Self-esteem vs high esteem

[Robert_Sock]

A healthy self-love can be very Christian. We are called to love all men, and that includes ourselves.

It is true that healthy self-esteem rises to the level of sin when it is excessive: then it becomes pride. But it is just as much a sin when it is deficient: for to hate yourself is to hate God’s work, the work He is sustaining in every single moment. It is an act of rank ingratitude.

Think of in terms of Aristotle’s golden mean. As usual, the virtue is situated somewhere between two vices, although generally more to one side. I think in the case of self-esteem it is healthier to be somewhat deficient than somewhat excessive.

Why should we have self-esteem at all? Note that having no self esteem is very much different than having low self esteem. All you need is LOVE, which is gotten through high esteem.

 

[RosaryFan]

What would you find to be more valuable: A person having self worth or a person who truly values people, life, and religion? This is where I’m at odds with the field of psychology. You tend to value self esteem, an introversion, and I value high esteem. I can see where self-esteem borders on pride and where the field of psychology might eventually see things my way. A person with high esteem is not a troubled person in any sense of the word. Contrary, the person with high esteem is well adjusted and fits into the world well. Too much can go wrong with self esteem. Let something bad happen to self-esteem and look out, the individual crashes emotionally. Self-esteem leads to pride and other sins; esteem leads to LOVE and other virtues.

What is wrong with finding value and worth in ourselves? God made us each, individually, and as such, we are called to value what God has created, especially yourSELF.

And who says that having self-esteem means you cannot also value others, life, religion, etc.? Just because you have SELF-esteem, doesn’t mean that’s all the esteem you can have. There’s no rule that says “self or nothing”.

And all your talk about “introversion” and “extroversion” does not make any sense to me. Like I said, you’re taking a simple, common-sense idea and convaluting it and twisting it and making it into something as complex as buliding the atom bomb. What do you learn in psychology class, anyway? I guess they don’t teach you the “Kiss” rule - “Keep it Simple, Sister”.

Now, since I am sensing a troll, I will not be contributing to this thread any longer.

 

[fhansen]

I’m a psychologist and a Catholic and I tend to think that self-esteem is evil. Think about it: self-esteem is introverted and caters to the self. Contrast that with simple esteem that is directed outward instead if inward; for example, esteem towards life, esteem towards friends, and esteem toward religion. This is what it means to be a true extrovert.

Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem.

The media, of course, is extreme with self-esteem, and psychologists will tell you that self-esteem is very healthy and necessary for proper development. I say hogwash! In psychology, if someone is having problems, self-esteem is the first place psychologist look. Raise self-esteem and you will diminish negative behaviors. The problem is that we are addicted to self-esteem. Let something bad happen to self-esteem and look out, the individual crashes emotionally. Self-esteem leads to pride and other sins; esteem leads to LOVE and other virtues.

“We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.” –Romans 6:6

Any thoughts?

It’s absolutely possible for one to esteem oneself very highly and be absolutely wrong in their self-estimation. Any of numerous notorious characters throughout history or people we’re personally familiar with for that matter who’ve thought enough of themselves and their own opinions and righteousness to rule over others tyrannically or torture or abuse or commit one crime or another against other people should suffice to serve witness to this fact. A gang member gains self-esteem by killing someone.

Maybe I’m using the term incorrectly-by associating it with pride, but I think it should be noted that the human values, themselves, which may be used to weigh ones self worth or self esteem can be highly skewed.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m also a psychologist, and I differ with your view of what self-esteem is. Although it has been defined in various ways, my understanding of self-esteem is self-knowledge which leads to an honest self-evaluation or appraisal of one’s thoughts, emotions, drives, and behaviors. Thus one is able to become aware of one’s strengths as well as one’s limitations, and one can learn to take responsibility for improving oneself, while at the same time not taking blame for everything that goes wrong in situations which are beyond one’s control. People who lack self-esteem tend to blame themselves for everything bad in their life and often are unable to distinguish between what they can and cannot change. They also fail to differentiate their strengths from their weaknesses, and instead simply resign themselves to the course of events rather than actively participating to influence those events. Self-esteem does NOT mean a sense of superiority or a prideful arrogance which pays no attention to the needs of others. In fact, it means just the opposite. Sometimes the term low self-esteem is used to denote people who exhibit such arrogance, when, in reality, such people have no self-knowledge or self-appraisal understanding, rather than low self-esteem.

I’m with you. There is no situation in which being false with yourself is a virtuous thing. I like the C.S. Lewis quote from The Screwtape Letters (Letter 14):

"*You must therefore conceal from the patient the true end of Humility. Let him think of it not as self-forgetfulness but as a certain kind of opinion (namely, a low opinion) of his own talents and character.

Some talents, I gather, he really has. Fix in his mind the idea that humility consists in trying to believe those talents to be less valuable than he believes them to be. No doubt they are in fact less valuable than he believes, but that is not the point. The great thing is to make him value an opinion for some quality other than truth, thus introducing an element of dishonesty and make-believe into the heart of what otherwise threatens to become a virtue. By this method thousands of humans have been brought to think that humility means pretty women trying to believe they are ugly and clever men trying to believe they are fools. And since what they are trying to believe may, in some cases, be manifest nonsense, they cannot succeed in believing it and we have the chance of keeping their minds endlessly revolving on themselves in an effort to achieve the impossible. To anticipate the Enemy’s strategy, we must consider His aims…His whole effort…will be to get the man’s mind off the subject of his own value altogether. He would rather the man thought himself a great architect or a great poet and then forgot about it, than that he should spend much time and pains trying to think himself a bad one. Your efforts to instill either vainglory or false modesty into the patient will therefore be met from the Enemy’s side with the obvious reminder that a man is not usually called upon to have an opinion of his own talents at all, since he can very well go on improving them to the best of his ability without deciding on his own precise niche in the temple of Fame*."

The problem is not that people were taught that it was damaging to have an artificially low estimate of their own worth, any more than it was wrong in the past to teach that it is damagin to have an artificially high estimate of one’s own worth. While thinking too much of yourself can lead to the sin of pride, thinking too little of yourself can likewise lead both to sloth, lack of courage, and even despair. In other cases, as you say, it can lead to a false exterior of bravado that comes across as pride. It is far better to do an honest self-evaluation and then turn your mind’s business to other matters. True low-self esteem is always sabotaging a person’s call to be obedient.

This quote demonstrates what I mean:

Humility which does not produce generosity is false, because true humility, after it has said, “I can do nothing, I am good for nothing,” must immediately give way to a generosity of spirit which says, “There is nothing nor can there be anything I cannot do if I place all my faith in God.” The humble soul, relying on this confidence, with great courage takes up anything that is commanded.

–St. Francis de Sales, Spiritual Treatises

Generosity of heart does not come from the soul that is convinced that it is too impoverished to have anything to give. Yet generosity of heart is exactly what is required to live the Christian life. Therefore, a proper sense of self-esteem is not only OK, it is necessary.

 

[manualman]

I’m not a psychologist (nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night), but that never stops me from having an opinion.

I think most people hear the term ‘self-esteem’ and define it as how one ranks oneself in comparison with others. That’s probably not the medical definition, but I think it is most commonly the one Joe Sixpack uses.

If that is the definition we are using, I agree with the OP. It is not part of the christian worldview to ensure that each person considers himself ‘better’ than the average schmuck out there and quantifies that to himself often.

On the contrary, we are called to recognize the dignity God granted EACH of us via the gift of being in His image and likeness. Yeah, this potentially creates the old canard “everybody is special = nobody’s special.” (apologies to ‘The Incredibles’ movie). But the fact is that each one of us was custom crafted by the Creator of the universe, who has a unique purpose for us.

That’s good enough for me!

 

[Pug]

What is your definition of self-esteem? I view self-esteem as the internalization of the self-mastery over one’s environment.

What is self-mastery over one’s environment? The idea of mastery (not self-mastery) over one’s environment means some type of control of the things around you, at least those things which are normally within a human being’s control, I assume? Like maybe the ability to manipulate objects? The idea of self-mastery is about mastering one’s self, like not having uncontrolled outbursts of emotion?

And what is internalization of all this? Noticing that you can manipulate an object like a car? Noticing that you haven’t had emotional outbursts in awhile, that whatever program of control you have adopted is a functional method of control?

I do not see how a human being can escape noticing if a program is working or not. One must pay attention to see if whatever one is doing works or if it needs to be altered. Like a diet. One must decide if it works, or if you need to try a different diet or different behaviors. Or like remembering. If you keep forgetting things, you need to embark upon behavior change to help you remember. If the calendar is not working for you, maybe you need duplicate calendars, one upstairs and one down. How can we get by without evaluating things like this?

How does your idea of only being focused outward (extroversion of some sort) work with a traditional nightly examination of conscience?

I have no confidence that I am understanding the idea you wish to convey.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Now, since I am sensing a troll, I will not be contributing to this thread any longer.

So much for humility, open-mindedness, and a willingness to learn!

 

[Robert_Sock]

It’s absolutely possible for one to esteem oneself very highly and be absolutely wrong in their self-estimation. Any of numerous notorious characters throughout history or people we’re personally familiar with for that matter who’ve thought enough of themselves and their own opinions and righteousness to rule over others tyrannically or torture or abuse or commit one crime or another against other people should suffice to serve witness to this fact. A gang member gains self-esteem by killing someone.

Maybe I’m using the term incorrectly-by associating it with pride, but I think it should be noted that the human values, themselves, which may be used to weigh ones self worth or self esteem can be highly skewed.

Yes, self-esteem can involve pride, and it can become highly skewed. Depressed people usually have more accurate assessments of oneself than do non-depressed counterparts! This is why I’m arguing for high esteem in righteousness over regular self-esteem. I’m anti self, and view it as an evil. The self is everywhere in psychology.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, self-esteem can involve pride, and it can become highly skewed. Depressed people usually have more accurate assessments of oneself than do non-depressed counterparts! This is why I’m arguing for high esteem in righteousness over regular self-esteem. I’m anti self, and view it as an evil. The self is everywhere in psychology.

I may be on-board with your idea, but maybe not with your terminology. The term “anti-self” is still too self-occupied, though, don’t you think? Depressed people may have a very low self-assessment, but they still do a lot of self-assessing! Who is edified by being around someone who is pre-occupied with dwelling on their low view of themselves? How much charitable work is done by someone who thinks they aren’t worth giving and receiving love and they have nothing worth contributing to others? It may be “accurate”, in some sense, but depression seems a great handicap to practicing virtue.

Healthy people living virtuous lives just don’t spend that much time considering themselves. Love of God and neighbor occupy them too much to spend too much time or energy concerning themselves with themselves.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I may be on-board with your idea, but maybe not with your terminology. The term “anti-self” is still too self-occupied, though, don’t you think? Depressed people may have a very low self-assessment, but they still do a lot of self-assessing! Who is edified by being around someone who is pre-occupied with dwelling on their low view of themselves? How much charitable work is done by someone who thinks they aren’t worth giving and receiving love and they have nothing worth contributing to others? It may be “accurate”, in some sense, but depression seems a great handicap to practicing virtue.

Healthy people living virtuous lives just don’t spend that much time considering themselves. Love of God and neighbor occupy them too much to spend too much time or energy concerning themselves with themselves.

My statement of depressed people having a more accurate assessments of themselves was simply meant as a matter-of-fact statement. My contention is in high esteem towards righteousness over self-esteem. Such people are well adjusted and may easily engage in charitable works. My other contention, although beyond the scope of this thread, is that the “self” is an evil and people should avoid it.

 

[EasterJoy]

My statement of depressed people having a more accurate assessments of themselves was simply meant as a matter-of-fact statement. My contention is in high esteem towards righteousness over self-esteem. Such people are well adjusted and may easily engage in charitable works. My other contention, although beyond the scope of this thread, is that the “self” is an evil and people should avoid it.

Still, if a person is, practically speaking, “anti-self”, rather than forgetful of self, I think that person will be less able to act virtuously, never mind how much they “esteem” virtue. After all, the estimation of something is no act of virtue: “*You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?” *James 2:19-20

Therefore, a view of self which is positive but not puffed up, and does not impede love of neighbor–Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but (also) everyone for those of others (Phil.2:3-4)–is probably necessary for the practice of charity. You can’t love unless you see yourself as beloved of God and as being an appropriate target for God’s grace. That is the kind of positive self-esteem that is wanted. As you imply, a negative self-esteem that nevertheless puts you at the center of the universe is worse than nothing. It doesn’t recommend you to acts of righteousness, but only ruins you for doing good.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Still, if a person is, practically speaking, “anti-self”, rather than forgetful of self, I think that person will be less able to act virtuously, never mind how much they “esteem” virtue. After all, the estimation of something is no act of virtue: “*You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?” *James 2:19-20

Therefore, a view of self which is positive but not puffed up, and does not impede love of neighbor–Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but (also) everyone for those of others (Phil.2:3-4)–is probably necessary for the practice of charity. You can’t love unless you see yourself as beloved of God and as being an appropriate target for God’s grace. That is the kind of positive self-esteem that is wanted. As you imply, a negative self-esteem that nevertheless puts you at the center of the universe is worse than nothing. It doesn’t recommend you to acts of righteousness, but only ruins you for doing good.

“We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.” –Romans 6:6
I take this passage literally. A person should put the “self” to death. The “old self” is evil in my estimation, and the above quote from Romans bear this out.

 

[EasterJoy]

“We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.” –Romans 6:6
I take this passage literally. A person should put the “self” to death. The “old self” is evil in my estimation, and the above quote from Romans bear this out.

Well, not literally literally…you’re not abolishing your individual personality.

If one reads on, it is explained what is meant. He is not talking about killing one’s identity, but rather denouncing one’s natural carnal enslavement to sin:

Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires. And do not present the parts of your bodies to sin as weapons for wickedness, but present yourselves to God as raised from the dead to life and the parts of your bodies to God as weapons for righteousness. Rom. 6:11-13

and

"For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin." Rom. 7:22-25

 

[Robert_Sock]

Well, not literally literally…you’re not abolishing your individual personality.

If one reads on, it is explained what is meant. He is not talking about killing one’s identity, but rather denouncing one’s natural carnal enslavement to sin:

Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires. And do not present the parts of your bodies to sin as weapons for wickedness, but present yourselves to God as raised from the dead to life and the parts of your bodies to God as weapons for righteousness. Rom. 6:11-13

and

“For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.” Rom. 7:22-25

You still have the “old self” crucified and the sin being a result of the mortal body. I admit that these passages do not foretell the killing of the “self” in the absolute sense, but that’s still where I’m coming from as a psychologist. I do not believe that we will have a “self” in Heaven the way we have a “self” in this world. In Heaven there may be a separation of souls, but there will be perfect harmony between them. In Heaven, I believe there will be a high esteem toward righteousness just the way I propose a high esteem for righteousness here in this world. In Heaven there will be no need for self esteem per se as for there will be no comparison between separate souls. In summary, I still feel that death to “self” and high esteem towards righteousness (and seeking a perfect harmony between souls) is the way to go here in this world.

 

[EasterJoy]

You still have the “old self” crucified and the sin being a result of the mortal body. I admit that these passages do not foretell the killing of the “self” in the absolute sense, but that’s still where I’m coming from as a psychologist. I do not believe that we will have a “self” in Heaven the way we have a “self” in this world. In Heaven there may be a separation of souls, but there will be perfect harmony between them. In Heaven, I believe there will be a high esteem toward righteousness just the way I propose a high esteem for righteousness here in this world. In Heaven there will be no need for self esteem per se as for there will be no comparison between separate souls. In summary, I still feel that death to “self” and high esteem towards righteousness (and seeking a perfect harmony between souls) is the way to go here in this world.

Considering that we believe in the communion of the saints, and that the saints are the most beautifully individual individuals you’re likely to ever run across, I don’t believe that you’ve put it quite the way I think you mean it.

The “old self” that needs to die is a false construct, don’t you think? It is the need to measure up, the need to be made something of, the need to be noticed, the need to feel pleasure in order to feel alive. If you kill that, you’re not killing your self. You’re allowing God to liberate it, so you can be the person God made you to be.

Again, from CS Lewis’ Screwtape: “He wants to kill their animal self-love as soon as possible; but it is His long-term policy, I fear, to restore to them a new kind of self-love—a charity and gratitude for all selves, including their own; when they have really learned to love their neighbours as themselves, they will be allowed to love themselves as their neighbours.”

 

[Robert_Sock]

Considering that we believe in the communion of the saints, and that the saints are the most beautifully individual individuals you’re likely to ever run across, I don’t believe that you’ve put it quite the way I think you mean it.

The “old self” that needs to die is a false construct, don’t you think? It is the need to measure up, the need to be made something of, the need to be noticed, the need to feel pleasure in order to feel alive. If you kill that, you’re not killing your self. You’re allowing God to liberate it, so you can be the person God made you to be.

Again, from CS Lewis’ Screwtape: “He wants to kill their animal self-love as soon as possible; but it is His long-term policy, I fear, to restore to them a new kind of self-love—a charity and gratitude for all selves, including their own; when they have really learned to love their neighbours as themselves, they will be allowed to love themselves as their neighbours.”

I believe the “self” needs to be minimized while a high esteem towards righteousness needs to be maximized. It’s an introversion of human consciousness vs and extroversion of human consciousness, respectively.

I’m not sure I’m following you, but it sounds like we are talking about the basically the same process but using different constructs. I see the “old self” as a real construct that needs to die. On the other hand, I can see where we could use a slightly different scenario where we use the lower-ordered self as something that dies while a higher-ordered self is developed. However, for me it’s the development of an ego that’s based on an extroverted LOVE towards others instead of an introverted self-love or self-esteem.

 

[JSiDigital]

I believe the “self” needs to be minimized while a high esteem towards righteousness needs to be maximized. It’s an introversion of human consciousness vs and extroversion of human consciousness, respectively.

I for one agree with you Robert Sock (Not entirely, but i do believe you are on to something here).

For years i struggled with low self-esteem and tried it all. Workshops, psychologists, medication, etc. Nothing worked. All spoke the same mumbo jumbo. However, one thing i noticed. No saint in history had any high self-esteem! Yet, they all had an extremely high-esteem as you say.

Finally, how did i change my views? How did i get out of that low self esteem? By helping others, by helping my community, by ignoring the selfish me. All those psychologists wanted me to see myself like a God when in reality what i portrayed as a low self-esteem was not really that at all. God wanted me to do for others and complete trust him. Forget about myself and trust him.

Now, please dont get me wrong here, this does not mean i totally lost it. On the contrary. Helping others means listening to them. Praying for them and giving them advise. As I gave them advise i listened to myself. I listened to God acting through me and realized that i was not doing this either, so i did it. I helped others and that involved leaving my worldly ambitions to help my community. To do this, it does not mean I totally became a train wreck that didnt plan for the future! When i had low self-esteem, i didnt see the need to plan for a dead routine future. However, when helping the community, I saw a need to schedule retreats, talks, conferences and more activities to help my community. I had to learn to balance a budget and before i knew it, i was planning years in advance. This also had an effect on my personal life. I started doing this on my personal life without even realizing it. What was different? Trust in GOD, not in my SELF. I knew it was the holy spirit working through me which gave me strength and courage.

As Robert Sock says, there was no selfishness and God gave me my own self worth and dignity without me even knowing it. A year or two after my depression days and low self-esteem, i realized what had happened. I trusted in God and he took care of me like he takes care of the birds and animals of his creation. I did what he wanted without the self and he organized all that which was disastrous in the past. He gave me NO self esteem and gave me only a high esteem and human dignity.

What I have noticed is that when the talk of high self-esteem comes up, we become very much “relativistic”. I dont want to hear this because not being selfish puts more pressure on me. Because that would mean that i no longer control my life but God does. Because we are all called to be saints but in this moment in time its not my moment.

No saint ever had high self-esteem, but all saints in history have had a tremendous high-esteem towards life and a most admirable dignity. Remember that self-esteem is a new term used in psychology. DO NOT fall into relativism when defining it.

FYI, i returned to some doctors and took the same written tests and some interviews. Turns out they say i now have a high self esteem! And i replied “NO I DONT. I have dignity” (and that is in the catechism of the catholic church; self esteem is nowhere in the catechism).

Now if you ask me, do I suffer from low self-esteem? I would answer yes i do. Thank God that I do because only with a low self-esteem (what society calls valuable), can i serve God with high esteem towards my community and hence serve God with the dignity that he created me to have. That does not mean i do not value myself, for I am a child of God and i am his light upon my community. It is not what society calls high or low esteem. God does not see me any other way than with love. Why must we label high and low self view? There is no other better thing that human dignity. Human dignity is not self centered and caters to the community. Human dignity is in the catechism while self-esteem is not.

The definition of Self-esteem can lead to a much more dangerous sin/vise than selfishness. It leads to relativism.

Defining dignity however, will lead to saints.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Bookcat]

Self -esteem does not exist…

Having a realistic notion of oneself… knowing ones good points in humility etc…and the fact that one is created and loved by God…and that one is thus by Jesus Christ are a new creation etc…