my life I had to defend myself with my fists, and if I was armed and the situation warrented it, I would respond in a likewise effective manner. I did/do not take these decisions lightly, as I know one day I will have to stand before my maker and answer for all my worldly actions.
 
Something just keeps bugging me about this, Ive read the CCC section regarding this topic. Maybe its because Im a student and im just used to being able to find the answer somewhat easily after some reading and research. If we have the right to self defense and can serve in militaries/police etc why doesnt it just say that in the Bible somewhere?
 
lucky4075 said:
Something just keeps bugging me about this, Ive read the CCC section regarding this topic. Maybe its because Im a student and im just used to being able to find the answer somewhat easily after some reading and research. If we have the right to self defense and can serve in militaries/police etc why doesnt it just say that in the Bible somewhere?
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I imagine it says it in various places…(like the various centurians…) but you need to note that the Bible is not intended as an exhaustive text nor a dictionary of moral theology (as wonderful as it is!!! The Scriptures are very very very important…an understatement).

Jesus founded a Church and gave that Church the authority to teach etc…
 
I’m sorry I keep bringing this up but I’m very detail minded. In the just war doctrine it has Jesus’ quote from Luke 22 ‘buy a sword’. And it says that this verse is used here to show Jesus approves of armed defense, but Catholic scripture studies say that this command wasn’t literal an that the apostles missed the point, that the swords weren’t literal ones and that Jess says enough out of exasperation. I’m still confused:confused:
 
lucky4075 said:
I’m sorry I keep bringing this up but I’m very detail minded. In the just war doctrine it has Jesus’ quote from Luke 22 ‘buy a sword’. And it says that this verse is used here to show Jesus approves of armed defense, but Catholic scripture studies say that this command wasn’t literal an that the apostles missed the point, that the swords weren’t literal ones and that Jess says enough out of exasperation. I’m still confused:confused:
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Exegetes can vary in their opinion etc

The thing does not in any way stand and fall on that verse.
 
So how do we interpret other Christians that are pacifists and insist that Jesus forbids all violence? When I read stuff like that they make me feel bad just for wanting to join the coast guard. I almost feel like they are right an that when I am judged I will be sent to hell If I had to kill someone- alot of articles phrase it like this- when you face Jesus he’ll ask how killing someone was loving your enemy. I apologize, I feel like I’m obessing/ venting about this.
 
lucky4075 said:
Something just keeps bugging me about this, Ive read the CCC section regarding this topic. Maybe its because Im a student and im just used to being able to find the answer somewhat easily after some reading and research. If we have the right to self defense and can serve in militaries/police etc why doesnt it just say that in the Bible somewhere?
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It does, though not explicitly; Jesus tells the Roman soldier to be content with his pay, would he have told a drug dealer to be content with his pay? Probably not, we must reason it out.
*
Luke 3:14 - And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse any one wrongfully; and be content with your wages.
*

The Bible is not an instructional manual, God has given us the power to reason. What would happen if there was no police force to enforce the law? The Bible doesn’t answer every single question, though a lot of answers could be found implicitly, and when there is no answer we can still form a conclusion around the principles.
 
lucky4075 said:
So how do we interpret other Christians that are pacifists and insist that Jesus forbids all violence? When I read stuff like that they make me feel bad just for wanting to join the coast guard. I almost feel like they are right an that when I am judged I will be sent to hell If I had to kill someone- alot of articles phrase it like this- when you face Jesus he’ll ask how killing someone was loving your enemy. I apologize, I feel like I’m obessing/ venting about this.
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That is their understanding. We love them as brothers but recognize that they are incorrect in certain things…

We have the benefit of the Church (in particular the Magisterium) who as authority to teach given by Jesus …in understanding and living what Jesus has taught.

Turn the other cheek? yes! Lots of opportunities in life to live this counsel.

Can we defend ourselves justly? Yes

Can it be even an obligation to even defend ourselves at times or others we are responsible for? yes
 
Lucky, You raise a lot of good points and are receiving a lot of good answers.
As BookCat said, the Bible is not intended to be the “go to text” for every answer. The Bible points to the Church (The Pillar and foundation of Truth) to which God gave Authority to “Bind and Loose”, for that role. That does not mean we should ignore the bible and go running off willy-nilly but it does demonstrate that it is The Church that we should listen to.

As to Christians who hold different views on the matter (Catholics have a “just war” policy, while Quakers reject violence completely), I personally try to respect both opinions. Both viewpoints have been arrived at after diligent and prayerful consideration.

BUT the thing to remember is that, - should you ever have to kill someone in self defense - and when you stand before the Lord and He asks you about it, - if your reply is that it was completely within the bounds of the Spirit Guided teachings of His Holy Church, how can He condemn you?

Peace
James
 
lucky4075 said:
So how do we interpret other Christians that are pacifists and insist that Jesus forbids all violence? When I read stuff like that they make me feel bad just for wanting to join the coast guard. I almost feel like they are right an that when I am judged I will be sent to hell If I had to kill someone- alot of articles phrase it like this- when you face Jesus he’ll ask how killing someone was loving your enemy. I apologize, I feel like I’m obessing/ venting about this.
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About your wanting to join the Coast Guard, or any other armed service for that matter, there is nothing to feel bad about. The military is an honorable profession and nations need them in this dangerours world.We have got to remember that God uses the good people of this earth to fight the forces of evil.

The best example I can think of is WW2, where the evil regimes of the Nazis and Japanese had to be defeated. God accomplished this by using the good people of this world, who probably would under normal circumstances have never joined the military, to defeat this extreme evil. We do not know all of God’s ways, but be sure that He is ultimitely in control of everything.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. Il have to just keep praying an thinking about it, and hopefully I can discern if uscg is for me.
 
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